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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 12 2016, 12:56pm
Post #1 of 6
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An Attempt to Date the Battle of Moria
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Readers of J.R.R. Tolkien know that he ascribed specific years and sometimes precise dates to certain events. Thus, we know that in his legendarium:
- Smaug attacked and occupied the Lonely Mountain in the year 2770 of the Third Age.
- Thrór, grandfather of Thorin Oakenshield, was slain and beheaded by the Orc Azog at Moria in 2790.
- The murder of Thrór set off the War of the Dwarves and Orcs from 2793 to 2799.
- The war ended in 2799 with the Battle of Azanulbizar with Azog slain by Thorin's cousin Dáin Ironfoot. Among the dead on the side of the Dwarves was Thorin's brother Frerin. It was during this battle that Thorin earned the nickname of 'Oakenshield'. In Peter Jackson's Hobbit trilogy this battle is known as the Battle of Moria.
- in 2802 Thráin II, father of Thorin, established a new home for Durin's Folk in the Blue Mountains.
- Thráin sets out with several companions on April 21, 2841 to revisit Erebor.
- in 2945 Thráin is lost at the eaves of Mirkwood. Unknown to his companions, the Dwarf-lord was captured by Orcs and taken to Dol Guldur.
Peter Jackson streamlined and simplified this series of events, seeming making Thorin younger at the time of his Quest of Erebor and moving Smaug's occupation of the Mountain to as late as the year 2820, perhaps a bit earlier. I started looking through the references to the Battle of Moria in the films to see if I could date it. Unfortunately, all we can discern for certain is that Balin still saw Thorin at that time as a young Dwarf-prince and that it was after the battle that Thorin (instead of Thráin, who now goes missing during the battle) led his folk to the Blue Mountains.
Barring any better information, I am going to borrow from Tolkien, where Gandalf reminds Thorin during the Unexpected Party that he had last seen his father "on the twenty-first of April, a hundred years ago last Thursday" (I know that according to Shire Reckoning that April 21 should fall on a Friday, but maybe this was according to the Dwarves' calendar). I am going to guess that the Battle of Moria in Peter Jackson's Middle-earth occurred on April 21, 2840 (Third Age), about twenty years after Smaug invaded Erebor.
Thoughts? Comments?
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 12 2016, 1:00pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 12 2016, 2:15pm
Post #2 of 6
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Looking back at my most recent attempt to construct a timeline for Jackson's film-continuity, I came up with a somewhat different answer for the year of the Battle of Moria:
2820 - The coming of Smaug to Erebor.
2829 - Battle of Moria. Thrór and Frerin are slain. Thráin II is lost.
2832 - Thorin leads his people to the Blue Mountains. Sometime between 2840 and 2858 Dís weds.
Either scheme could work. My new one just means that Thorin led his followers to the Blue Mountains a bit later (about TA 2943) and his sister Dís probably married sometime soon after that (still before 2859 when Tolkien records that Fili was born).
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 12 2016, 2:16pm)
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DainPig
Gondor
Jul 13 2016, 12:23am
Post #3 of 6
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that Smaug has not been seen for 60 years. That's a big difference.
Good point: there are many dwarves in the company at the age of Thorin or even older who are not seen in AUJ's prologue. See DOS, the scene where the dwarves enter the mountain for the first time. Only Thorin and Balin (the ones we see in AUJ's prologue) get emotional.
"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 13 2016, 1:49am
Post #4 of 6
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Smaug has not been seen for 60 years. That's a big difference.
Thorin says that Smaug hasn't been seen in 60 years. That just means that that was the last time that the dragon was seen outside of the Mountain. The Dwarves had to have been driven away long before that. Fili and Kili (and Ori?) were born in the Blue Mountains and they are more than 60 years old. Heck, Gimli is more than 60 years old at the time of the Quest of Erebor.
Good point: there are many dwarves in the company at the age of Thorin or even older who are not seen in AUJ's prologue. See DOS, the scene where the dwarves enter the mountain for the first time. Only Thorin and Balin (the ones we see in AUJ's prologue) get emotional.
Okay, but I don't know where you are going with this. Thorin, Balin, Dwalin, Oin, Gloin, and probably Dori are all around the same age and were probably all born in Erebor.
Given the backgrounds developed for Dori, Nori and Ori for the films, I'm going to guess that Dori's father died when Smaug attacked the Lonely Mountain; his mother remarried in Dunland, Nori was born and his father died in the Battle of Moria; and their mother married again and gave birth to Ori in the Blue Mountains.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 13 2016, 2:01am)
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Jul 13 2016, 2:44am
Post #5 of 6
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Their film ages aren't very clear
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Thorin, Balin, Dwalin, Oin, Gloin, and probably Dori are all around the same age and were probably all born in Erebor.
Even though the tapestry in DOS gives Thorin's correct year of birth, he seems to be significantly younger than 195 in the movie. Given that alteration and PJ's other timeline changes, I'm not sure if any of the Dwarves' book ages are film-canon. Dwalin, for instance, looks more than 9 years younger than Balin.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 13 2016, 2:52am
Post #6 of 6
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Even though the tapestry in DOS gives Thorin's correct year of birth, he seems to be significantly younger than 195 in the movie. Given that alteration and PJ's other timeline changes, I'm not sure if any of the Dwarves' book ages are film-canon. Dwalin, for instance, looks more than 9 years younger than Balin.
I am cheating a bit by using most of the book-ages for the Dwarves--Thorin and his siblings being the main exceptions. However, I'm okay with that. It is suggested in materials related to the films that Thorin is just a few years younger than Dwalin (instead of being older than Balin). And we do see Dwalin (with a Mohawk) at the Battle of Moria.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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