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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Re Fili/Kili at Ravenhill, we probably know already, but those script changes!...

Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 8 2016, 7:25pm

Post #1 of 24 (1938 views)
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Re Fili/Kili at Ravenhill, we probably know already, but those script changes!... Can't Post


Quote
At Dean’s vip panel I asked two questions, I was very lucky. When I stood up I said “It’s so nice to see you again so soon”. Dean said my name immediately “Lea!” This is a blast for me!
My first question was: Graham said they are like high-school kids when they are together and they even have a Yearbook. The title of Fili is Best Dancer. Would you mind to show us some dance moves here? Dean was laughing" HAHAHA, NO!“ I insisted "Come on please I’ve seen you dance before. It was awesome”. Dean asked curiously" where did you see me dancing?“ I said it was at Hobbitcon. Dean said "Oh Germany! That’s because so much beer!”
And my second question was: if there is a second chance would Fili still choose to fight Azog alone to protect Kili at Ravenhill? Dean said it was not like in the movie at the beginning. The script was like the audition that the brothers fight together then Kili die first and Fili would hold him and cried and scream to Azog then go to fight him. As we know they changed it finally. He was a little disappointed. Dean said he prefers the original one. Fili shouldn’t be left alone.



http://hanarowlrowl.tumblr.com/...-two-questions-i-was


Well, we probably already knew something like that from watching the Appendices. Would Thorin have already fallen in the original script? I think not, or maybe he got wounded and went after Azog after his nephews fell... Does it even matter, w. the movies completed?

Well, yeah, it DOESCool IMO, if only for the *delicious* possibility of unseen bits and pieces of footage sitting on a drive someplace gathering DUST MOTES. Or not, since original script doesn't mean actually filmed.Frown
But IMO *grousing* Dean is absolutely correct, he shouldn't have been left aloneFrown. I suppose he wasn't, ultimately. *Gosh darn* that IMO over-tight BOFA editing - e.g, IMO someone/dwarves should have come for Fili...Unimpressed! *Sigh*.


Meanwhile, there's something not right about this picture. The cosplayers are very coolHeart, OB looks handsome - I dunno...


The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies' world premiere at the Empire Leicester Square cinema - Arrivals Featuring: Orlando Bloom Where: London, United Kingdom When: 01 Dec 2014 Credit: Euan Cherry/WENN.com


Elves just get everywhere I guess....Evil


But Fili DID get an epic magazine cover....Heart



Just when you have moved on, grateful for the incredible ride, thinking what a *miracle* these films areHeart, how if the power holds re storms you are DEFINITELY hunkering down for some Hobbit-watchingTongue - something you trip over online comes alongMad, like a pin you accidently jab under a fingernail....still...HeartHeartHeart


http://rachellefryatt.deviantart.com/...r-of-Durin-347753518
I'm gonna thoroughly enjoy re-watching Thorin and his HeirHeart. And one day I hope to meet Dean and add to the *hoard* of comments re wanting to have had more of his Fili. (Kudos to these actors too for the courtesy and patience they must have to have at these cons)



HeartHeartHeart It was a happy accident, but IMO they look RELATED. And GLORIOUS side by side.Cool


Thrain II
Lorien


Jul 9 2016, 10:30am

Post #2 of 24 (1827 views)
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Ah yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

another example where it was originally meant to be like in the book, but changed at the later stage. It is too late to be angry about it anymore. Unsure

Well we all know how much PJ likes elves, so that picture from the premiere doesn't surprise me one bit.

As for the Empire magazine, I have that one, great memories...


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jul 9 2016, 2:07pm

Post #3 of 24 (1802 views)
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Me, too! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
another example where it was originally meant to be like in the book, but changed at the later stage. It is too late to be angry about it anymore. Unsure

Well we all know how much PJ likes elves, so that picture from the premiere doesn't surprise me one bit.

As for the Empire magazine, I have that one, great memories...


What the heck was Arwen's picture doing up there??? I STILL think it's such an injustice that Liv got top billing over Viggo in LoTRMad

Totally HeartHeartHeart that Empire magazine!

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jul 9 2016, 2:14pm

Post #4 of 24 (1806 views)
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Fili holding Kili [In reply to] Can't Post

OMG, I don't think I could have handled thatUnsurePirate I'm pretty sure that they'd originally planned for both brothers to be laying next to each other, and Bilbo grieving, saying something like "Oh, this is too much" (totally agree, what was Tolkien THINKING killing off both of them???Mad) - but then they opted for that "quiet scene" with Bilbo & Gandalf sitting next to each other. That scene is so powerful, I don't think I'd trade it for anything (except an alternate ending where one or all of them surviveWink). At least Fili got a proper funeral scene - I suppose we should all be grateful....



Yeah, they DID do a great job making them look related! Dean was a GREAT casting choice - if there's one thing PJ ca do, it's cast a movie!

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


LSF
Gondor

Jul 9 2016, 5:16pm

Post #5 of 24 (1783 views)
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wouldn't change it back [In reply to] Can't Post

Fili's death is perfect for me- sudden, brutal, heartbreaking...

What I would add, since they did want to do something with Dwalin after he helps Bilbo (and Dwalin going for Thorin/Azog does not work), is have Dwalin finding Fili's body and protecting it and fighting off orcs around it.


Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 9 2016, 7:56pm

Post #6 of 24 (1764 views)
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Some nice replies - thank you (: [In reply to] Can't Post


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It is too late to be angry about it anymore. Unsure


True. And I really wasn't trying to stir the pot upShocked over stuff that has been discussed a lotCrazyCrazyCrazy - just every now and again I get a *twinge*Unimpressed and also when I find an actor commenting specifically - well, it's just fun for to think about what MIGHT be hidden in the vaults that MIGHT see the light, one dayTongue. Maybe.Unsure

(Just because something was filmed doesn't mean it was goodShocked - maybe an actor is having an off day or things just aren't working or a shot is too cluttered or the light is bad...)

IMO the Empire covers were epic except the "collector" edition w. the eagles???, Thorin looking to me like an invading HunLaugh, and some IMO other issues.

Also w. SDCC coming up, I was happily tormenting myself about the ONE SDCC I would have liked to have been at - 2012; tho 2011 sounds like fun as well, thanks to the One Ring...
http://www.movies.com/...on-hobbit-panel/3692

Honorary memory lane SDCC pics - on the other hand, after getting into the Hobbit rather late - I was able to plunge into it all pretty unspoiled - not sure I would want to give up that experience - yes, no - I don't knowCrazy! But I wish I could have seen WETA's Hobbit displaysFrown. I'd probably never have left the boothCool.







LOL MF and Sir Ian!!!Cool RA really needs to stop being so ridiculously handsome....Laugh



Love SmaugHeart. They should put this up in the NZ airport...






Azog and Thorin - truly *precious* at this point being sold out and allShocked; except via E-bay and other sellers $$$
I would have had to bring a wagon to carry all the WETA *swag* and gone home brokeCool!













Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 9 2016, 8:55pm

Post #7 of 24 (1749 views)
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True [In reply to] Can't Post


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OMG, I don't think I could have handled thatUnsurePirate I'm pretty sure that they'd originally planned for both brothers to be laying next to each other, and Bilbo grieving, saying something like "Oh, this is too much" (totally agree, what was Tolkien THINKING killing off both of them???Mad) - but then they opted for that "quiet scene" with Bilbo & Gandalf sitting next to each other. That scene is so powerful, I don't think I'd trade it for anything (except an alternate ending where one or all of them surviveWink). At least Fili got a proper funeral scene - I suppose we should all be grateful.... Yeah, they DID do a great job making them look related! Dean was a GREAT casting choice - if there's one thing PJ ca do, it's cast a movie!


Well, thanks to TORn and TORn members and even learning that when Tolkien picks up and finishes the Hobbit there's a decidedly darker turn - as a "children's tale" I suppose being read, read aloud - w. the dwarves not being heavily detailed and the battle sort of being breezed through - re Fili and Kili in the book, it's not the same impact IMO.

Nor was this film populated with sort of uber-gritty, grim dwarves who don't say much and are pretty much hairy squares - something like 300 - Rise of an Empire where there's just blood and stuff everywhere.

Anyway, I'd agree that Bilbo/Thorin was exquisitely handled along with Bilbo/GandalfHeart. And Dean was such great casting choiceHeart - ended up being a great spokesperson too on the AppendicesHeart - he makes me smile. Terrific personalityHeart.

I hope I'm not ungratefulCool! - I'm sure I'm notCool, in that these films might not have ever existed and w. WETA's sense of aesthetic and PJ's eye for framing a shot and his casting instincts. I just get *twinges* now and again - frustration!Crazy

And yeah, I'll be *flamed* by many, I'm sureEvil, but I'm always gonna believe that BOFA would have made more money if PJ had tweaked the ending and the Durins had livedEvil.

And PJ had filmed 2 endings. Because, IMO, while I had never thought about is before, really, there's a sort of end-of-days film, for example, where IMO there's no payoff, really, w. the main character's innocent suffering - I was pretty irate about that oneMad (don't want to name the film because it'd spoil it). Also, by staying with canon more or less (no doubt to the relief of manyLaugh) it probably shut the door on the *dreaded fan-fiction non-Tolkien sequel* (I don't care, tho. I would have loved a sequel that had more of Thorin & co. fighting in the North as LOTR went on...could have had Thranduil and so on. Gotta love fan-fiction...Cool)

E.g., IMO, from what I noticed in theaters, I suspect with a happier ending there would have been more repeat viewersUnsure. It's tough going for repeat views with that sort of ending - I know I didn't see BOFA in theater as much as DOS (tho that was partly re the pacing and shortness of the film, too. Couldn't wait to get the disks, tho.)

Also, IMO, with THIS Thorin, and THESE brothers, other than Bilbo and the dwarves being devastated (and some in the audience feeling bad - or at least it was completely quiet every time I watched in theater) I still don't see the payoffUnimpressed. Well, except for Thorin being extraordinary as a character until his last breath. And Fili truly being the Heir of Durin. And Bilbo's and Thorin's amazing relationship depicted by amazing actorsHeart.

Although this has been discussed on TORn as well.

That's an interesting pondering, though, for me - if it ever came up in those discussion forums that seeing the brothers fall together, more or less, was debated as being too traumatic re audiences having children? Just too much of an overload? Aside from Kili and Tauriel taking on Bolg, eventually.

Hopefully one day more details will come out - tho I would rather have more footageTongue.



OT but I have been staring at this poster for years, so I need to BUY it. Some beautiful art came out of the Hobbit films.Heart






lionoferebor
Rohan


Jul 9 2016, 11:25pm

Post #8 of 24 (1739 views)
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Agree [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Fili's death is perfect for me- sudden, brutal, heartbreaking...

What I would add, since they did want to do something with Dwalin after he helps Bilbo (and Dwalin going for Thorin/Azog does not work), is have Dwalin finding Fili's body and protecting it and fighting off orcs around it.


...though had PJ gone with what was originally planned, as Dean described, I would have been pleased with that too...because, IMO, Fili -heartbroken over his brother's death - taking on Azog would been just as moving, but in a different way.


lionoferebor
Rohan


Jul 9 2016, 11:58pm

Post #9 of 24 (1728 views)
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The *twinge* [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote

Quote
It is too late to be angry about it anymore. Unsure



In Reply To
True. And I really wasn't trying to stir the pot upShocked over stuff that has been discussed a lotCrazyCrazyCrazy - just every now and again I get a *twinge*Unimpressed and also when I find an actor commenting specifically - well, it's just fun for to think about what MIGHT be hidden in the vaults that MIGHT see the light, one dayTongue. Maybe.Unsure


I too have experienced the *twinge*. The nagging feeling of not only what could have been, but having the knowledge it's out there. (Sometimes ignorance is bliss).


lionoferebor
Rohan


Jul 10 2016, 1:55am

Post #10 of 24 (1723 views)
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Drew Barrymore [In reply to] Can't Post


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I STILL think it's such an injustice that Liv got top billing over Viggo in LoTRMad


In the 1996 film Scream, Drew Barrymore - who only appears in the prolgue - was given top billing over Neve Campbell, the lead role. It's all about contracts and marketing. Studios promote to the general public. "Big" names sell films (among other things) and the general public is more familiar with Liv and Drew vs. Viggo and Neve. Not saying I agree with it, but it's the way it is.


Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 10 2016, 6:39pm

Post #11 of 24 (1658 views)
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*Smiles* - well, I hope... [In reply to] Can't Post

Re the *twinge* - I don't think it's a fool's hope - that one day there will be some sort of huge, re-cut extended edition of the Hobbit films. Because of the technology advances, I don't think actual problems w. the film itself - I mean the physical media the frames are on - is a problem w. the Hobbit films.

PJ & co. seem to be laying low re these films (burn-out?) - but IMO it would make sense for WB to release a special edition, one day. Tongue


LSF
Gondor

Jul 10 2016, 7:30pm

Post #12 of 24 (1648 views)
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I consider... [In reply to] Can't Post

I consider the extended editions as the "director re-cut." If those are the versions PJ wanted to make, then I don't want him to do another re-cut with more or alternate scenes. Would I like to see whatever was filmed that got deleted? Yes., but not put back in the movie if he doesn't want them in.

As for the special edition thing, Michael Pellerin, the guy in charge of the Appendices for both LOTR and Hobbit, did say such a thing was in the plan, like how they did the Harry Potter Ultimate Editions. Though it did not sound like they were to add in deleted scenes into the movies, but to have a deleted scenes section and have more Appendices material. He said, in regards to Appendices material, that they purposely chose what to put out on the EE blurays, and what to save for the Ultimate Edition.


lionoferebor
Rohan


Jul 10 2016, 7:34pm

Post #13 of 24 (1649 views)
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Quiet [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
PJ & co. seem to be laying low re these films (burn-out?)...


I'm sure at this time in the game, PJ & co. have moved on. Still, looking back to the days leading up to BOFA - and more so the days leading up to the EE - PJ and co. - IMO - started to become rather quiet well before the ride was over.


TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan


Jul 10 2016, 9:08pm

Post #14 of 24 (1632 views)
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I have no idea the actual reasons and have no evidence to back this up [In reply to] Can't Post

But my heart tells me it was because of the critical reception of the first two films (in comparison to the critical adoration lathered upon LotR - rightfully so - and the bizarre near-universal critical acclaim for King Kong, which is still a good 100 - 110 minute action/adventure movie trapped inside of a needlessly bursting at the seams with fluff three hours-plus movie).

"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War


Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 10 2016, 9:16pm

Post #15 of 24 (1626 views)
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Very true [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I'm sure at this time in the game, PJ & co. have moved on. Still, looking back to the days leading up to BOFA - and more so the days leading up to the EE - PJ and co. - IMO - started to become rather quiet well before the ride was over.


One thing that sticks in my head is Martin Freeman talking about the pickups, how "there was no messing" around and there were other cast comments about the very long days.

And, as you say, there was a lot of silence - well, where, all things considered, I thought there wouldn't be. But I can completely understand PJ becoming - with his work ethic and drive - utterly, completely exhaustedFrown and wanting some distance from ME, at least for a time.




Kim
Valinor


Jul 10 2016, 9:40pm

Post #16 of 24 (1617 views)
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Smaug [In reply to] Can't Post


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Love Smaug Heart. They should put this up in the NZ airport...


They did Smile He's in the Wellington airport, along with Gandalf on the Eagles, and Gollum fishing. All are very cool. Cool

"All we have to decide is what to do in the time that is given us."


Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 10 2016, 9:44pm

Post #17 of 24 (1619 views)
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But [In reply to] Can't Post


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But my heart tells me it was because of the critical reception of the first two films (in comparison to the critical adoration lathered upon LotR - rightfully so - and the bizarre near-universal critical acclaim for King Kong, which is still a good 100 - 110 minute action/adventure movie trapped inside of a needlessly bursting at the seams with fluff three hours-plus movie).

Surely PJ & co. have been in the business long enough to know that "critics" - as a whole - seem to have kind of a baffling herd mentalityCrazy - or so it seems to me. Especially these days when some blogger can have some association with a web site and all of sudden they are considered "press" and "a critic".

Plus, PJ has apparently run the gamut of negative reactions before. Finally, as PJ openly stated, he "was going to make the kind of movie he wanted to make". IMO any intelligent adult who takes on a well-known work and pretty much does what he did with LOTR - make some significant changes - must know they may be in for it, both from the press, and fans. Might work out, might notUnsure; and even if you slavishly adhere to canon as much as possible, a whole raft of things can not work as well as you hope.

There's no way to even know if LOTR were released today it would get the same reception it apparently did, assuming the stuff that looks more dated was up-to-date appearing. For all we know it would be dismissed as "ponderous", "grim", "bloated"...But IMO any director and those in this business must have to develop thick skins - PJ seemed to know that when he said something to the effect of "you make something, and put it out, and hope that people like it..."

Besides, all three Hobbit films were blockbusters, all three top sellers. *Shrug* I really don't think these films were made with the idea of little gold statues in mind. Not that they didn't deserve plenty, IMO.


Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 10 2016, 9:48pm

Post #18 of 24 (1616 views)
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Salt... [In reply to] Can't Post


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They did Smile He's in the Wellington airport, along with Gandalf on the Eagles, and Gollum fishing. All are very cool. Cool

Because some folksCool wisely made sure they got to NZ to SEE this....TongueTongueTongue

Good to know that thoSmile. I wish WETA would put up all their 'con displays as permanent statues.TongueTongueTongue


Kim
Valinor


Jul 10 2016, 9:50pm

Post #19 of 24 (1614 views)
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Sorry! [In reply to] Can't Post

Just trying to help with the facts. I purposefully didn't post a pic with me standing in front of him. Wink

"All we have to decide is what to do in the time that is given us."


Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 10 2016, 10:01pm

Post #20 of 24 (1610 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

*AWKWARD!!!*


Quote
I consider the extended editions as the "director re-cut." If those are the versions PJ wanted to make, then I don't want him to do another re-cut with more or alternate scenes. Would I like to see whatever was filmed that got deleted? Yes., but not put back in the movie if he doesn't want them in.



For myself - so uncomfortableBlush! thinking of telling a noted director how to do his business. But. Yes, I would tell Sir Jackson to at least put the dwarf/Thranduil scene back in, and any possible rumored footage of the dwarves re BOFA, and add more Beorn - stuff that's been talked about before, I know...

But would I tell PJ that? Sure. Not that he asked meCool. And with reverence and respect and many bows. Because even the greatest of us may see things one way, but maybe things would be really great another way, even if the person making something isn't enthused and is more enthused about something else.

And I think BOFA's often rapid-fire pace was a mistake, even if I understand the logic.

It's lovely to hearSmile that there seems to be? an actual long term plan - eventually - for an "ultimate edition/collection".
That would really be something to look forward to, and I shamelessly hope for gorgeous packaging, too. It's IMO appropriate for these filmsHeart.


LSF
Gondor

Jul 10 2016, 10:28pm

Post #21 of 24 (1603 views)
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PJ has a huge advantage over our opinions... [In reply to] Can't Post

...on what he left out. He has seen the scenes and ideas in question. He also had other people helping him make these decisions. At best, we have seen snippets (except for the acorn in Dale scene and Dwalin running to save Thorin from Azog). We don't have the advantage to accurately judge if those scenes would work or not. Maybe they were good ideas, but something about the filming of it didn't work, or when put in it messes up pacing or intended emotion or something. The idea of Dwalin trying to save Thorin from Azog sounds good on paper, but when they showed it in the Appendices, I'm glad it got cut because it does mess up the entire point and emotion of Thorin's self-sacrifice.

And if we do get to see the deleted scenes in the ultimate edition, and can judge, I wouldn't tell him to put the ones I think work back in. I could wish that they had been, but they aren't, so I accept it. I'm not saying he's above suggestions from fans, but I think there's a difference between suggesting/asking why this scene was deleted, and telling him that it would make the movie better (subjectively) for me and he should do it.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jul 11 2016, 2:51pm

Post #22 of 24 (1540 views)
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Yeah, I know, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

""Big" names sell films (among other things) and the general public is more familiar with Liv and Drew vs. Viggo and Neve. Not saying I agree with it, but it's the way it is."
The "general public" may have been more familiar with Liv BEFORE FoTR came out, but AFTER that??? I seem to remember Viggo being at the top of a lot of ladies' lists (along with Orlando, but that's another subject). And she was in TTT for less than 5 minutes - oh, I don't think I'm ever gonna get over that!

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 11 2016, 9:02pm

Post #23 of 24 (1498 views)
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Too true [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
...on what he left out. He has seen the scenes and ideas in question. He also had other people helping him make these decisions. At best, we have seen snippets (except for the acorn in Dale scene and Dwalin running to save Thorin from Azog). We don't have the advantage to accurately judge if those scenes would work or not.


And too, I seem to vaguely remember PJ either saying outright you make mistakes and/or the changes you might make in hindsight...something like that. Always love that PJ is so HUMAN about his approach - e.g., not arrogant while definitely being the boss.

Hmm, well, I think the dwarf/Thranduil sceneHeart WOULD make the films betterEvil, tho I suppose that is subjective. On the other hand, IMO, there's quite a good flow anyway re those scenes. And I think removing the Dwalin scene was the right thing to do, now matter how good the scene was. One of my BOFA frustrations is always going to be that IMO useless blip of Legolas hollering for TaurielMad, which to me breaks the flow of Thorin/Azog, IMO there didn't need to be ANOTHER scene break for another character.

Anyway, nice response!Smile


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Aug 6 2016, 2:56pm

Post #24 of 24 (1032 views)
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Interesting to know about Fili/Kili [In reply to] Can't Post

Annoying that it didn't come out that way finally, but still interesting. Unsure With a little distance, I can say this: I figure my imagination handled this perfectly competently before the movies, and is quite capable of replacing what I don't like in the movies Evil, so I'm okay with all this now. Not really happy about those certain bits, but okay. The parts I did like were so wonderful that I can't complain (though I still might, now and again Angelic). I mean, I NEVER would have given book!Thorin the time of day, and movie!Thorin has been SO MUCH FUN! HeartCoolSmile


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”


 
 

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