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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Any idea of the route Grishnakh and the Mordorian orcs used to cross the Anduin?

sevilodorf
Tol Eressea


Jul 17 2016, 5:45pm

Post #1 of 15 (1297 views)
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Any idea of the route Grishnakh and the Mordorian orcs used to cross the Anduin? Can't Post

Are they using boats? Are they crossing at the Undeeps?

And while Saruman can and does communicate through the palantir with Mordor has there also been an orc messenger service running across the Wold? Again how do they cross the River?

Saruman's little experimentation to create a new improved orc began when??? He is ensnared through the palantir in 3000 but has had agents in Bree and South Farthing since 2953? (half orcs/goblin men)

Was he breeding new/improved Uruk-hai earlier than 3000?

The Rohirrim could not possibly have been totally oblivious to the presence of Orcs in their country -- there have been raids of men and horses -- raids that some label tribute -- a bit of bad mouthing designed to cause disagreements and distance between possible allies -- but until Gandalf escapes Orthanc in September of 3018 the Rohirrim seem willing to pretend all is well... is Grima's influence/control that great?

Eomer hears reports and tracks orcs without "permission"? Theoden goes to battle the Isen Fords without real "permission"? Would they have done so before Gandalf's revelation of how Saruman treated him and what the wizard had hidden behind the walls of Orthanc?

I know that's a lot of questions and that many call for speculation beyond the actual word of the books. I've read a lot of that speculation ... some really well footnoted... but wanted to hear from the minds of the Reading Room.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 17 2016, 7:06pm

Post #2 of 15 (1266 views)
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Of Orcs and Men [In reply to] Can't Post

Mordor Orcs: My guess would be that they crossed the Anduin in boats and/or rafts.

Saruman probably used birds as messengers at least part of the time--particularly the Crebain.

Saruman's first agents and spies would have been Men, especially Dunlendings. Here is a timeline developed for The One Ring Roleplaying Game that touches upon your questions:


Quote
• Year 2953. Thengel crowned King of the Mark. Saruman becomes the sole Lord of Isengard. He mans the gates with guards and stops welcoming strangers. Works of fortification and renovation mainly concerning the ring-wall are commenced.
• Year 2960. A plan of extensive excavations under the inner courtyard starts. Saruman says he has found iron deposits under Orthanc.
• Year 2965. By this time the secret forges of Isengard are in full activity.
• Year 2980. Théoden succeeds Thengel as King of Rohan. Saruman sends gifts and spies to assess the weaknesses and strengths of the new Lord of the Mark.
• Year 2990. Saruman starts manipulating bands of great Uruks into harassing the Westemnet of Rohan. In the following decades he secretly employs and supports more and more Orcs.
• Years 2990-3000. The White Wizard first considers, then initiates experimenting, with the ‘special breeding’ of Orcs in the deepest pits under Isengard.
• Year 3000. Saruman dares to gaze upon Barad-dûr using the palantír of Orthanc. The Eye of Sauron traps him and holds him. The corruption of Isengard accelerates, Saruman starts planning the ruin of Rohan and sends more Orcs and labourers to Fangorn to cut trees and feed his furnaces.


I don't have many quibbles with this chronology, though I suspect that Saruman might have begun his breeding experiments earlier.

Orcs from the Misty Mountains would have plagued the Rohirrim even before the establishment of Rohan. Previously, though, they had probably been little more than a nuisance. But, yeah, Saruman's influence through Grima kept Théoden from taking the danger seriously. That is why Eomer had to go 'rogue' in defiance of his King.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


geordie
Tol Eressea

Jul 17 2016, 8:18pm

Post #3 of 15 (1259 views)
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Tolkien wrote to a 'scheme' [In reply to] Can't Post

while he wrote LotR; a series of notes intended to keep himself on track. Hammond & Scull had access to these notes whilst writing their book, 'The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion'.

H&S reproduce some of Tolkien's scheme regarding the movements of the three Orcish elements at this time. These elements are the orcs sent out by Saruman - (later reinforced with others from Isengard) , along with the Northerners from Moria; and Grishnakh's force - like Ugluk's initially a scouting party which reported back to their respective masters, and received reinforcements.

Tolkien said that Grishnakh crossed the River near the rapids on Jan. 26; he makes contact with Ugluk and sends word back to Mordor via the Nazgul near Sarn Gebir.

That's just one entry; there is more, but it would take some time to write it all out. I may say that this info. has been available since this book was published in 2005, though I'm afraid I've not seen much reference to this book in on-line fora, which I think is sad.
.


(This post was edited by geordie on Jul 17 2016, 8:24pm)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jul 17 2016, 10:40pm

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It was first referenced here even before its publication. [In reply to] Can't Post

In part because a number of forum participants heard Hammond and Scull speak at the Marquette conference in 2004. The first post-publication discussion of The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion on TORN was here in December 2005, and some notes from that thread were promptly noted by H&S (whom I see are monitoring the forum as I type right now) in their online corrigenda.

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Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
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(This post was edited by N.E. Brigand on Jul 17 2016, 10:40pm)


a.s.
Valinor


Jul 18 2016, 11:30am

Post #5 of 15 (1210 views)
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I quoted it just a couple days ago :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909644#909644

In fact, I quote it all the time. Since I bought it back when it was published, I keep it next to me now and read it along with LOTR. It's become an essential Companion.

In fact, it's instructive just to read it through once as a standalone volume. Instructive AND interesting in its own right.

a.s.

"an seileachan"


"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.



a.s.
Valinor


Jul 18 2016, 4:06pm

Post #6 of 15 (1192 views)
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I notice, though, I didn't cite a specific reference, did I? [In reply to] Can't Post

So one of the difficulties I experience with "typing" a post on my smartphone is literally typing on my smartphone. Smile

Next time I'll make the reference clearer.

a.s.

"an seileachan"


"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.



noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 18 2016, 9:23pm

Post #7 of 15 (1169 views)
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Venturing down to the bridges [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
"‘Is Saruman the master or the Great Eye?’ said the evil voice. ‘We should go back at once to Lugbúrz.’ ‘If we could cross the Great River, we might,’ said another voice. ‘But there are not enough of us to venture down to the bridges.’ ‘I came across,’ said the evil voice. ‘A winged Nazgúl awaits us northward on the east-bank.’"

Pippin. Overhears his Orc captors arguing about their route, in The Uruk-hai, Two Towers


If anything that makes it less clear. Where are "the Bridges" that a larger company of orcs might use? Is the presence of the Winged Nazgûl on the East Bank just news, or does it have anything to do with his Grishnákh crossed the river?

~~~~~~

volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers)
http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


sevilodorf
Tol Eressea


Jul 18 2016, 11:41pm

Post #8 of 15 (1154 views)
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bridges.... yes... where are they? [In reply to] Can't Post

Osgiliath is surely too far south for them to have gone....

The Old Forest Road which led from the High Pass into Mirkwood crossed the river at the Old Ford, to the south of Beorn's Halls. There used to be a bridge, this was fortified when Elendil crossed the river to go to war with Sauron, but it had been destroyed by the late Third Age. The only other bridge was in Osgiliath, but during the late Third Age, this was broken by forces of Mordor.


This is all I find online. Could they possibly be referring to a floating /pontoon bridge?

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)




sevilodorf
Tol Eressea


Jul 18 2016, 11:42pm

Post #9 of 15 (1152 views)
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Thanks for the responses. [In reply to] Can't Post

i appreciate all the time and effort you folk have gone to.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)




Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 18 2016, 11:44pm

Post #10 of 15 (1151 views)
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I figure somewheres north of the Argonath and south of the South Undeep. [In reply to] Can't Post

Which covers about 75 miles of river. Pick a spot…

And would put “the bridges” pretty much east of their position; but what does a dumb orc know of direction? Huh?

Quickie set-up and break-down devised by Sauron Master Builder, of course...

'Still it might be well for all if all these strengths were joined, and the powers of each were used in league.'
-Glóin




CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 19 2016, 12:28am

Post #11 of 15 (1148 views)
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I wonder if Bracegirdle is onto something [In reply to] Can't Post

because I also wonder how people got to Cair Andros. When Aragorn dismissed the fainthearted near the Morannon, he suggested they go liberate Cair Andros from Sauron's forces. Fine, but how were they going to do that from the Mordor side? It had been held until recently by Gondor, which makes me think there were no bridges to Mordor, or they would have destroyed them when a big assault came (as Gondor had done at Osgiliath), so how did they get across? Was that giant river suddenly fordable?

Or are there bridges that are never mentioned or put on maps because Tolkien didn't document everything? Maybe the orcs are referring to some minor bridge, or the remnants of one, that is close to Rohan. But I agree it's far from clear.


sevilodorf
Tol Eressea


Jul 19 2016, 1:41am

Post #12 of 15 (1145 views)
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From the timeline... orcs invaded Eastern Rohan on March 11 [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien Gateway says..... On 11 March eastern Rohan was invaded from the north, with the invaders crossing at the Undeeps. Their stay was short-lived; the Ents defeated them the next day

The bold seems to be speculation on the part of Tolkien Gateway though the Undeeps were used in previous battles.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)




enanito
Rohan

Jul 19 2016, 2:51am

Post #13 of 15 (1134 views)
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Are the bridges manned by "enemies" (i.e. forces of the West)? [In reply to] Can't Post

I find it interesting that a main reason they cannot venture to the bridges is that they lack enough forces to do so. This would imply that either the bridges lay through inhabited land they would have to fight their way through, or the bridges themselves were held (at least on the west side) by "enemies" (i.e. the good guys).

You'd have to think that any existing bridges over the Anduin would have to be of such extreme importance to everything going on in M.E., that somewhere mention would be made -- "Oh look Frodo, we're floating under a bridge on our way down the Great River" -- "Don't worry Frodo, you can cross the River on your way to Mordor further down at the bridges -- etc

So I kind of think they were referring to some kind of temporary crossing. Maybe. Or not. Cause I'm not sure why they'd need more forces than what they've got, since they've killed "the great warrior", still haven't encountered Eomer, and are quite close to the river when they have that conversation.

Round and round I go...


InTheChair
Rohan

Jul 20 2016, 9:11am

Post #14 of 15 (1102 views)
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Cair Andros seems the probable reference and would also explain the plural bridges [In reply to] Can't Post

Grishnakh might have crossed near the rapids by beeing carried across by one of the Nazgul, but how did they get his whole troop across? That must have required the aid of boats or rafts. Unless the Nazgul were running shuttle traffick.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 20 2016, 9:45am

Post #15 of 15 (1099 views)
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As yet another option: how swimmable do we think the Anduin might be for an elite force? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a thought - if Grishnakh and his 'boys' are Sauron's equivalent to an elite military unit, might they simply be able to swim across?

The reason this might not be raised as an option could be that Ugluk of course wants to go West, and the Moria orcs presumably want to go home. And the Moria boys are in it only for the duty of revenge, so maybe they aren't professional scouts/rangers, and can't swim!

~~~~~~

volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers)
http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm

 
 

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