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Radagast vs the Nine

emre43
Rohan

Jul 16 2016, 9:39am

Post #1 of 13 (1240 views)
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Radagast vs the Nine Can't Post

Purely for speculation and discussion, Gandalf was able to hold off the nine at Weathertop. My question is - as a Maiar, would Radagast have been strong enough to have done the same?

I guess my question is, how does strength in a Maiar vary? Saruman, was evidently strongest as head of the order, until replaced by Gandalf the White. But what was it that made Saruman the strongest? Why is Radagast considered lesser than either Saruman or Gandalf?

I never killed a man who didn't need killing
- Clay Allison


squire
Half-elven


Jul 16 2016, 1:42pm

Post #2 of 13 (1208 views)
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There are no rules regarding what the beings classed as 'Maiar' can or cannot do [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien invented the term when rewriting the Silmarillion, after he had finished writing The Lord of the Rings. Maiar is a term of convenience, capturing the heavenly nature of a large group of characters he found he'd invented in the course of composition, who were immortal, originally from outside the world, and yet not the Valar.

So 'how strong was Radagast compared to Gandalf" may be a natural question if one thinks of LotR in terms of other authors' more game-like fantasy constructs, in which this being can conquer that being. But I suggest it's not as interesting a question with Tolkien, because he didn't think that way. Still, although I believe it's part of the point of the book that a question like this is not at all answerable, I don't want to suppress the fun of "speculation and discussion"! So:

The best I can offer is Gandalf's statement in the book (II.2) about Radagast being "of course, a worthy Wizard", which seems defensively complimentary; and Saruman's jibe about "Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool!". And yet, as we know, the entire thrust of LotR is that the seemingly powerless, if honest and true, have in some senses more real strength than the mighty who have lost their moral compass. Tolkien, to me, seems to be reserving judgment on Radagast, painting him as one of less wizardly power than either Gandalf or Saruman, yet leaving Radagast quite a lot of room for development. I think we see that development, redirected, in the subsequent appearance of the "Simple, Foolish" Ents who prove to be Saruman's nemeses.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if, had he felt the need, Tolkien had shown us that yes indeed, the Brown Wizard could "hold off" the Nine - but not by using "light and flame" as Gandalf did.



squire online:
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Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 16 2016, 2:20pm

Post #3 of 13 (1203 views)
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Master of Shapes and Hues [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that Radagast, described as a master of shapes and hues, might not be able to stand against the full might of the Nine; however, he might be able to confound them and slip away unseen. The problem with that idea is that the Nazgűl do not rely much on their sight but on smell and preternatural senses that the Brown Wizard might not easily fool.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


emre43
Rohan

Jul 16 2016, 2:41pm

Post #4 of 13 (1198 views)
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I completely agree with you [In reply to] Can't Post

about other fantasy's authors use of 'muscle' to compare characters. However, I don't think that's where I'm coming from.

I'm not trying to compare power in terms of 'who would win?'. My question is more philosophical than that hopefully. I'm trying to discuss and understand the Istari more broadly - who they are, what they are, why they are...

Why is Saruman white? Why is Gandalf Grey? Why did Yavanna 'beg' Curumo to take Radagast with him? If Radagast was simply a 'master of shapes and hues' it feel unjust to me that he should fail in his task and be disallowed entry back to Valinor. To me, I get the impression that Radagast is a simple soul, who would much rather live in the woods and care for the beasts and the birds, than embark on a campaign to destroy a dark lord.

Yavanna's reasoning behind sending Radagast, I assume, was to have an emissary that would ensure the protection of her creations. Why, then, did he fail? It just seems unjust to me. Although I may be biased in saying so, he is my favourite character...Smile

I never killed a man who didn't need killing
- Clay Allison

(This post was edited by emre43 on Jul 16 2016, 2:42pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 16 2016, 10:11pm

Post #5 of 13 (1178 views)
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Head, heart, and a mixture [In reply to] Can't Post

One way of looking at the three wizards, I think, is to see:
Saruman as too skewed towards cold intellect
Radagast as too skewed towards feeling

Maybe Gandalf is more able to stick to the mission because he's a mixture?

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Meneldor
Valinor


Jul 17 2016, 12:52am

Post #6 of 13 (1166 views)
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So what you're saying is... [In reply to] Can't Post

Saruman is Spock, Radagast is McCoy, and Gandalf is Kirk? I'll buy that.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


squire
Half-elven


Jul 17 2016, 1:33am

Post #7 of 13 (1167 views)
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Another reason the Blue Wizards are just so much B.S. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, Tolkien just had to add the phrase "rods of the five Wizards" to Saruman's hysterical rant. But really, what you say makes so much sense. There were three wizards, with only the "middle" one proving to have the right stuff in the "just right" amount, a la Goldilocks and a million other rules of the happy middle.

The other two, so-called Blue Wizards, are in the end just a rhetorical accident. Just what I've always suspected.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 17 2016, 3:07am

Post #8 of 13 (1154 views)
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The Blues Brothers . . . well friends [In reply to] Can't Post

Were also mentioned (no, referred(?) to) in ‘Tale of Years’ intro. to the Third Age. Well . . . making the total five anyway.


Quote
The two highest of this order (of whom it is said there were five) were called . . .



In Reply To
Yes, Tolkien just had to add the phrase "rods of the five Wizards" to Saruman's hysterical rant.
. . .
The other two, so-called Blue Wizards, are in the end just a rhetorical accident. Just what I've always suspected.


Or were you just giving a singular instance of the use of “five Wizards”? Blush

'Still it might be well for all if all these strengths were joined, and the powers of each were used in league.'
-Glóin




noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 17 2016, 7:34am

Post #9 of 13 (1140 views)
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Just so. Or... [In reply to] Can't Post

Potter the Grey, Weasley the Brown and Granger the White.
Or, I believe they correspond to different parts of the Freudian mind: Radagast the Id, Saruman the Superego, and Gandalf as Ego, with a balance of those forces (though not terribly egotistical in the general Englis sense of the word). Possibly it's these contrasts that make such a trio an interesting team, whether they are able to overcome their differences and realise they're complementary (Kirk et al.; or Potter & pals )or whether they've become dysfunctional as a team (the Wizards)

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jul 17 2016, 7:34am)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 17 2016, 12:31pm

Post #10 of 13 (1133 views)
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Or another contrast, if you like looking for these patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

Radagast is too delighted by how things are to change what needs changing.
Saruman becomes too obsessed with directing change to take delight in what is.
Gandalf is Mummy Bear again - just right. But it sets him the difficult problem of what is supposed to be changed by human intervention, and what is going OK already.

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 19 2016, 12:43am

Post #11 of 13 (1084 views)
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You're really on a roll with the comparisons. Keep going! [In reply to] Can't Post

It did occur to me that, if Saruman had remained good and trustworthy, and Gandalf had confided the matter of the One Ring being in the Shire to him, he would have NEVER waited as long as Gandalf did to do something about it. Either a much younger Bilbo or Frodo would have been sent off to Mordor a long time ago, and no waiting around for Sauron to catch up.

Radagast, by contrast, would have waited far too long.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 20 2016, 9:32pm

Post #12 of 13 (1065 views)
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All right then: ents and entwives [In reply to] Can't Post

The ents "gave their love to things they met in the world"; whereas the entwives "desired order, and plenty, and peace" (both quotes from TT/ Treebeard).

Same contrast: being (perhaps) too content with anything and everything vs being (perhaps) too ready to make real or imagined improvements.

And all the while, I'm aware here that I'm ignoring the OP's original question. But that's because I agree with squire: I don't think we can figure out the outcome of Rgadagast versus The Nine by the textual analysis we do here. It's probably best explored through fan fiction.

~~~~~~

volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers)
http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Jul 25 2016, 3:23pm

Post #13 of 13 (940 views)
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fascinating... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree this isn't a D&D game though...

Tolkien leaves more to our imagiation, more quaestions unanswered...

best explored through fanfic indeed!

still enamored of the bunny sled...

bigger on the inside...

Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sűl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...

Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...





 
 

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