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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 24 2016, 9:53am
Post #1 of 14
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Tolkien and the art of NOT explaining
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There is a lot in Middle-earth that goes unexplained. I've come to the conclusion that this is an important part of what makes the stories intriguing.
One effect is as if the storyteller (within the fiction, the Hobbits and their various translators and editors: or, Tolkien, really) knows a lot more than they are saying at this point. Of course, sometimes that's true in real-life. : a very large amount of work was left unpublished when Tolkien died, and has since been prepared for publication by Tolkien scholars (principally Christopher Tolkien). So we now have Tolkien's reasonably settled thoughts on many matters, along with information on many discarded plot lines, and writing where perhaps he hadn't quite made his mind up yet.
Other matters remain a mystery- quite possibly they remained a mystery to Tolkien himself. I think that's a risky method of writing (readers might just be puzzled, or accuse the author of unfairly inventing his way out of problems). But when it works, my does it work.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jul 24 2016, 10:35pm
Post #3 of 14
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Partly indecisive, partly imitating real mythology and the real world.
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While his personal writings betray that he didn't always make up his mind about the answer to his own mysteries, I wonder how much was deliberate imitation of the real world. All those mysteries give us a lot of fun trying to find answers to them, and Middle-earth seems more familiar as a result. Real-world mysteries still abound: why exactly did Rome fall? (Even though its decline and fall are well-documented, dozens of interpretations compete for "the real reason.") And what happened to the English settlement at Roanoke, and why did someone write Croatoan on a post as a cryptic message? Spin around for centuries, and no one knows why.
Then in the mythology of the real-world, there are often conflicting stories given for the same god or mythic hero, usually because different regions or cities had their preferred version, or maybe the saga was altered over time, so there is no clear to end to some stories. Those loose ends parallel the mythology underlying Middle-earth, again summoning up a sense of the familiar. Shelob's fate in particular jumps out at me as quite a teaser, and the author is explicit that he won't give it away.
Shelob was gone; and whether she lay long in her lair, nursing her malice and her misery, and in slow years of darkness healed herself from within, rebuilding her clustered eyes, until with hunger like death she spun once more her dreadful snares in the glens of the Mountains of Shadow, this tale does not tell.
I prefer to think that she died from Sam's wounds. Serves her right!
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jul 25 2016, 2:18pm
Post #4 of 14
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Leaving large parts of your fictional wold unexplained and unexplored leaves that much more room for the reader to play.
...to overlay their own experience and viewpoints. To relate to a place or character.
It leaves room for the rest of us to come play in Middle Earth, to draw, paint, write and become part of this great mythology.
bigger on the inside...
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...
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enanito
Rohan
Jul 26 2016, 1:26am
Post #6 of 14
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If I had a nickel for every author I've read who has tried to create that sense of mystery, or larger-than-life, or what have you -- and has simply left me with a sense of plot holes or haphazard storytelling -- I'd have quite the heavy coin purse!
It's truly art -- sometimes you just can't quantify what makes it work, but you know it when you see it.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 26 2016, 10:01am
Post #7 of 14
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Part of the difficulty is persuading the readers that they want to play...
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If the readers decide that you are faking it (e.g. you are writing 'cargo cult' Tolkien; going through the observed forms, but without any deep understanding) they won't want to ply. The same if they decide that the story is inconsistent, full of plot holes or haphazard, as you say.
Some of it is how the reader feels too. As a teenager I read and enjoyed the first three Dune novels (Frank Herbert). The first one starts with a very challenging total immersion for the reader into a story-world of complex clan politics, 'lore', and selective breeding with the aim of producing a messiah. On my first read, it sort-of worked for me: the "what IS going on?" feeling echoes the feelings that the protagonist might be having. But I tried to re-read the book more recently and didn't have any patience for it.
On the other hand, I really liked Riddley Walker (by Russell Hoban). The book is written in an alternative spelling of English and I expected to find that to be an insurmountable affectation. But in fact, I thought it was a brilliant literary device - and in the service of the story rather than giving me the feeling that the author was tediously mistaking obscurity for cleverness. I have written more about my reactions to Riddley Walker elsewhere http://chrisj-rr-baker.livejournal.com/1097.html
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jul 26 2016, 10:10am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 26 2016, 3:43pm
Post #9 of 14
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I perhaps should have explained my " 'cargo cult' Tolkien" phrase more (or used a different phrase). I was thinking of it as a way that I might explain to myself why a story has failed for me, when what has happened is that:
The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again,looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside."
(JRR Tolkien, On Fairy Stories)
So it is at that point that I am disenchanted, wonder why it is not working for me, and might notice that I think the author has assembled a bunch of tried and trusted tricks without much spark to them. But (as Tolkien explains in the same essay) whether or when that happens depends a lot upon the individual reader and their likes and expectations.
I see that my comments could be thought to be damning perfectly entertaining and good stories for failing to conform to Tolkien's particular (and very peculiar) method - or that of any other author. That would be a sort of literary snobbery, and I didn't mean to do that.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jul 27 2016, 1:30am
Post #10 of 14
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I don't think anyone thought you were being snobbish.
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There is a lot of cheap drivel out there written to imitate Tolkien, and it's not good writing and disappoints most people, and it's perfectly okay to acknowledge that reality.
It's why I'm VERY picky about fantasy novels, because so many are hack jobs on Tolkien, and I have a limited amount of time to read and don't want to waste it on something sure to let me down.
Something you said made me think outside of TORN:
But (as Tolkien explains in the same essay) whether or when that happens depends a lot upon the individual reader and their likes and expectations. I've known plenty of people who like good story-telling who could never get into Tolkien, leaving me baffled. Like I was pointing at a famous painting full of vivid colors and they only saw a piece of gray canvas--it's amazing how individual readers do react, and how can our perceptions be so profoundly different? But no one is a passive reader and we in fact pick up a book with a list of demands/requests/pleas for the author to do something for us, and that passel of expectations seems as uniquely configured as our DNA.
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Jul 27 2016, 2:36am
Post #11 of 14
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I have wondered the same thing from time to time.
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Something you said made me think outside of TORN: But (as Tolkien explains in the same essay) whether or when that happens depends a lot upon the individual reader and their likes and expectations. I've known plenty of people who like good story-telling who could never get into Tolkien, leaving me baffled. Like I was pointing at a famous painting full of vivid colors and they only saw a piece of gray canvas--it's amazing how individual readers do react, and how can our perceptions be so profoundly different? But no one is a passive reader and we in fact pick up a book with a list of demands/requests/pleas for the author to do something for us, and that passel of expectations seems as uniquely configured as our DNA.
Maybe not so much a gray canvas, but a canvas splattered with a myriad of colors that they weren't able to make sense of? Or a canvas that was like one of those funky mosaic art things where thousands of tiny pictures make up one big one; perhaps all they can see is the large picture, missing the subtleties of the many smaller images it is composed from.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 27 2016, 10:03am
Post #12 of 14
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It's certainly a hazard in this kind of conversation
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I think that all a person can do is to give their honest reaction to a work. For discussion, you have to go beyond "I Really Like It" or "It's Rubbish", but it can be quite hard to explain further.
The "snobbery" risks are that "I think it is good" sounds like (or is) a claim that something is objectively good. Or that my feeling that something is superior sounds as if it is based on my feeling that I would know, because I am (in some way) superior. Some people do come across like that: if I can't see the obvious merits of the thing they favour, then this must be a fault in me!
One of the many ways in which readers (or listeners,watchers...) are different is the amount of tolerance for mystery (something that is left unexplained for the reader to figure) as opposed to puzzle (something that is either explained explicitly by the storyteller or made so that a definite answer can be deduced by the audience). Some people (in my experience) really seem to dislike that 'mystery' effect and some (including me) really like it, provided thing make sense in some way or another, which need not be analytical and logical.
(More about puzzles versus mysteries - I was obviously thinking on all this about a year ago: http://chrisj-rr-baker.livejournal.com/1753.html )
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 27 2016, 10:48am
Post #13 of 14
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"Strange are the ways of Men, Legolas!"
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"‘Strange are the ways of Men, Legolas! Here they have one of the marvels of the Northern World, and what do they say of it? Caves, they say! Caves! Holes to fly to in time of war, to store fodder in! My good Legolas, do you know that the caverns of Helm’s Deep are vast and beautiful? There would be an endless pilgrimage of Dwarves, merely to gaze at them, if such things were known to be. Aye indeed, they would pay pure gold for a brief glance!’"
Sometimes it is hard to get others to see a thing the way you do. Even Legolas takes some time to 'get it' - perhaps because he didn't realise that dwarves have a sensibility to beauty (possibly- whisper it softly - different to but not inferior to that of the elves). Maybe it is similar when someone doesn't like LOTR!
I mentioned Riddley Walker earlier. I read that on an enthusiastic recommendation from someone who would try LOTR in return. I found Riddley Walker absolutely wonderful, but sadly I don't think LOTR was an equivalent success for the other party.
As for Legolas and Gimli, I like to think the two of them made their planned trip to Fangorn and Aglarond, and that each was able to help the other to appreciate both.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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dreamflower
Lorien
Jul 31 2016, 1:11pm
Post #14 of 14
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It was part of his process to pass it on.
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JRRT intended his stories to be thought of as myth. Part of the process of myth is that they are embellished and expanded by many hearts and minds over the course of time.
The myths JRRT most admired were part of an oral tradition in which each story became more with each story-teller. Our modern myths are also subject to the same process, though they come to us through different media. Look at our modern pantheon of heroes: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, X-Men. They began their existence as stories told by a committee of authors and artists for comic books, and with each generation were re-interpreted by more comic books, and by dramatic interpretations in the movies and on TV.
And by fanfiction.
I consider myself a part of that tradition when I write fanfiction, filling in those mysterious gaps he left for others to fill in. My own explorations of the text are out there, and so are many others, who may have differing interpretations of the story and what it means to them.
I hope he's pleased to know that his original idea of turning his tales into a myth for others to enjoy has come true beyond his wildest dreams in his own lifetime. And I hope he can look down and see how much his work has entered into the mythology of the world at large.
Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.
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