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StingingFly
Lorien
Jul 22 2016, 3:52pm
Post #1 of 21
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The Smaug-Sauron Alliance
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Although alluded to, I see no clear evidence of a Smaug-Sauron alliance.
I will offer two points of reason against such an alliance.
#1) Sauron has nothing to offer Smaug.
Smaug has everything he wants. He is his own master. He basically just wants to be left alone to sleep on his treasure hoard. Getting involved in world conquest is a dangerous proposition, even for a dragon.
#2) Sauron isn't powerful enough to command Smaug.
So, Smaug doesn't want to wake up and go to war. Sauron could just order him...not so fast! I would argue that Smaug is equal to or greater than Sauron in his current form.
Remember how Smaug regards the Ring? He knows Bilbo has it and doesn't even bother trying to take it. If he treats the One Ring with so little regard, how do you think he views Sauron?
Smaug claims "I am Death!" He views himself as an entity beyond equal, not as Sauron's minion.
Thoughts?
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Jul 22 2016, 3:59pm
Post #2 of 21
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Smaug seems perfectly happy with his huge gold pile. What could Sauron promise him, a bigger gold pile? It doesn't seem worth it for Smaug to leave his treasure hoard and go fight a war.
I know in book canon the Dragons of the First Age were allied with Morgoth, but so were the Spiders, and Shelob explicitly doesn't work for Sauron, so there's no compelling reason Smaug necessarily would.
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LSF
Gondor
Jul 22 2016, 4:37pm
Post #3 of 21
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"If he treats the One Ring with so little regard, how do you think he views Sauron?" Does he know it's the Ring? I got the impression that there are several magic rings in the world, most being harmless like turning you invisible with no ill effects. Smaug knows it's gold and it's magic, but other than that?
Or if he does know, maybe he would purposely not try to pursue it, because that knowledge could give Bilbo the advantage in their conversation.
As for why he would ally with Sauron... Smaug knows people aren't going to let him sit in Erebor forever, that someone will come to challenge him, perhaps people who have black arrows and other means to do it. With Sauron sending Azog and army to Erebor (I don't see Sauron or Azog really caring about the gold too much), it's protection for himself and his hoard. Besides, it would probably do well to ally with the rising ancient evil, than to be seen as a potential threat to it.
Though Necromancer Sauron vs Smaug is a fight I'd like to see 
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 22 2016, 7:51pm
Post #4 of 21
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The dragons of the First Age were bred by Morgoth....
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...they were his creatures. I'd say that means that it's not really a question of alliance because that implies a free will. Morgoth's creatures serve his will. In the way that the Nazgul serve Sauron's will and are bound to it.
I don't really see any point in arguing the toss about whether Smaug would or wouldn't join Sauron if asked because the story Tolkien told when he set about deepening the background to 'The Hobbit' leaves no doubt that Smaug would - or at least, that the risk that he would was too great to leave him in possession of the Mountain. Gandalf knew Sauron was almost ready to come out into the open and he believed that Sauron's first target would be Lorien and Rivendell, taking advantage of the power vacuum in the north left by the destruction of Dale and Erebor. 'The dragon Sauron might use to terrible effect. . . I must find some means of dealing with Smaug.' That's Gandalf in 'The Quest of Erebor' [Unfinished Tales] and that's the story Tolkien told.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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StingingFly
Lorien
Jul 23 2016, 1:54am
Post #5 of 21
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The operative word is might...
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It is an interesting idea, the alliance, I just can't see it using my understanding of movie Smaug, for the points listed above.
That Gandalf wants to get rid of both Smaug and the Necromancer is understandable. They are both threats to the free world, but where is the evidence they are working together.
For example, when hiking in the Rocky Mountains my main fears were being ambushed by a mountain lion and mauled by a bear. That doesn't mean that they were working together, but were both things I needed to be mindful of. Though if they did team up, I would be in a heap of trouble.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 23 2016, 7:31am
Post #6 of 21
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Gandalf launches the quest for Erebor because the use Sauron might make of Smaug is simply too great a risk to take.
For what it's worth, I don't think the problem is movie Smaug. I think it's book Smaug, faithfully reproduced in the movie. It's the disconnect between the tone of the original book and the story as re-worked by Tolkien. Smaug the cultivated, charming, riddle-loving lounge-lizard is also a killer but that doesn't stop him being rather endearing - remember Bilbo saying towards the end that he almost wished 'old Smaug' had been able to keep his treasure? Hard to imagine any character saying that about Glaurung - and Gandalf's vision of the fate of the north if Smaug isn't eliminated is recasting Smaug in the Glaurung mould.
The difference between Sauron and Smaug in Middle Earth and your mountain lion and bear is that Sauron and Smaug are both corrupted wills. the one chose evil, the other was bred for it, and evil calls to evil. Your lion and bear are simply free, independent creatures living their own lives. As far as they're concerned, you're just dinner.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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StingingFly
Lorien
Jul 23 2016, 6:00pm
Post #7 of 21
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For me, I just don't put Sauron on the level of Melkor, especially in his weakened, bodiless, form. Sauron didn't create Smaug, who owes him nothing. In the same way, I'm not sure that Sauron could command Durin's Bane, but I am no Tolkien scholar.
I do hope to one day see 'old Glaurung' on screen. PJ and co. can really let their imaginations run wild if they ever get a hold of the rights. Melkor and Glaurung would be a much more terrifying alliance.
(This post was edited by StingingFly on Jul 23 2016, 6:01pm)
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Jul 24 2016, 5:43am
Post #8 of 21
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The difference between Sauron and Smaug in Middle Earth and your mountain lion and bear is that Sauron and Smaug are both corrupted wills. the one chose evil, the other was bred for it, and evil calls to evil. Your lion and bear are simply free, independent creatures living their own lives. As far as they're concerned, you're just dinner.
But in Middle-Earth, villains don't always work together. Shelob, for instance, is explicitly stated not to be in Sauron's service. I would expect Smaug to be even more independently minded than her, so I just took Gandalf's suspicions as just that - suspicions. We'll never know if Smaug would actually feel inclined to leave his lair and go to war, but Gandalf feared the possibility either way.
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 24 2016, 12:38pm
Post #9 of 21
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Though book Shelob is not in Sauron’s service, he does make use of her as a kind of ally and I read the LotR movie situation to be similar.
It's true that there is no real evidence in the movieverse that Smaug and Sauron are allied and likely Sauron could not command or compel the dragon. But there are hints of a connection between the two, like the captive Orc’s reference to the world burning and Smaug knowing of “Oakenshield”.
Even if there is no actual alliance, Sauron could still make use could of the dragon’s mere presence, hanging like a cloud of doom over the north. Even a non-aggression pact would be bad. Smaug could have come forth for any number of reasons: maybe he would see an opportunity to acquire even more treasure or was bored and would like to have some fun killing and terrorizing. Maybe evil does call to evil, and Smaug would say to himself “That Sauron is my kind of guy.”
The Orcs set out from Dol Guldur for Erebor, and presumably didn’t anticipate getting incinerated when they arrived. Gandalf outright feared an alliance between the Necromancer and Smaug and sought to prevent it by removing the dragon, so obviously he felt it was possible. That’s good enough for me..
On another topic, what I took from the Inside Information scene in DOS was that Smaug perceived that Bilbo possessed an object of power, especially because it was made of gold, but either didn’t realize that it was the One Ring or didn’t care.
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moreorless
Gondor
Aug 7 2016, 6:00am
Post #10 of 21
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You could argue Shelob is a very different situation...
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The difference between Sauron and Smaug in Middle Earth and your mountain lion and bear is that Sauron and Smaug are both corrupted wills. the one chose evil, the other was bred for it, and evil calls to evil. Your lion and bear are simply free, independent creatures living their own lives. As far as they're concerned, you're just dinner. But in Middle-Earth, villains don't always work together. Shelob, for instance, is explicitly stated not to be in Sauron's service. I would expect Smaug to be even more independently minded than her, so I just took Gandalf's suspicions as just that - suspicions. We'll never know if Smaug would actually feel inclined to leave his lair and go to war, but Gandalf feared the possibility either way.
If we take the view that Dragons might be somehow "bound" to Sauron as they were created by Morgoth then I think Shelob being more independent does make sense. She is after all a child of Ungoliant who was not created by Morgoth but rather some kind of primordial spirit of hunger/darkness who he allied with.
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Ailsa
The Shire
Aug 13 2016, 1:43am
Post #11 of 21
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My take is that Smaug stayed in Erebor so long because he wanted to guard his loot. For a corrupt mind greed can have no ending, and this dragon had "Dragon Sickness". He won't part with one single coin. Sauron can offer security for his hoard. Then Smaug can go off to steal more gold.
To me, Smaug's interest in Bilbo's ring is that it is made of gold, and he wants it.
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Ailsa
The Shire
Aug 13 2016, 2:06am
Post #12 of 21
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My take is that Smaug stayed in Erebor so long because he wanted to guard his loot. For a corrupt mind greed can have no ending, and this dragon had "Dragon Sickness". He won't part with one single coin. Sauron can offer security for his hoard. Then Smaug can go off to steal more gold.
To me, Smaug's interest in Bilbo's ring is that it is made of gold, and he wants it.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 13 2016, 7:00am
Post #13 of 21
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You posted all that just above. What did you mean to say about Shelob?
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Ailsa
The Shire
Aug 14 2016, 12:20am
Post #14 of 21
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!!!!! Foiled by the glitch!!!!! I meant to say:
1. Sauron was satisfied by Shelob's location whose lair helped guard the "back alley" entrance to Mordor. He did not have to make a deal with her. Or, alternatively, maybe he did, and that is why her lair is at that spot. Presumably, Sauron considers a few Orcs that might be lost as Shelob's dinner is an acceptable price for her "guard service".
2. Sauron had the 9 Men's Rings of Power and several Dwarf's Rings of Power. We do not know their capabilities, but using them he might have been able to have some control over animals and natural phenomena and maybe even people (pure speculation here). So, he may have been able to exert influence over Shelob by this method.
3. Even without the rings, Sauron was a manipulative fellow. He convinced Saruman and Denethor that resistance was hopeless. (And remember - Saruman was a master sweet talker himself.) So, Sauron could have talked/manipulated Shelob into cooperating.
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moreorless
Gondor
Aug 22 2016, 3:48pm
Post #15 of 21
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!!!!! Foiled by the glitch!!!!! I meant to say:
1. Sauron was satisfied by Shelob's location whose lair helped guard the "back alley" entrance to Mordor. He did not have to make a deal with her. Or, alternatively, maybe he did, and that is why her lair is at that spot. Presumably, Sauron considers a few Orcs that might be lost as Shelob's dinner is an acceptable price for her "guard service".
2. Sauron had the 9 Men's Rings of Power and several Dwarf's Rings of Power. We do not know their capabilities, but using them he might have been able to have some control over animals and natural phenomena and maybe even people (pure speculation here). So, he may have been able to exert influence over Shelob by this method.
3. Even without the rings, Sauron was a manipulative fellow. He convinced Saruman and Denethor that resistance was hopeless. (And remember - Saruman was a master sweet talker himself.) So, Sauron could have talked/manipulated Shelob into cooperating.
The power of the ring is never exactly qualified of course beyond the ability to control the Nazgul. We also have a situation where Sauron already has what he wants from Shelob without any coercion.
Again though I think Shelob and Smaug are obviously very different in both background and nature. The Dragons were created by Sauron's former master were as Ungoliant was not so some innate ability for Sauron to influence them makes more sense.
Beyond that as well I think Shelob like Ungoliant represents something far more primal. Smaug is a fully self aware individual with a personality similar to the humanoid races and likely much easier to reason with.
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Ailsa
The Shire
Aug 22 2016, 10:43pm
Post #16 of 21
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About Powers of Magic and More Thoughts on Shelob
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Magic is shown to have some power over animals when Saruman sent the crebain to spy on the Fellowship - the crebain being crow like birds without higher intellectual capacity. He was also able to cause a snow storm to prevent the Fellowship from crossing Mount Caradhras. Magic had power over nature. What I believe is possible is that Sauron had magic capacity over animals like Saruman. (I grant that most of Sauron's energies and magic were probably used to control the Nazgul, wield his coalition army. keep his Orcs from killing each other, etc.)
Shelob might not have been a typical beast of the wild. She had a personal name - an unusual feature for a wild animal. When people are concerned about a dangerous animal in the wild, they tend to say, "That lion", " That bull elephant", "That shark", etc. Animals with personal names are domesticated ones, or one that is a "person" in some way. I think it is possible Shelob had some intellect and a personality. In the movie version of the giant spiders of Mirkwood, Bilbo finds them talking to each other - they were not very clever , but still... Shelob was bigger and stronger than they and may have been their mother. Even if you reject the movie version, I think the possibility exists that Shelob was more than just a dumb beast.
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CaptainObvious
Rivendell
Aug 24 2016, 5:29am
Post #17 of 21
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Although alluded to, I see no clear evidence of a Smaug-Sauron alliance.
I will offer two points of reason against such an alliance.
#1) Sauron has nothing to offer Smaug.
Smaug has everything he wants. He is his own master. He basically just wants to be left alone to sleep on his treasure hoard. Getting involved in world conquest is a dangerous proposition, even for a dragon.
#2) Sauron isn't powerful enough to command Smaug.
So, Smaug doesn't want to wake up and go to war. Sauron could just order him...not so fast! I would argue that Smaug is equal to or greater than Sauron in his current form.
Remember how Smaug regards the Ring? He knows Bilbo has it and doesn't even bother trying to take it. If he treats the One Ring with so little regard, how do you think he views Sauron?
Smaug claims "I am Death!" He views himself as an entity beyond equal, not as Sauron's minion.
Thoughts?
Simple. As Sauron became more powerful, in time he'd be able to bend even Smaug to his will. Everyone who ever fell victim to Smaug, was first corrupted by their own greed and lust for power. Smaug was far greedier and more powerful than most, so his fall to Sauron would have all served to be greater and more terrible than most, for Sauron would have used Smaug's own greed against him.
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CaptainObvious
Rivendell
Aug 24 2016, 5:50am
Post #18 of 21
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That should be "everyone who ever fell victim to SAURON" was first corrupted by their own greed and lust for power. Thus the seeds were already implanted in Smaug, by which Sauron could enslave him.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 24 2016, 7:04am
Post #19 of 21
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That should be "everyone who ever fell victim to SAURON" was first corrupted by their own greed and lust for power. Thus the seeds were already implanted in Smaug, by which Sauron could enslave him.
I don't think that's strictly true. The Elves of Eregion were tricked by the fair form of Annatar and were not necessarily seeking wealth or power. He did play upon their desire to expand their knowledge and abilities as crafters, so that plays into your statement a bit.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Aug 25 2016, 2:38am
Post #20 of 21
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There might be a slight differrence in that...
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The difference here might be "bent to his will". He never overmastered the elves of Eregion, he tricked them, and as soon as Celebrimbor got wise, the game was up. But the beings he actually controlled (Orcs and whatnot) were a different story. If he said jump, they had no choice but to say how high.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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moreorless
Gondor
Aug 26 2016, 2:00pm
Post #21 of 21
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Again though she isnt just an animal..
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Magic is shown to have some power over animals when Saruman sent the crebain to spy on the Fellowship - the crebain being crow like birds without higher intellectual capacity. He was also able to cause a snow storm to prevent the Fellowship from crossing Mount Caradhras. Magic had power over nature. What I believe is possible is that Sauron had magic capacity over animals like Saruman. (I grant that most of Sauron's energies and magic were probably used to control the Nazgul, wield his coalition army. keep his Orcs from killing each other, etc.)
Shelob might not have been a typical beast of the wild. She had a personal name - an unusual feature for a wild animal. When people are concerned about a dangerous animal in the wild, they tend to say, "That lion", " That bull elephant", "That shark", etc. Animals with personal names are domesticated ones, or one that is a "person" in some way. I think it is possible Shelob had some intellect and a personality. In the movie version of the giant spiders of Mirkwood, Bilbo finds them talking to each other - they were not very clever , but still... Shelob was bigger and stronger than they and may have been their mother. Even if you reject the movie version, I think the possibility exists that Shelob was more than just a dumb beast.
Shelob is certainly more than a larger spider, she's the daughter of Ungoliant or was some kind of primal spirit of darkness/hunger(maybe a Maia or even a Valar, maybe something else) which you could argue makes her a demi spirit(demigod not being very Tolkieneqsue).
She certainly has intelligence in the book and as you say the mirkwood spiders(could potentially be her offspring) have it in both book and film. Equally though she obviously doesn't have a "normal" personality though in the way Smaug does.
Smaug is undoubtedly the more powerful of the two of them but I think Shelob represents something older, more primal and actually less likely to bend to the will of any other force.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Aug 26 2016, 2:12pm)
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