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"Very bright" swords

noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 3 2016, 9:24am

Post #1 of 9 (1476 views)
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"Very bright" swords Can't Post


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"Very bright was that sword when it was made whole again; the light of the sun shone redly in it, and the light of the moon shone cold, and its edge was hard and keen. And Aragorn gave it a new name and called it Andúril, Flame of the West."

The Ring Goes South, FOTR


That passage has always seemed to me to feel appropriate, even though I don't understand the significance. Recently though I read:


Quote
"Narsil is a name composed of 2 basic stems without variation or adjuncts: NAR ‘fire’, & THIL ‘white light’. It thus symbolised the chief heavenly lights, as enemies of darkness, Sun (Anar) and Moon (in Q) Isil . Andúril means Flame of the West (as a region) not of the Sunset."

Tolkien Letters #347


So it seems that Tolkien knew why a red gleam in the sun and a cold (white) gleam in the moon would be appropriate.

Is this a detail that it would at all have been possible to work out, if Tolkien's letters had not been published?

If so, do you prefer Tolkien having left it unexplained, or would you have liked an explanation to have been worked into the text (e.g. Bilbo: "Really Frodo I would have thought you would have known enough Elvish to manage NAR ‘fire’, & THIL ‘white light...")

Having found this out , I'm of course thinking about its significance. It makes a link between Elendil and his sword and Aragorn and his reforged version. Maybe the idea is that some essential essence of the original sword has survived the re-forging, just as (perhaps) some original essence of the virtues of Numenor have survived and come together again in the person of Aragorn?

Finally, given this is a fantasy work, it seems readable in either a factual direction or a magical one. The factual idea is that Narsil reflects light in these ways, perhaps as a property of the kind of metal from which it is made, or of the craft by which it was forged (any metalworkers in the Room who might like to comment?) Such properties might seem very appropriate for the sword of a man who was one of Sauron's mortal enemies. Contrariwise, the sword might mystically or magically contain something of the sun and the moon, making it the appropriate and special weapon of Sauron's chief mortal enemy.

Other magical swords exist of course - the hobbits' barrow-blades are effective (especially against the Witch King) because of magic as well as metallurgy. Sting, Glamdring and Orcrist glow when orcs are about, Turin and his sword Gurthang have some lines of dialogue. So I wonder what you think - does Narsil/Anduril fit into this group of magical swords, is it 'just' a very superior piece of craftsmanship, or are those possibilities utterly blurred into each other?

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 3 2016, 1:50pm

Post #2 of 9 (1433 views)
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Magical weapons [In reply to] Can't Post


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does Narsil/Anduril fit into this group of magical swords, is it 'just' a very superior piece of craftsmanship, or are those possibilities utterly blurred into each other?



Quote
[Elrond] ’…for the Spear of Gilgalad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. ‘

-The Council of Elrond, FOTR

[Also]

Against Aeglos the spear of Gil-galad none could stand; and the sword of Elendil filled Orcs and Men with fear, for it shone with the light of the sun and of the moon, and it was named Narsil.

-Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Does this seem to indicate that these weapons may have given their wielders a power beyond their own individual prowess?

The Barrow-blades all had some ‘magical’ properties; why not Narsil/Anduril? Although the Barrow-blades were made by Elves, and Narsil by Telchar the Dwarf. And Aiglos?

'Still it might be well for all if all these strengths were joined, and the powers of each were used in league.'
-Glóin




Meneldor
Valinor


Jul 3 2016, 4:34pm

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Can't post pics right now... [In reply to] Can't Post

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3777/9395040228_9a4b95c519.jpg

but if you check that, you can find me in the middle holding a sword that seems to be ablaze with sunlight. It's just a normal sword blade, about an inch wide, kept clean and polished but not even close to a mirror finish. The camera happened to catch just the right angle to make it dazzle.

So, yes, it is possible for a mundane sword to seem very very bright if it catches the ambient light. But I suspect there was more going on with Narsil-Anduril than that. Was it magic? I think I'll go with Galadriel's answer to that question.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 3 2016, 6:23pm

Post #4 of 9 (1416 views)
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Who wants an old sword, anyway? [In reply to] Can't Post

Seemingly everyone in every myth and legend. Old stuff is way better than new. I've been trying to think of modern real-world parallels, but mostly new stuff is as good as, or is different to the old. A violinist might prefer a Stadavarius to the best modern violin, but I can't think of many things like that.

Maybe that reflects practical reality - in the pre industrial world, lots of factors from poor control over raw materials and processes to the difficulties in scaling up production could have meant that really well-made things were rare. Maybe too, lack of much QA meant that a lot of goods failed because of un-noticed flaws. Perhaps a sword that had survived a few battles was likely to survive a few more, whereas you never knew whether your new sword was over-tempered and going to break at a critical moment?

Or maybe it is part of a conservative (small c) outlook in fantasy fiction - worlds in decline, the past was generally better?

Or maybe it is a natural outcome of cultures very interested in lineage and stability. Having a famous sword might be nearly as good as having a famous ancestor (the two things are, of course, intertwined in Aragorn's case). Having ancient goods might also mean you came from an ancient (and therefore respected) lineage?

Of course, it the ancestors are yours using their stuff is an act of inter-generational intimacy. I use my Grandad's penknife sometimes, for reasons that are not totally about functionality. If my Grandad was a famous penknife-user, then using it would also be a form of display - a public mark of our connection

And again, I think northern dark-age cultures were built around rewarding the best warriors with the best goods - so having a nice sword or rings or a torc would be impressive, a bit like a piece of wearable c.v. (that is, resume).

Or maybe ...well, what does everyone else think?

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 6 2016, 3:24am

Post #5 of 9 (1348 views)
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Middle-earth antiques for sale? [In reply to] Can't Post

Speaking of valuing what is old in the modern day, people still love antiques. So that would be mainly furniture and house decorations, works of art, old books, and other stuff I can't think of right now. But an "old" smartphone is old if it's aged 3-5 years, and it's an object of contempt. The rules for what makes something old & classy or old & worthless are rather arbitrary. I'm not sure why my grandmother's mirror and table that I inherited are cool antiques, but they're cool to me, and I would never sell them. That's for sentimental reasons that they remind me of her, but someone who never knew her would probably pay decent money for them.

So Narsil is an old sword, and not only that, it contains the light of the sun and the moon. (That is a great detail to point out, BTW. I didn't know that, and I never took that line in The Silmarillion that Bracegirdle quoted as a literal line about the light from the celestial bodies, but apparently it was meant to be.) But I think you're more on target with the thought that what is old is respectable and venerable, as in coming from an old family. It carries more weight to say socially, "My family has lived in this city for six generations" than to say, "My family moved every generation." Putting down roots, building up history in one locale: that's how you become a respectable family like the Baggins. (Money helps too.) Having a traceable timeline gives you more perceived heft.

Aragorn has that wonderful lineage that can be traced all the way back the First Age. He's seen throughout LOTR as a diamond in the rough because of his great bloodline. Sure, his family fell on hard times and lost their throne, their money, and everything else, but they're still in The Registry of Royal Blood. It gets circular, doesn't it? You ask: why is being old respectable? I answer: because being old is respectable, and being respectable means you have a long past. I guess society decided it is, so it is.

I would also say that all the the oft-repeated feeling of oldness in LOTR gives it a sense of authenticity for readers. Science fiction, by contrast, struggles to impress us with what is new and dazzling, but I'm not sure any futuristic world has ever seemed as real as Middle-earth does (and I'm a big sci-fi fan). Talking trees (Tolkien) vs light sabers (Star Wars): both are fanciful, but Middle-earth seems more like a place I could visit, even if the trees do talk and walk and that's really a silly idea.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jul 10 2016, 1:13am

Post #6 of 9 (1262 views)
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Interesting topic [In reply to] Can't Post

Replying here to both of your posts. The second one first:

In Skyrim many ancient swords (or weapons) are worthless compared to newly made weapons, enchanted or otherwise. This may have something to do with durability, relative bluntness, characteristics which may have improved with the development of smithing technique such as balance, heft, shape, hardness, and so on... In the mid 2000's game Runescape there was a rusty blade item that was utterly worthless.

In Tolkien, a blade's (known) history seems to have as much of an effect as any enchantment purported to be upon it.

Your lead post:

Regarding the technical bit, I think a reforged blade is essentially a new blade yet should be similar in character to the original, assuming little to no new material was forged into it.

As for the Moon and Sun, thanks for the quotes. 'Flame of the West' referring not to 'sunset' (but something like the Sun surely) and Narsil to the Sun and the Moon together -- though more so to the Moon it appears -- may be describing the twilight and rebirth of the line of kings: the Moon decline, the Sun ascension. Yes, I like that, thank you for the thoughts.



(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jul 10 2016, 1:28am)


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Jul 11 2016, 7:57pm

Post #7 of 9 (1207 views)
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Or maybe it is part of a conservative (small c) outlook in fantasy fiction - worlds in decline, the past was generally better?


One of the major themes in Tolkien's works is that of loss and decline (which is intimately connected with the theme of death, which Tolkien described as the most important theme in The Lord of the Rings). It's kind of a conservative outlook but I think that's a little simplistic. It's not so much saying that the past was great and we should try to get back to it, but rather that history is a progression of loss and decline, and anything else is but a temporary reprieve. This is related to Tolkien's religious views and shows up early on in the heavily mythological portions of The Silmarillion. Arda Unmarred becomes Arda Marred very early on, and even Valinor (which is the closest thing to Paradise any of the characters in Tolkien's works know about) is a second-best thing, established by the Valar after their original dwelling was destroyed. The existence of Valinor speaks not only of Melkor's attacks on Arda, but it's defensive posture (in the far west, behind a wall of towering mountains) speaks to the Valar's abdication of responsibility over large parts of the Earth. Even the sun itself is a lesser like, and in some conceptions (notably in Myths Transformed) it is a corrupted and sullied one after Morgoth attacks Arien.

Verlyn Flieger has written at length about the symbolic status of light in Tolkien's mythology and how the history of Arda can be symbolized by the refraction and dissipation of light (this is a hideously compressed summary on my part). You can see this symbolism in action with the White Tree(s): Telperion in Valinor -> Galathilion in Tirion (made in the image of Telperion) -> Celeborn on Eressëa (a fruit of Galathilion) -> Nimloth in Númenor -> the tree Isildur saved and brought to Middle-earth -> the successive trees in Minas Anor/Tirith. Or how Gondolin, an inconceivably ancient symbol of a lost civilization to most characters in LOTR, was itself merely made in memory of Tirion upon Túna. Not only does carrying an old sword represent a connection with this past, but the smiths of the First Age had knowledge and techniques that were lost in later Ages, to the point where they seemed like magic to people (like the Hobbits) who didn't know better. Galadriel kind of pre-empts Arthur C. Clarke when describing the Mirror to Sam, who had been asking about elf-magic. To her it isn't magic, but to the Hobbits who have no idea how it works, it effectively is.



There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...



noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 13 2016, 4:37pm

Post #8 of 9 (1166 views)
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Indeed - trying to get back to the past is what you're clearly NOT supposed to do! [In reply to] Can't Post

Those are very good points - thanks!

Certainly I don't think that Tolkien's characters are shown in a good light when they try to cling to, or return to the past - think of Denethor killing himself in part because of his anger that he cannot have things as they were in the days of his forefathers. Or the elves getting into that Rings of Power venture so that they could set up pockets of a more ideal world such as Lorien. It seems to me that it is not a good thing, in the Tolkien universe, not to live in the present, and deal with the joys and challenges of the present.

Admirable characters are more likely to be interested in the old and traditional as a source of interest and wisdom. So we have Bilbo and Frodo and Sam as contrasts to the largely parochial and isolationist hobbits of the Shire, who mostly view foreigners with a wholly misplaced sense of amused superiority. There are several examples of denigrated old wisdom turning out to be useful (e.g Ioreth's 'old wives tales' about the healing king, versus her more scholarly superior).

The past might also, of course, actively come to the rescue of the present: the elves contributing to Sauron's downfall as pretty much a parting gesture to Middle-earth, or the ents emerging from being a matter of legend to being a potent military force. Or the Dead and their recruitment to Aragorn's cause. Or, of course Aragorn himself - a modern man but representing the past and a continuation of the past.

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Jul 25 2016, 3:07pm

Post #9 of 9 (1037 views)
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not so long ago... [In reply to] Can't Post

people saved, recycled, kept things, passed them down and on and on until they fell apart... oh, but you'd also repair stuff...

so old was good

now, in our "just friggin make another one" throwaway culture, obsessed with the Latest Greatest Shiniest thing, we only seem to value the LGST...

I personally hate this idea. I refuse to upgrade to windows whateverthelatestbrainfartis. I refuse to get a phone that does more than text and make phone calls. I refuse to do cable 923412384 channels of nothing on). I don't need a car that goes "chirpchirp", I need one that gets me there.

Old and tried is good.

Some things never wear out.

You just have to know their quality, and their history.

I diverged slightly there from the original intent of this thread...

Swords channeling light seems to be part of many mythic tales. Many of them seem to glow with the light of the sun... or in the case of one wielded by Irish legend Fergus Mach Roich, the light of rainbows...

bigger on the inside...

Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...

Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...






(This post was edited by swordwhale on Jul 25 2016, 3:17pm)

 
 

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