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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Screenplay by Fran Wlash, Peter Jackson, Philipa Boyens and Guillermo del Toro
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DainPig
Gondor


Jun 29 2016, 1:22am

Post #1 of 71 (3292 views)
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Screenplay by Fran Wlash, Peter Jackson, Philipa Boyens and Guillermo del Toro Can't Post

So these are the guys responsible for things such as "I could have anything dn owmy trousers"?

"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."

dainpigblog.blogspot.com

historiasderafaelrodriguesdarocha.blogspot.com


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 29 2016, 3:26pm

Post #2 of 71 (3091 views)
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Among many other things :D [In reply to] Can't Post

Though to be fair, the trilogy did also have some standout moments. I just wish there was another set of eyes or someone who could rein them in with the obviously bad writing and decisions.

The Hobbit Soundtracks - Being an online archive of information concerning Howard Shore's score for The Hobbit films.

(This post was edited by Earl on Jun 29 2016, 3:28pm)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jun 29 2016, 6:33pm

Post #3 of 71 (3065 views)
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Don't know why some have such a problem with that line [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's hilarious - and I'm a woman! Honestly, I can see a lot of men saying something like that, under those circumstances. (Hm, probably doesn't say much about the company I keepBlush)

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 29 2016, 7:54pm

Post #4 of 71 (3042 views)
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Ha! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Don't know why some have such a problem with that line


Imagine the screams of outrage and anguish if Kili had spouted a line that was actually raunchy! Evil

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"


Avandel
Half-elven


Jun 29 2016, 8:52pm

Post #5 of 71 (3031 views)
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OK, me too [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I think it's hilarious - and I'm a woman! Honestly, I can see a lot of men saying something like that, under those circumstances. (Hm, probably doesn't say much about the company I keepBlush)


Because it's Kili, as played by Aidan Turner. It's adorableSmile IMO. I'm not even a Tauriel fan and props to EL as I think her expression is perfect. So is Kili's. Props to both actorsHeart. Besides, Kili is a young dwarf, who has been on the road, which to my mind means he's spent time around rowdy men, dwarves, in taverns - yeah, sure, in an atmosphere like that Fili and Kili would sit primly in front of their fruity cocktails and never crack a smile or join in.Unimpressed

I never understood the fuss, really. Some of it seems to be offense from guys (here's some slob talking about what's in his pants! - kudos that that kind of chivalry still lives - much appreciated guys!SmileSmileSmile 'coz these days there is way too much SHARING and rudeness!Frown) and females (why can't we have males/females without bringing up that kind of THING [except everyone knows Thorin, Thorin's Hair, Thranduil, Bard, Fili and Kili are hawt so that's OK]Evil ).

And a big issue is that it's felt to be not in the spirit of Tolkien. That Tolkien never would have written anything like that. Although he DID write about a lot of bad stuff, so just sayin'. REAL bad.Shocked

And some of it I think is just a contingent of I-hate-these-dwarves-and-the-way-they-look so ANYTHING is just more justification to "prove" how WRONG PJ was and how he desecrated a classic work (you know, the one where Kili says 4 words total, I thinkAngelic).

So IMO it's not the company you keep, LOL. I think you can still smile at that scene and still read any of these - the list includes the Sil, too.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/louispeitzman/the-25-most-challenging-books-you-will-ever-read?utm_term=.fnw8jVdQ2e#.ttVPNGz3Aq

“With Manwë dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Eä. Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Ilúvatar lives still in her face. In light is her power and her joy. Out of the deeps of Eä she came to the aid of Manwë; for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru made.”

(Tho I don't agree that 100 Years of Solitude is "challenging" - it's a favorite of mine; wondrous and magical and bittersweet.....Heart)


DainPig
Gondor


Jun 29 2016, 9:31pm

Post #6 of 71 (3019 views)
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It's kinda ridiculous [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean, that's what the love story is about? A horny dwarf? That's how we are introduced to it.

"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."

dainpigblog.blogspot.com

historiasderafaelrodriguesdarocha.blogspot.com


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jun 29 2016, 10:12pm

Post #7 of 71 (3008 views)
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Ah, I see [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I mean, that's what the love story is about? A horny dwarf? That's how we are introduced to it.


Well of course, that's not how I see it. I always saw it as a way for Kili to "assert" himself in a situation where he's somewhat powerless. Like I said, I can see a lot of guys (decent or not) saying something along those lines. It was flirtatious, if a bit rude, and meant to "test the waters," and of course she rejects him. But THEN they have that talk, later, about his mother, the feast of starlight, etc., find common ground - THAT is where the "love story" really comes from. Like "Pride & Prejudice," they discover that first impressions and class assumptions are not always accurate.Wink

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Fereth
Rivendell


Jun 30 2016, 12:16am

Post #8 of 71 (2993 views)
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I don't get the outrage, either. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just saw it as cheek and nothing more. I liked that Tauriel shot him down so cooly, usually these kinds of jokes have the female character reacting with helpless anger.


Avandel
Half-elven


Jun 30 2016, 2:01am

Post #9 of 71 (2976 views)
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THIS [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I just saw it as cheek and nothing more.



And the dwarves ARE cheeky in way, tho that's not the right word. Defiant. Kili and Tauriel have that instant warrior bond thing going on, too. Tauriel saves Kili.


MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien

Jun 30 2016, 5:37am

Post #10 of 71 (2963 views)
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My vote for "Most Un-Tolkien Moment" [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't like it because it felt totally out of place in Middle-Earth. Avandel mentioned Pride and Prejudice, and IMO having genitalia jokes in a Tolkien adaptation feels as jarring as if someone said the F word in a Jane Austen movie. It just doesn't mesh with this universe.

Although actually, I'd have to say it's only the 2nd most un-Tolkien. Most un-Tolkien was Aragorn beheading an unarmed messenger. During parley. Crazy


LSF
Gondor

Jun 30 2016, 6:38am

Post #11 of 71 (2947 views)
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fits for me [In reply to] Can't Post

It totally fits for me, because it fits within the context of how the dwarves are as a whole in the movies. They're a rougher kind of people. Now I would get the problem if it was an elf like Elrond saying a line like that. Maybe within the context of the books and how those are worded and written it doesn't fit, but in these movies, it does.

Really, I always found Gimli's burping during the strategy meetings in Rohan and Gondor more disruptive or out-of-place. Though I recognize that was only disruptive within the scene, and not the overall world.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 30 2016, 2:06pm

Post #12 of 71 (2904 views)
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The Dwarves are supposed to be 'earthy'... [In reply to] Can't Post

And the Wood-elves are supposed to be a bit rough around the edges when compared to the High Elves. I'm just amused that Tauriel holds her own so easily in that scene. She ain't no shrinking violet.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"


Nuradar
Rohan


Jun 30 2016, 2:40pm

Post #13 of 71 (2902 views)
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agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that line is fine. In fact, I think it's funny, and I laugh every time I watch the movie.

It's cheeky, and naughty, and because of that, it's funny.


Avandel
Half-elven


Jun 30 2016, 4:03pm

Post #14 of 71 (2885 views)
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but IMO [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Most un-Tolkien was Aragorn beheading an unarmed messenger. During parley. Crazy


I would still respectfully suggest that we don't know, really, what Tolkien may or may not have regarded as a moment or his thoughts because anyone's thoughts change constantly. And personally I really enjoy Aragorn in that moment. Cool

Besides, to this day MoS to me is one of the creepiest face designs I've ever seen on anything....ShockedShockedShocked I can't blame Aragorn...



And if ASMUS is including a sword with their fig, then this messenger was armed - I never noticed. ASMUS should include a spare head you can have roll around besides all the mouths.




LittleHobbit
Lorien

Jun 30 2016, 5:12pm

Post #15 of 71 (2878 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

And you didn't know? Wink PJ is the director, producer and also screenwriter. Aren't people here supposed supposed to be 'obsessed' with these movies and know almost everything? Interestenly enough, I also came acroos an ''apologist'' on Youtube who would comment on almost every Hobbit-related video, and defend PJ from any criticisms, who apparently also did NOT know that the trilogy had four screeenwriters and who they were. Smile

And again, I am not supposed to know how the Kili/Tauriel exchange is NOT supposed to fit unless this movie/trilogy was intentend for 6 year-olds or something. Today's audience cant' handle a SINGLE 'innuendo' joke and some violence in a story that warrants some (such as the story that is told in the book).

Pray tell, what is the problem with having ONE line that supposedly doesn't ''fit'' (whatever ''fit'' even MEANS in the first place -- that's ''undefinable'', I guess) in a, as I have said repeatedly, a 10+ hour trilogy?

But to not be disrespectful in the end, to EACH his OWN, I guess. Frown And everyone is entitled to their view, however unfounded and nonsensical it may seem.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jun 30 2016, 5:36pm

Post #16 of 71 (2868 views)
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Actually, that was me [In reply to] Can't Post

who mentioned "Pride & Prejudice." Avandel was quoting from the Sil. But my point with P&P was the relationship between the characters as compared to Kili & Tauriel. Evangeline mentions in the Appendices that originally, Kili & Tauriel's first meeting was supposed to be more hostile, with some arguing that there should be an "instant attraction." She said she was glad that scene was cut, because the two sides couldn't agree on hostile vs. instant attraction (though I'd argue that Kili was at least quite impressed with her on that first meeting). Anyway, if you'll recall the first meeting between Elizabeth & Darcy in P&P was a bit frosty, informed by first impressions and class assumptions, which is what I think that "Aren't you going to search me?" line was attempting to get at. (Btw, I'm pretty sure there was some foul language in P&P & Zombies, just sayin') But that's just me. Obviously you've read quite a bit more Tolkien than I have, and you have a firmly fixed idea of what qualifies as "Tolkien." I, on the other hand, haven't read LoTR in years (keep planning to re-read this summer, we'll see), and have no such preconceived notions, so maybe that's what makes it easier for me to laugh at the line instead of disapprove.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Gianna
Rohan


Jun 30 2016, 5:50pm

Post #17 of 71 (2870 views)
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No. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Today's audience cant' handle a SINGLE 'innuendo' joke and some violence in a story that warrants some (such as the story that is told in the book).


A children's book from the 1930's does not warrant innuendo. And today's audience seems to be quite capable of handling that kind of joke. What they apparently can't handle is a movie that doesn't employ some level of dirty joke or unnecessary violence.

If you remember his channel name, I wouldn't mind checking out that YT "apologist" Wink

~There's some good left in this world. And it's worth fighting for.~
------
My website...
...my fantasy novel Seascape...
...and my fantasy novel Starscape.


wizzardly
Rohan


Jun 30 2016, 11:19pm

Post #18 of 71 (2817 views)
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Yes! [In reply to] Can't Post

Couldn't agree more! A line like that belongs in an adam sandler movie, not in an adaptation of one of the most cherished children's books of all time.


Morthoron
Gondor


Jun 30 2016, 11:34pm

Post #19 of 71 (2813 views)
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Considering the rapid decline in the Dwarvish population... [In reply to] Can't Post

And there noted disinterest in sex, the line is out of character. The lure of gold and jewels had a far greater attraction to Dwarves than procreation.

But given Jackson's noted proclivity for low humor and terminally bad dialogue, its insertion into the film is par for the course.

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 1 2016, 12:57am

Post #20 of 71 (2793 views)
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Rapid? [In reply to] Can't Post

Your rapid decline wasn't due to cultural factors but was caused by the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. Otherwise, any decline was a slow, gradual one.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"


Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 1 2016, 1:47am

Post #21 of 71 (2785 views)
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Depends... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
an adaptation of one of the most cherished children's books of all time.


1)Adaptation.



"Based on....". Not carbon copy....


2) It's a surprise when the director has openly said he didn't want to make a children's movie? And he's working to integrate the films w. the rather grim LOTR?


Quote
I’m pretty much aware that once these three movies are done and they’ve had their theatrical life, we’re really looking at a six-movie sit which is the way that it will all exist from that point on. I am very conscious in wanting to make it feel like a very organic story with synergy and everything connecting with each other. It wouldn’t have been that easy if we had shot The Hobbit first, because it is such a different tone of a book. We might have just locked into that much more fairytale tone which would have made The Lord of the Rings, if that had happened second, a much more difficult adaptation in a way, because it would have been hard for the two to talk to each other.


http://collider.com/...bit-48fps-interview/


Or, to look at it another way, if the Hobbit had remained a whimsical children's film (being marketed with any number of competing whimsical children's films in the market) I would have waited to see it on cable. So IMO Kili can be cheeky with some elvesCool and Bilbo can NOT be unconscious through the battle and so on.



LSF
Gondor

Jul 1 2016, 2:03am

Post #22 of 71 (2783 views)
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even if this was... [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if this was a "children's movie" (rated PG and not the PG-13 that this is and was made to be), there are quite a few "children's" movies with adult-targeted visual or verbal innuendo or jokes, like Toy Story, Road to El Dorado, Shrek, Madagascar... Wink

In response to the quote, yeah, I can see LOTR being harder to do if they had done "fairytale tone" Hobbit first.


Fereth
Rivendell


Jul 1 2016, 2:23am

Post #23 of 71 (2773 views)
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And... [In reply to] Can't Post

In all her 600 or so years as a Mirkwood guard, Tauriel's probably heard and told far raunchier jokes. Kili's comment may well have been the lamest thing she ever heard, judging by her reaction. Cool


(This post was edited by Fereth on Jul 1 2016, 2:24am)


Morthoron
Gondor


Jul 1 2016, 2:45am

Post #24 of 71 (2761 views)
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The War of the Dwarves and Orcs... [In reply to] Can't Post

certainly hastened a decline that had already begun. Tolkien refers to them as a "dwindling race" and that only 1/3 of the population was female. The War caused a precipitous decline that was never overcome, mainly due to the Dwarves' lack of interest.

In Appendix A, Regarding Dwarves:

"It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings...The number of Dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third. For not all the women take husbands: some desire none, some desire one they cannot get, and so will have no other. As for the men, very many also do not desire marriage, being engrossed in their crafts."

Do the math: 1/3 of the race is women and less than 1/3 of the men are even interested, plus wars in Moria then Erebor (twice). Not a recipe for fecundity. Wink

Again, inane line from poorly written dialogue and uncharacteristic of the Dwarves themselves.

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



MedwedtoBeorn
Rivendell

Jul 1 2016, 2:58am

Post #25 of 71 (2758 views)
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spirit [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's not so much an objection to it being based on the Hobbit as it is that type of humor is not very Tolkienesque. Tolkien was a master of the English language and quite honestly I have not found any author of fiction that writes with command of the language or the incredible way that he interweaves visual pictures, themes, and applicable concepts into a narrative.

Original script is fine, for instance Bilbo's speech outside the Goblin caves or Gandalf and Galadriel's dialog after the White Council are good examples of finding the spirit of Tolkien.

I think the criticisms, praise or comments of PJ usually fall into one of four categories. One is visual direction, two is casting, three is original dialog and humor, and four is fidelity or changes to the book narrative and/or characters.

Contemporary or over the top humor is one of the bigger criticisms whether it is dialog as the OP or characterizations like Gimli or created characters like Alfrid and that it doesn't feel like Tolkien and therefore breaks the reality.

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