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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Alfred Pennyworth

DainPig
Gondor


Jul 18 2016, 8:59pm

Post #1 of 15 (1985 views)
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Alfred Pennyworth Can't Post

Was Alfrid named after Bruce Wayne's butler? Alfrid, Alfred...

Both are assistants of powerful men.

"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."

dainpigblog.blogspot.com

historiasderafaelrodriguesdarocha.blogspot.com

(This post was edited by DainPig on Jul 18 2016, 8:59pm)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jul 18 2016, 9:33pm

Post #2 of 15 (1944 views)
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Never thought about it [In reply to] Can't Post

Your guess is as good as mine - maybe someone with a "Chronicles" book can answer?

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 18 2016, 10:06pm

Post #3 of 15 (1938 views)
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More likely because [In reply to] Can't Post

Alfrid (or Alfred) is an old, old Anglo-Saxon name. Since the Laketown design (and much of Tolkien) is very medieval in feel, it's not surprising that they went for a name that was popular in the Middle Ages when they needed to name an uncanonical character.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




DainPig
Gondor


Jul 18 2016, 10:14pm

Post #4 of 15 (1935 views)
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But remember [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ's Laketown isn't anglo-saxon, it is slavic. Right?

"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."

dainpigblog.blogspot.com

historiasderafaelrodriguesdarocha.blogspot.com


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 18 2016, 10:34pm

Post #5 of 15 (1925 views)
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Isn't it [In reply to] Can't Post

supposed to be (or have been) a great trading center with a certain amount of diversity shown among its citizenry?

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




DainPig
Gondor


Jul 18 2016, 10:46pm

Post #6 of 15 (1922 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

They say in the documentary the design of the town was inspired by the slavic culture. Esgaroth is racially diverse, but not culturally.

"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."

dainpigblog.blogspot.com

historiasderafaelrodriguesdarocha.blogspot.com


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 18 2016, 10:53pm

Post #7 of 15 (1913 views)
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No Relation [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm going to call the similarity of names a coincidence.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


DeadRabbits
Rohan


Jul 18 2016, 11:07pm

Post #8 of 15 (1909 views)
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Laketown was populated by Northmen... [In reply to] Can't Post

... akin to the Rohirrim, the Beornings and the Woodmen of Mirkwood, among others. The Rohirrim were modelled after the Anglo-saxons, whilst very little is known of the other Northmen cultures. That said, I guess it's pretty safe to assume the people of Laketown would have resembled some other Germanic culture, since they were closely related to the Rohirrim (the Middle-earth equivalent of the Anglo-saxons).

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


DainPig
Gondor


Jul 18 2016, 11:19pm

Post #9 of 15 (1905 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

we can't be sure

"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."

dainpigblog.blogspot.com

historiasderafaelrodriguesdarocha.blogspot.com


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 18 2016, 11:24pm

Post #10 of 15 (1907 views)
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I don't think [In reply to] Can't Post

you can take the "slavic culture" idea as the final word, when you're talking Middle-earth. Yes, they may have been inspired by elements of slavic culture in their designs, but I don't think the men of Laketown are therefore entirely Slavic, any more than I think the Elves are Samurai, despite the noticeable asian-style elements of their clothing and weaponry, or 20th century European, despite the admitted Art Deco influences in their architecture.

"Alfrid" probably pre-dates the "let's make Esgaroth Slavic" idea. I rather suspect that the character and name in the script came well before the other visual or cultural elements of the movie Laketown had been decided. For what it's worth, Bard is not a Slavic name either, it's derived from a Celtic root.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




ange1e4e5
Gondor

Jul 19 2016, 2:09am

Post #11 of 15 (1875 views)
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But Alfred Pennyworth isn't as odious as Alfrid. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I always follow my job through.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 19 2016, 11:21am

Post #12 of 15 (1821 views)
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Well, according to Wiki..... [In reply to] Can't Post

...which as we all know is a source upon which we can always rely (*cough*), Alfrid is the Nordic version of the name Alfred, used in Sweden, Norway, Finland etc... Which fits rather well with the Slavic nature of Laketown - no? But in any case, as others have pointed out, Laketown is a trading centre and so would attract a mixture of peoples.

If you like to think of it as a Batman reference that's fine, but if you're asking what we think I'd say no. That seems as remote to me as Alfred Lord Tennyson, Alfred Noyes, Alfred Nobel - and no, I don't think he was named after them either. I'd say they just needed a name for the Master's sidekick and picked Alfred, a name with a long history to it. Then they gave it the Nordic spelling to give an otherness to it.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


DeadRabbits
Rohan


Jul 19 2016, 12:59pm

Post #13 of 15 (1804 views)
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Alfred is the form most commonly used in Sweden at least... [In reply to] Can't Post

... and among Swedish-speaking Finns, I guess. 13 800 Swedish Men are currently named Alfred, whereas only 12 are named Alfrid. According to a Swedish genealogy forum, Alfrid was a female version of the male name Alf (which means Elf in Old Norse), but is no longer in use.

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 19 2016, 1:39pm

Post #14 of 15 (1796 views)
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Fair enough.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...as I said (or at least implied), Wiki's not the most reliable source!

I think they used that spelling to make the name seem less ordinary.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2016, 7:12pm

Post #15 of 15 (986 views)
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The name Alfred... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is not a typical name in most Slavic countries, but it does occur (usually Jews living among the Slavs) - however, I've only ever seen it spelled "Alfred". Sweden, Norway, and Finland aren't Slavic in the least bit though.

 
 

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