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2 world views: Galadriel vs. Denethor
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squire
Half-elven


Jul 24 2016, 2:30pm

Post #26 of 40 (1668 views)
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"a slovenly and ill-disciplined people" - JRRT said in fun [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien never visited the U.S. We do find some comments about the country and the culture in his letters. These range from snide cracks about Americans' inability to take The Hobbit on its own terms to sour anger at copyright and 'cult' issues after LotR was published. In the 1940s he mostly reacted to the obvious material strength of the U.S.A. compared to all the other powers, especially Britain, and to the prospect of a postwar world completely dominated by American civilization and culture with all its commercial shallowness and fondness for modernist fads. I think it's important to remember that Tolkien loved to write, and to vent, and understood perfectly well that he was caricaturing himself as well as the U.S.

Here are two classic samples:

53 to C. Tolkien, 9 December 1943. I wonder (if we survive this war) if there will be any niche, even of sufferance, left for reactionary back numbers like me (and you). The bigger things get the smaller and duller or flatter the globe gets. It is getting to be all one blasted little provincial suburb. When they have introduced American sanitation, morale-pep, feminism, and mass production throughout the Near East, Middle East, Far East, U.S.S.R., the Pampas, el Gran Chaco, the Danubian Basin, Equatorial Africa, Hither Further and Inner Mumbo-land, Gondhwanaland, Lhasa, and the villages of darkest Berkshire, how happy we shall be. At any rate it ought to cut down travel. There will be nowhere to go. So people will (I opine) go all the faster. Col. Knox says 1/8 of the world's population speaks 'English', and that is the biggest language group. If true, damn shame – say I. May the curse of Babel strike all their tongues till they can only say 'baa baa'. It would mean much the same. I think I shall have to refuse to speak anything but Old Mercian.
But seriously: I do find this Americo-cosmopolitanism very terrifying. Qua mind and spirit, and neglecting the piddling fears of timid flesh which does not want to be shot or chopped by brutal and licentious soldiery (German or other), I am not really sure that its victory is going to be so much the better for the world as a whole and in the long run than the victory of ——.

58 To C. Tolkien, 3 April 1944. I found myself in a carriage occupied by an R.A.F. officer (this war's wings, who had been to South Africa though he looked a bit elderly), and a very nice young American Officer, New-Englander. I stood the hot-air they let off as long as I could; but when I heard the Yank burbling about 'Feudalism' and its results on English class-distinctions and social behaviour, I opened a broadside. The poor boob had not, of course, the very faintest notions about 'Feudalism', or history at all – being a chemical engineer. But you can't knock 'Feudalism' out of an American's head, any more than the 'Oxford Accent'. He was impressed I think when I said that an Englishman's relations with porters, butlers, and tradesmen had as much connexion with 'Feudalism' as skyscrapers had with Red Indian wigwams, or taking off one's hat to a lady has with the modern methods of collecting Income Tax; but I am certain he was not convinced. I did however get a dim notion into his head that the 'Oxford Accent' (by which he politely told me he meant mine) was not 'forced' and 'put on', but a natural one learned in the nursery – and was moreover not feudal or aristocratic but a very middle-class bourgeois invention. After I told him that his 'accent' sounded to me like English after being wiped over with a dirty sponge, and generally suggested (falsely) to an English observer that, together with American slouch, it indicated a slovenly and ill-disciplined people – well, we got quite friendly.


Finally, as already noted, it's certainly not true that 90% of Americans were farmers in the 1940s, although it was a much larger percentage than today. I don't know how the Armed Forces allocated the available manpower - a huge number of people were exempted from military service in order to keep the economy productive - but the 1940 census seems to show about 5 million actual farmers in a nation of 132 million people; that's roughly 4%.



squire online:
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Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 24 2016, 4:42pm

Post #27 of 40 (1657 views)
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It appears from your ‘Letters’ quotes that he was not particularly enamored with the U.S. [In reply to] Can't Post

"a slovenly and ill-disciplined people" Youch! Even in jest not particularly funny or true! Even in jest lies a modicum of true feelings.


In Reply To
Tolkien never visited the U.S. We do find some comments about the country and the culture in his letters. These range from snide cracks about Americans' inability to take The Hobbit on its own terms to sour anger at copyright and 'cult' issues after LotR was published.

Yet it seems from the end his Forward to LotR that he’s making a dedication to the U.S. (unless I’m misinterpreting “Across the Water” – don’t believe so.).


Quote
And if the many kind readers who have encouraged me with their letters will add to their courtesy by referring friends or enquirers to Ballantine Books, I shall be very grateful. To them, and to all who have been pleased by this book, especially those Across the Water for whom it is specially intended, I dedicate this edition.

'Still it might be well for all if all these strengths were joined, and the powers of each were used in league.'
-Glóin




EomundDaughter
Lorien

Jul 24 2016, 4:52pm

Post #28 of 40 (1652 views)
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Maybe it is best not to know too much about what he thought [In reply to] Can't Post

since I am American...lol....read that he stopped speaking to his friend CS Lewis when Lewis decided to marry a divorced American.....rather sad...


squire
Half-elven


Jul 24 2016, 4:59pm

Post #29 of 40 (1656 views)
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That reference is specific to the authorized paperback edition. [In reply to] Can't Post

He was quite bitter about the Ace editions for which he did not receive royalties. As his foreword to the Ballantine editions notes (which you cite) he was equally grateful when many of his U.S. fans began a boycott campaign on his behalf, to force Ace to acknowledge his authorial rights.

The Forewords to the hardback editions of LotR certainly don't single out his American readers, although in the now-obscure Foreword to the First Edition he does thank both English and American readers of The Hobbit for asking him to deliver a sequel. He even uses the same coy phrase "across the Water" to refer to America as he does in the Ballantine note a decade later!

Tolkien was a large-souled man. I don't think we need assume from his odd complaints here and there that he had any idea that Americans as a people were any worse or better than any other nation. That kind of stereotyping was not his style, as we readers know.



squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
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CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 24 2016, 10:19pm

Post #30 of 40 (1639 views)
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He seemed to have the strongest views on the French. [In reply to] Can't Post

As I recall from reading Carpenter's biography many years ago, Tolkien didn't hate France, but he had a poor opinion of it, and he went out of his way to avoid French food just on principle, as one of the few examples I can recall. I'd have to re-read what the reason was, but that's what stands out in memory. I don't remember him having such strong views on any other country, including the USA.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 25 2016, 12:09am

Post #31 of 40 (1639 views)
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Yes, of course the first Ballantine ed. is the singular edition he is referring to [In reply to] Can't Post

with this particular “Across the Water” dedication, though not given without monetary thought, and mention of “grave discourtesy” (inferring , no doubt, to the Ace Books pirates).

(I must say before continuing that I love Tolkien and I love his writings and his inspirational invention. He has made me laugh, weep, cheer, and wonder in amazement for more years than I care to recall. And I respect and admire the stoic British; but is this admiration reciprocal?)

The passages you quote from Letters bring this into question:


Quote
#53
When they have introduced American sanitation, morale-pep, feminism, and mass production throughout the Near East, Middle East, Far East, U.S.S.R., the Pampas, el Gran Chaco, the Danubian Basin, Equatorial Africa, Hither Further and Inner Mumbo-land, Gondhwanaland, Lhasa, and the villages of darkest Berkshire, how happy we shall be.

I do find this Americo-cosmopolitanism very terrifying.

#58
. . . but when I heard the Yank burbling about 'Feudalism' and its results on English class-distinctions and social behaviour, I opened a broadside. The poor boob had not, of course, the very faintest notions about 'Feudalism', or history at all – being a chemical engineer.

After I told him that his 'accent' sounded to me like English after being wiped over with a dirty sponge, and generally suggested (falsely) to an English observer that, together with American slouch, it indicated a slovenly and ill-disciplined people – well, we got quite friendly. [Yes, in this case it appears a bit of friendly face-to-face sarcasm. But as I said, in jest often lies a bit of truth.]

[And more]

#75
. . . I was able to console myself at The Gardeners’ Arms, not yet discovered by Stars or Stripes . . . [ref. American servicemen].

#76
Music will give place to jiving: which as far as I can make out means holding a ‘jam session’ round a piano (an instrument properly intended to produce the sounds devised by, say, Chopin) and hitting it so hard that it breaks.. This delicately cultured amusement is said to be a ‘fever’ in the U.S.A. O God! O Montreal! O Minnesota! O Michigan!

#328
The horrors of the American scene I will pass over, though they have given me great distress and labour. (They arise in an entirely different mental climate and soil, polluted and impoverished to a degree only paralleled by the lunatic destruction of the physical lands which Americans inhabit)….

(Emphasis always mine)


It appears (sadly) that Tolkien may have had a buried and undeserved disrespect for America – her ways and means.
Is there a "Thank you U.S.A.!" in any of his writings? (ref. WWII)

'Still it might be well for all if all these strengths were joined, and the powers of each were used in league.'
-Glóin




squire
Half-elven


Jul 25 2016, 12:35am

Post #32 of 40 (1642 views)
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Wow! [In reply to] Can't Post

You certainly found some good ones.

Without trying to deny that Tolkien obviously found many aspects of American culture distasteful, I will note that most Americans of the time (as in the episode of Tolkien's shallow chemist companion in the rail carriage) probably found the English snobbish, backwards, and hopelessly class-obsessed.

"A Special Relationship" has always been the propaganda term for US-UK interactions. But there are some amazing stories of the ways that the American and British general staffs did and did not get along during what was, in retrospect, one of the most successful and mutually beneficial alliances in history.

I remember my shock when young on reading a historical novel that presented the Japanese aristocracy's views on America during the Second World War years. To put it diplomatically, we Americans seemed no better than the barbarian hordes of the Dark Ages to the cultivated samurai and courtiers of old Japan. It opened my eyes to the perspective that, to many peoples of the old world, the U.S.A. is not really the exceptionally blessed gift to world civilization and peace that I had been raised to believe in without question. In fact I think our civilization has a lot to say for itself - but whether it's kindly Prof Tolkien or Pooh-bah, I now know that not everyone sees it my way!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jul 25 2016, 1:26am

Post #33 of 40 (1638 views)
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"Americo-cosmopolitanism" [In reply to] Can't Post

I returned recently from a trip with my 14-yr-old granddaughter to London, Salzburg, Vienna, and Prague. I'm sort of used to it, as I've traveled a good deal, but she was blown away by the American chains of all varieties: McDonalds, Starbucks, many clothing store chains, etc. wherever we went. And there is no culture anywhere, I think, that doesn't wear jeans nowadays.

On the other hand, I am always impressed by how pizza has overwhelmed fish and chips in England, and whatever local cuisine everywhere else, so give some credit to the Italians. Last night my husband and I ate pizza in a little restaurant that is the first US outpost of a pizza chain based in Tokyo. It was very good.

The whole world has grown smaller.








swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Jul 25 2016, 3:00pm

Post #34 of 40 (1612 views)
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and then... [In reply to] Can't Post

... there's the BBC on PBS...

saving us fro 3641723 channels of nothing on.

Why is the BBC still better than most American TV?

melting in Pennsylvania... watching Doc Martin and Masterpiece mysteries...

bigger on the inside...

Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...

Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...






noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 25 2016, 5:35pm

Post #35 of 40 (1607 views)
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To which apparently the American rejoinder was.... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I don't recall where I first heard this old saw by the clever Brits about the Yanks. All in good fun I'm sure:

"They're oversexed, overpaid, and over here."


According to my mother, the US wartime rejoiner to that was that the British were "undersexed, underpaid, and under Ike" (the American General "Ike" Eisenhower being CIC of the allied armies preparing for the invasion of France).

~~~~~~

volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers)
http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


EomundDaughter
Lorien

Jul 25 2016, 11:15pm

Post #36 of 40 (1593 views)
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Is BBC more sensitive to the publics ideas on programing? Dont know [In reply to] Can't Post

When watching a BBC show, I have started to expect good entertainment...esp a comedy....love "Detectorist".


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 26 2016, 12:11am

Post #37 of 40 (1590 views)
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LOL, Yeah I forgot that clever retort – but… [In reply to] Can't Post

Of more import who was Kilroy?
Or was there an original Kilroy who started this nonsense?

Aw, those Yanks – such humor… eh?
kilroy photo kilroy.jpg

'Still it might be well for all if all these strengths were joined, and the powers of each were used in league.'
-Glóin




Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 26 2016, 12:27am

Post #38 of 40 (1589 views)
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Those BBC shows ARE the best. [In reply to] Can't Post

We watch them on N-Flix. “Detectorists” an absolutely super series about absolutely nothing Crazy.

And “Doc Martin”, “Foyle’s War”, and “Broadchurch” are great. My wife and I look at each other when we come to the last episode - “What do we do NOW!” Wink

*search search* Sly

'Still it might be well for all if all these strengths were joined, and the powers of each were used in league.'
-Glóin




swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Jul 26 2016, 2:09pm

Post #39 of 40 (1566 views)
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I'm still trying to figure that one out! [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it some kind of cultural difference?

Is the Mother Country just more civilized?

Sly

It just seems like there's a lot of thoughtful, interesting stuff that hangs on character and story.

For someone across the "pond", it's like a mini vacation to a familiar yet different place.

Carry on and PBS and BBC.

bigger on the inside...

Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...

Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...






N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jul 29 2016, 11:39pm

Post #40 of 40 (1514 views)
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Circa 1920, he complained about the "unfortunate existence of America". [In reply to] Can't Post

The reason will be obvious to anyone who remembers what he later wrote about Hy Breasail in "On Fairy-stories".

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