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LittleHobbit
Lorien
Jul 1 2016, 3:13am
Post #26 of 71
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Today's audience cant' handle a SINGLE 'innuendo' joke and some violence in a story that warrants some (such as the story that is told in the book). A children's book from the 1930's does not warrant innuendo. And today's audience seems to be quite capable of handling that kind of joke. What they apparently can't handle is a movie that doesn't employ some level of dirty joke or unnecessary violence. If you remember his channel name, I wouldn't mind checking out that YT "apologist" 
My 'warrant' comment was referring to the violence, not the 'innuendo' joke. I don't think it was warranted, but I don't have a problem with it, and it definitely didn't ruin the ENTIRE movie for me (like it does for some folks here, apparently).
And by the way, I raise another question: could a ''children's book from the 1930's'' be a commercially successful blockbuster? Perhaps could be a discussion for a new topic.
As for the Youtube apologist, I am pretty sure this is his channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC80XWjZbaTSLRqi54yb0plA.
(This post was edited by LittleHobbit on Jul 1 2016, 3:21am)
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TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan
Jul 1 2016, 9:41am
Post #28 of 71
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The only way to properly solve this litty bitty dilemma
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Would be to seek out proof of whether or not J.R.R. Tolkien ever giggled at a sexually suggestive joke during his entire lifetime and then also be able to ask him: "You don't write about it much and it makes sense why, but... these M-e beings are having sex to procreate, right?"
Such proof is undoubtedly a lost cause.
(But my money is on he did laugh at such things when such things tickled him as being humorous - who among what group of people on earth has not at least once? - and that these cultures did indeed procreate, with respect to differences unique to each race, by having sexual intercourse that... at some point in time... I'm sure someone... well, someone would probably have just... talked about it.)
Maybe even made an inopportune joke about it?
In all seriousness, the line is not a great line, but it does (oddly) lead into a great and beautiful dialogue between the two characters later (more genuinely surprising and moving because of the fact their back-and-forth began so awkwardly and superficial) and is hardly worthy of the utter disdain it's been met with by some. Come on now. There are real problems afoot here - like beard lengths! Now that there has got some substance brewing in it! A big ole steaming, runny bowl of thick and hairy - but not nearly thick and hairy enough - substance. Nummy num num nums.
"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War
(This post was edited by TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense on Jul 1 2016, 9:45am)
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Gianna
Rohan
Jul 1 2016, 1:40pm
Post #29 of 71
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Sorry! I don't mind the violence so much, I just think it should have been toned down considering the number of children who were sure to be watching the film.
You should start that topic! I have opinions on that as well
Thanks for the link 
~There's some good left in this world. And it's worth fighting for.~
------
My website...
...my fantasy novel Seascape...
...and my fantasy novel Starscape.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 1 2016, 4:38pm
Post #30 of 71
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In all her 600 or so years as a Mirkwood guard, Tauriel's probably heard and told far raunchier jokes. Kili's comment may well have been the lamest thing she ever heard, judging by her reaction. 
Especially re being around guards - who are parked around the woods guarding - hours on end, in humid dank Mirkwood, not much to look at except some spores drifting around or maybe Bard on occasion, there'd be a frenzy of getting some spiders from time to time, then more hours of watching water drip off the leaves...zzzzzzzzzz. Just because the guards are elves doesn't mean they wouldn't joke around or tell stories or try to kill some time IMO when you are stuck up in some damp tree for hours and hours.
I imagine, relatively speaking, that by that time not many denizens of Middle Earth had a lot of interest in the forest - maybe men came to the forest edges to gather some wood, if that. So being a Mirkwood guard was probably often really dull. Maybe the guards told jokes along w. counting mushrooms and sharpening weapons to pass the time.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 1 2016, 4:43pm
Post #31 of 71
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(But my money is on he did laugh at such things when such things tickled him as being humorous - who among what group of people on earth has not at least once? - and that these cultures did indeed procreate, with respect to differences unique to each race, by having sexual intercourse that... at some point in time... I'm sure someone... well, someone would probably have just... talked about it.)
Nice post IMO.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 1 2016, 4:44pm
Post #32 of 71
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I can't really think of a book from the 1930's, but one of MY favorite childhood books, "The Witch of Blackbird Pond," was written in the late 1950's. I insisted my daughters read it, but by then Harry Potter had come out and they told me my book was boring! Still, I'd like to see an adaptation, though like so many on this board I wouldn't want TOO many changes made. Anyway, I'll keep an eye open if you start that topic, sounds like fun!
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 1 2016, 4:46pm
Post #33 of 71
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and they occasionally get drunk, too! Who knows what goes on when THAT happens!
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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wizzardly
Rohan
Jul 1 2016, 11:20pm
Post #35 of 71
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"Based Upon" really seems inaccurate to me
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It really should say something like, "Loosely inspired by The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien". But honestly, seeing the good professor's name attached to this festering pile of poo makes me queasy.
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TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan
Jul 1 2016, 11:45pm
Post #36 of 71
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Was not God.
I won't divulge further into anything, but I just wanted to throw that out there.
"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Jul 2 2016, 4:43am
Post #37 of 71
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and what he actually wrote is infinitely better than the poo Kukla, Fran, and Olly generated in this case. The Hoibbit was by no means as bad as the Star Wars prequels but at least the prequels couldn't be accused of being out of the spirit of the original material.
Dwarves are earthy. Kili as portrayed in this movie was singularly undwarven with the exception of the moment he told Thorin off over the prospect of staying behind the gates of Erebor while Dain's men were being destroyed.
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TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan
Jul 2 2016, 2:39pm
Post #38 of 71
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I can definitely accuse the prequels
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Of being out of sync with the spirit of the original trilogy. From the first five minutes of the first movie to the close of the last one, the essence of "Star Wars" was nowhere to be found.
"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War
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wizzardly
Rohan
Jul 2 2016, 4:14pm
Post #39 of 71
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Tolkien is God of Middle-earth
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Without Tolkien, there would be no Middle-earth.
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wizzardly
Rohan
Jul 2 2016, 4:22pm
Post #40 of 71
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George Lucas is God of the Star Wars Universe. And he himself created the prequels. Tolkien had absolutely no input into the creation of the PJ movies. So if any of the movies were lacking the "essence" of the original creator, it is most certainly not Star Wars.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 2 2016, 4:39pm
Post #41 of 71
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but a story where the rights were sold...
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and what he actually wrote is infinitely better than the poo Kukla, Fran, and Olly generated in this case. The Hoibbit was by no means as bad as the Star Wars prequels but at least the prequels couldn't be accused of being out of the spirit of the original material.
Dwarves are earthy. Kili as portrayed in this movie was singularly undwarven with the exception of the moment he told Thorin off over the prospect of staying behind the gates of Erebor while Dain's men were being destroyed.
For some folks it might "be better". Depends. Who decides what's "dwarvish?" Who decides "the spirit of the original material?" I mean, I could, in theory, condemn the portrayal of elves by Tolkien - and later in the films - as a wistful, overly-idealized, rather sentimental portrayal that's perilously close to angels on earth, rather than the evil creatures EVERYONE knows elves are....
Also, I can't make a chair, sell it, and then tell the buyer "Hey! You can't refinish that chair! That's not the design I had in mind when I made it!" Never mind Tolkien evidently continued to edit and change things, or planned to.
And if by "earthy" you mean something akin to Gimli's portrayal in LOTR - well, for myself, I didn't see Gimli in a lot of ways as he was portrayed; and kudos to the Hobbit dwarves IMO for "reframing" - for me - the portrayal of dwarves as more than comic relief, including Kili.
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Morthoron
Gondor
Jul 2 2016, 5:47pm
Post #42 of 71
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But I would suggest that if Jackson left the embarrassing dialogue out, you would not have missed it, wouldn't have mourned its loss, and we would not be having this discussion.
For some folks it might "be better". Depends. Who decides what's "dwarvish?" Who decides "the spirit of the original material?" I mean, I could, in theory, condemn the portrayal of elves by Tolkien - and later in the films - as a wistful, overly-idealized, rather sentimental portrayal that's perilously close to angels on earth, rather than the evil creatures EVERYONE knows elves are....
The Elves you refer to are adaptations of the 19th century, borrowed in part from Elizabethan miniaturization of fairies, a diminution caused in large part by the Catholic Church and the reduction and elimination of Pagan mythos and the demonization of earlier nature spirits. Tolkien's Elves are derived from the earlier Norse Alfar, that approximated man-sized spirits and were a group of beings with supernatural powers and beauty, ambivalent towards everyday people and capable of either helping or hindering them (Freyr of the Vanir is often considered by scholars as Alfar). The folklore motif of fey or capricious nature of Elves and their ability to be either evil or good depending on the circumstance is certainly shown in the haughty nature of the Noldorin Elves of the Silmarillion, and in the kidnapping and forced marriage/rape of Aredhel by Eol.
Also, I can't make a chair, sell it, and then tell the buyer "Hey! You can't refinish that chair! That's not the design I had in mind when I made it!" Never mind Tolkien evidently continued to edit and change things, or planned to.
But chair designs have been trademarked (the Eames chair, for instance), thus they are legally exclusive and cannot be remade without specific rights to the trademark holder. But your comparison of a chair to a work of art/literature is off the mark. Picasso and Rembrandt made many variations of their previous work; however, they remain the works of Picasso and Rembrandt. Although Tolkien edited and altered certain of his work, the fundamental characterizations didn't change. He didn't suddenly decide to become vulgar and add fart, belch, snot and crotch jokes. That's all Jacksonian juvenility.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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Beorn's Bees
Lorien
Jul 2 2016, 6:03pm
Post #43 of 71
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Of being out of sync with the spirit of the original trilogy. From the first five minutes of the first movie to the close of the last one, the essence of "Star Wars" was nowhere to be found.
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Jul 2 2016, 6:22pm
Post #44 of 71
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The rights being sold means he has a right to make the movie as he wants
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So if you buy the rights, you can make the movie as you like. Hollywood has destroyed many a story with their "alternative" interpretations ... and fans of the original are still free to criticize the adaptation for its deviances. Sometimes the adaptations are beautiful as in "Hook". Sometimes they're not. I don't say and have never said that PJ wasn't entitled to make the changes he did but I feel as free to criticize his rendition of "The Hobbit" as I do Will Smith's "The Wild Wild West" or Verhoeven's "Starship Troopers".
If PJ had wanted to make the Elves Christmasy like Jingle and Jangle
or even ugly like in the Japanese art for the Rankin-Bass production:
he certainly could have but it wouldn't make them Tolkien Elves.
Similarly, this beardless wonder:
is no more a Tolkien dwarf than these guys:
but beyond looks (because the complaint here is really about the script), the script just wasn't Tolkienesque. Kili's banter grated like extracting the lines from "West Side Story" and inserting them into a play laying itself out as "Romeo and Juliet" with costuming and sets to match. Essentially the same story ... but not. In fact, the more I think about it, the more PJ's rendition reminds me of "The Magnificent Seven" as compared to "Seven Samurai" except that "The Magnificent Seven" didn't even try to set itself in medieval Japan.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 3 2016, 12:54am
Post #45 of 71
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Re:
Tolkien's Elves are derived from the earlier Norse Alfar, that approximated man-sized spirits and were a group of beings with supernatural powers and beauty, ambivalent towards everyday people and capable of either helping or hindering them (Freyr of the Vanir is often considered by scholars as Alfar). The folklore motif of fey or capricious nature of Elves and their ability to be either evil or good depending on the circumstance is certainly shown in the haughty nature of the Noldorin Elves of the Silmarillion, and in the kidnapping and forced marriage/rape of Aredhel by Eol.
Thank you. Fascinating. I always thought Tolkien had the Tuatha Dé Danann in mind re the elves - because that - at the moment - is what I am familiar with. Put a quote at the bottom - not arguing or challenging what you posted as I literally don't know - yet. So many books, so little time...
I was being admittedly a bit cheeky, so in all seriousness think most folks on this board have seen the Appendices and know those very nice sections on the "history" of elves as depicted by PJ - both the historically cute creatures depicted (especially at the holidays) - and the images in the public consciousness now, both in literature and in films.
But I would suggest that if Jackson left the embarrassing dialogue out, you would not have missed it, wouldn't have mourned its loss, and we would not be having this discussion...Although Tolkien edited and altered certain of his work, the fundamental characterizations didn't change. He didn't suddenly decide to become vulgar and add fart, belch, snot and crotch jokes. That's all Jacksonian juvenility.
For me - personally, in thinking about it - what I might miss is a very muddled area when bringing these books to films. Re the books, I can laugh at some rather pointed comments I have read about Tolkien's writing style ("the LOTR quest is like a travel brochure of Middle Earth, and even when Gandalf has just apparently died there's time to do some sight-seeing..."), and shrug and sink right back into reading, because reading Tolkien is like a dream and like music - and thanks to TORn member Ilmatar's posts on the Kalevala that seems more right than ever, that it should be this way.
Similarly re the films - re the more "earthy" PJ additions - that's difficult NOW, because I loved the films, re the troll snot thought that was a fresh amusing approach - considering the fastidious Bilbo and the IMO wonderful characterization of the trolls . I laugh at Kili. Nothing like that ever bothered me as much as making Gimli in LOTR comic relief + burping in the presence of royalty, which IMO is a lot different than a bunch of dwarves letting their hair down. E.g., I might not have missed the references to various types of stickiness or the depictions . But then again, NONE of that bothers me - if it bothers me at all - as much as some other stuff like not enough IMO dwarf-time.
If the "Jacksonian juvenility" was something I truly found offensive - well, I suppose I would ask tho, to consider all the things that PJ has done so very right IMO. That a few mild vulgarities at the choice of the director who may have been throwing that kind of thing in for himself, for children in the audience, to emphasize the rough-and-tumble of dwarves??? for a global audience to get a point across??? - is a small thing compared to the performances, aesthetics, camera work, and so on. E.g., the respect PJ and WETA showed. Because they didn't HAVE to. I can never get del Toro's metal armadillos or whatever those were out of my head.
http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/danann.html
The Tuatha Dé Danann ("People of the Goddess Danu") were one of the mythical races who settled in Ireland before the arrival of the Milesians, the ancestors of modern Gaels. The Dananns were descendants of the goddess Danu. Her son Dagda was their most powerful leader of the Dananns. The Tuatha Dé Dananns were a race of deities as well as race of heroes. They were skilled in art and science, poetry and magic. They were said to come from four mythical cities: Falias, Gorias, Finias and Murias. When they came to live in Ireland, the Dananns received four magic treasures or talismans, one from each city. Before the Tuatha Dé Danann migrated to Ireland, they had learned all their skills from for four wizards/bards (druids) from these four cities. Morfesa from Falias, Esras from Gorias, Semias from Murias and Uiscias from Findias. (See the Druids of Danu) After the Milesians defeated the Dananns, the Dananns either retreated to Tir na n-Og ("Land of Youth") or they continued to lived on the land with the Milesians, but their homes (subterranean palaces) were hidden by magic from the eyes of mortals. Their homes were commonly called Sidhe (síd or sídh) or the Otherworld. Another name for the Tuatha Dé Danann was the áes sídhe or the "People of the Sídhe". In the Otherworld, the Danann remained young and seemingly immortal. Immortal in the sense, they can live a very long life and remain young, but they can be killed and destroyed, just like any mortal.
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Morthoron
Gondor
Jul 3 2016, 1:40am
Post #47 of 71
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Thank you for the civil reply.
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And I do understand your thoughts on the parallels between Tolkien's work and Celtic/Gaelic myth. In fact, at one time several decades ago, being enthralled by the works of W.B. Yeats, Seumas MacManus, Padraic Colum and Lady Gregory, I had considered the connection between the great cycles of Irish myth and Tolkien.
Unfortunately, digging further, I found that Tolkien cordially disliked Celtic myth, as in his statement from Letter 19:
"I do know Celtic things (many in their original languages Irish and Welsh) and feel for them a certain distaste: largely for their fundamental unreason. They have bright colour, but are like a broken stained glass window reassembled without design. They are in fact ’mad’ as your reader says - but I don’t believe I am."
His disinterest goes further. In a letter to Milton Waldman (Letter 131), Tolkien discusses the idea of building an English mythos and touches upon the idea of Celtic legend again:
"It should possess the tone and quality that I desired....possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be ‘high’, purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land long now steeped in poetry."
He bemoaned the fact that Elves do not appear hardly at all in English tales: "In all English poetry 'elves' (ylfe) occurs only once, in Beowulf", and thus he resorted to gleaning information from Germanic and Icelandic sources (The Nibelungenlied and Voluspa, for instance) and the Finnish (The Kalevala).
I think the view that he took anything from Irish or Welsh (save the language) is highly improbable, however intriguing.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Jul 3 2016, 1:41am)
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Gianna
Rohan
Jul 3 2016, 3:14am
Post #48 of 71
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I believe del Toro was only involved in AUJ...
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...and bits that made it into the other two films, before he left the project. Apparently his original script was very close to the book, and the most book-accurate scenes were largely his work. (e.g. the "Good morning" scene between Gandalf and Bilbo, and the riddle contest.) That's what I've heard, anyway.
I'm sure it's the first three that are responsible for "I could have anything down my trousers"...
~There's some good left in this world. And it's worth fighting for.~
------
My website...
...my fantasy novel Seascape...
...and my fantasy novel Starscape.
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TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan
Jul 3 2016, 3:30am
Post #49 of 71
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This line of reasoning goes nowhere
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Because without "Beowulf" and other mythological tales there would be no "LotR" novel (as is) and without serialized T.V. shows from the 30's and 40's and Kurosawa there would be no "Star Wars" (as is) and so it goes for everything until we're left with just God Himself as the original catalyst. None of what came from who how and when matters.
Tolkien may be the god of *what he wrote*, but he is not the god of great literature and his work is imperfect, yet wonderful. Lucas is the god of the original "SW" trilogy, which is flawed yet still wonderful, but he is not the god of keeping creative juices pure and flowing for over 15 years and though he may be the god of the prequels, that's akin to being the lord over the NY sewer system.
Without Jackson, there would be no live action "LotR" and "Hobbit" films and he is the 'god' of these works. They are also not perfect (although, taken as a single motion picture, "LotR" comes closer to perfection than the rest referenced in this post), but they are indeed wonderful in the eyes of myself and many the world over.
"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War
(This post was edited by TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense on Jul 3 2016, 3:33am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 3 2016, 3:50am
Post #50 of 71
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Because without "Beowulf" and other mythological tales there would be no "LotR" novel (as is) and without serialized T.V. shows from the 30's and 40's and Kurosawa there would be no "Star Wars" (as is) and so it goes for everything until we're left with just God Himself as the original catalyst. None of what came from who how and when matters.
Do you mean the chapter serials such as Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon? Those were shown in movie theaters; there were no such television shows in the 1930s and '40s. Those serials did, doubtless, inspire such shows as Captain Video, Space Patrol and Tom Corbett, Space Cadet. And of course Star Wars.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 3 2016, 3:57am)
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Too true IMO
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