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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jun 11 2016, 8:26am
Post #1 of 22
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Lotr read-through The black gate opens part two: The mouth of Sauron is not a very nice man
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But at least he is a man! But more on that later. The host of the west travel in just about the opposite direction of Frodo and Sam earlier. Just a coincidence? After a false victory they are watched and Aragorn dismisses the faint-hearted. I can't help nowadays but think of the Bored of the Rings comment at this point. And with only six thousand they approach to Morannon. Now, there has been some discussion about strategy comments on my previous post. I have thought do they actually need an army at all? If Aragorn with Gandalf and a few Captains had done the same journey, stuck two fingers up at Sauron at every point, wouldn't Sauron's reaction be, 'I will have total victory if I get the Ring, so I will devote all my forces to these people anyway.'
One thing I do get about this chapter is the it is rather depressing. After the miraculous triumphs of recent texts, we are kicked back into the feeling we had in the middle of the Siege of Gondor. I always do get a sense of frustration reading this chapter. It just doesn't seem fair that after all of those victories against the odds, now they seem to count for nowt, but more on that later! On my final post which will be on Sunday and a bit of an off-beat one, I'm warning you now! Still, I suppose that it is only now that we see the full might of Sauron. Up till now, the good guys have been merely dodging it. Or dealing with pathetic pretenders such as Saruman. Or facing an almost laughable and ill-prepared and hasty attack on Gondor. This is it, no trickery here, this is what the full might of Sauron looks like and no escape.
Now we have a 'delegation,' from the Mouth of Sauron. Not a very nice man, I get the impression! But at least he is a man, I suppose. But one more evil than any Orc. But maybe not as bad as a Ringwraith. So, what is worse, an Orc, Mouthy or a Ringwraith? We could have a poll! I have wondered as to his name, or address, I suppose. Des this mean that Sauron has no mouth of his own, or am I taking this too literally? Another point I wonder is where he is in the Barad-dur high command. Number two, perhaps he knows much of the mind of Sauron, was he higher ranked than the Nazgul? does the fact that he would rule the West make him up or down in Sauron's mind. anyway one thing that is implied is that the Ring-bearer is captured and now there is no hope. but, erm, hasn't this been before and proved wrong? Anyway, though this seems that have covered this chapter, there will be one more rather general and reflective post on it tomorrow!
(This post was edited by Hamfast Gamgee on Jun 11 2016, 8:27am)
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a.s.
Valinor
Jun 11 2016, 1:02pm
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Sauron has been fighting the righteous and proud for a long time
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I have thought do they actually need an army at all? If Aragorn with Gandalf and a few Captains had done the same journey, stuck two fingers up at Sauron at every point, wouldn't Sauron's reaction be, 'I will have total victory if I get the Ring, so I will devote all my forces to these people anyway.'
I think they need to look plausibly like a righteous, holy, and most importantly proud army of the good making a last ditch desperate attack. Sauron's been up against the forces of light before. He needs to see righteous men marching toward their inevitable death at a last, futile battle because that is what he would expect the silly good people to do.
Also, if Sauron was somehow fooled into thinking that Aragorn had the ring, he would not expect to see Aragorn come challenge him directly accompanied by only a small retinue, because the Ring corrupts by the temptation to absolute power. He would expect a blatant display of developing power. He would expect to see what he is shown: proud men marching with their captain through the land proclaiming I am the King, these are my lands now, and acting all unafraid.
I don't think (although it is frightfully hard to speak for the Devil!!) that Sauron actually thinks Aragorn has the ring, but this feint is probably enough to give him some small doubt about it.
one thing that is implied is that the Ring-bearer is captured and now there is no hope.
But Gandalf knows the shirt and sword are from two different hobbits. And while he is so very sad, I think he reads correctly that Sauron is sending a herald for a parley only because Sauron needs to use this display of tokens as a manipulative attempt. If he actually had the Ring, he would just crush this little party of honorable men without any parley at all.
And as to no hope? The wind is running down from the North, not the East today.
We shall see.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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InTheChair
Rohan
Jun 11 2016, 3:14pm
Post #3 of 22
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Ring of power, going once, going twice, going... Oh no my tower is crumbling!
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I have thought do they actually need an army at all? If Aragorn with Gandalf and a few Captains had done the same journey, stuck two fingers up at Sauron at every point, wouldn't Sauron's reaction be, 'I will have total victory if I get the Ring, so I will devote all my forces to these people anyway.'
No. Saurons fear is that someone wil use the ring to supplant him. No matter how strong they are personally that cannot be achieved with just a few men. An army is of the essence. He could otherwise have kept the doors closed and waited for dissention.
Still, I suppose that it is only now that we see the full might of Sauron. Up till now, the good guys have been merely dodging it. Or dealing with pathetic pretenders such as Saruman. Or facing an almost laughable and ill-prepared and hasty attack on Gondor. This is it, no trickery here, this is what the full might of Sauron looks like and no escape.
Not really. This is just another one of Saurons many armies. The one that he happened to have still in Mordor. Much larger than the forces of the West of course, but not by far the full might of Sauron. He has armies up north near Erebor, and probably countless more in the East and South.
I have wondered as to his name, or address, I suppose. Des this mean that Sauron has no mouth of his own, or am I taking this too literally?
Early outlines suggest that the name Mordu, or Mor-something was tried out, but it didn't stick, which is good, I don't like it very much.
He calls himself the mouth of Sauron which is also strange, given Aragorn previous judgements on the matter 'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken'. (At least in the assumption that Aragorn considers Sauron his right name.) Elvish name meaning something like the abhorred, so if the Red book has a literal translation he termed himself the mouth of the abhorred. Possibly he used some other name, maybe Zigur, but the chroniclers of Gondor, or the Hobbits exchanged it for Sauron for unknown reasons.
Another point I wonder is where he is in the Barad-dur high command. Number two, perhaps he knows much of the mind of Sauron, was he higher ranked than the Nazgul? does the fact that he would rule the West make him up or down in Sauron's mind.
Difficult to say where he stands in relation to the Nazgul who would be much older than he is. An interesting consideration though is that with the Witch-king defeated, and Sauron possessing the nine, there appears to be one free ring up for bidding. If this Mouth of Sauron is next in line for that ring, and the command of Orthanc, then he must be high in the hierarchy of Mordor indeed, and the difference between him and a ringwraith not much more than time and formality. For the moment though he is as you say a Man.
(This post was edited by InTheChair on Jun 11 2016, 3:15pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 12 2016, 9:55am
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I like the idea that the Mouth of Sauron has so lost his identity in his service that he no longer remembers his name. That makes him pitiable as well as foul.
Reading this section, I suddenly had the idea of a plot twist whereby the Mouth of Sauron is all that is left of Eärnur, the last king of Gondor (who was captiluref by the Witch King 2050 TA, leading to the Stewards of Gondor being pro them rulers). That would be one of Sauron's nice little jokes! The idea amused me for a while, so I though I'd share it. There's no textual backing for it - quite the opposite, given what we are told is assumed about Mouth's origins.
~~~~~~
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 12 2016, 10:18am
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Who believes at this point that Sauron has captured Frodo, the Ring or both?
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When I say 'who believes' I mean both 'who as a reader on their first reading' and 'which of Aragorn's delegation'?
There are various things going on in that section and I'm not sire I can pick them apart. But perhaps with help...
Tolkien seems to want to rack up the tension - as readers we surely realise quickly that if Sauron has captured the Ring, he's about to do - well whatever unstoppably powerful thing he could do if he'd got it. So from a story telling point of view I suppose that Tolkien is happy to near-convince us that Sauron has It (and yet we probably struggle to believe that the book could have such as simple and negative ending, so are left in suspense).
We must assume, I think, that the 'spy' and the Ring are in no way connected in Sauron's suspicions (if the were, then surely Frodo and Sam would found Mount Doom closely guarded, and a really determined drag net after them, not the half-hearted effort that they manage to elude). From our discussions so far, I think we mostly assume that Sauron thinks Aragorn (or perhaps one of the others) has the Ring, and he's shortly to crush them militarily and get it. So I suppose he hopes to learn a little more of this puzzling spy, who perhaps makes him feel uneasy in a knowing-this-is-some-kind-of-a-portent way. And of course, an opportunity for a little cruelty never should be wasted, if your're Sauron.
Pippin, of course, can be allowed to assume wholeheartedly that Sauron has nabbed Frodo and Sam - that helps Tolkien wind us readers up.
What does Gandalf think? My reading is that he realises from the trophies shown that Sauron has not nabbed both hobbits. So clearly this is a trick at some level, and there is no sense in telling Sauron anything. Maybe one or both of the hobbits are still at large?
In earlier discussions, we've speculated about whether Gandalf would know directly if Sauron had recovered the One Ring - the argument goes that he is the Ringbearer of one of the Three Rings, and might be able to have a sort of mental connection with Sauron - the kind of thing that Galadriel hints at in discussion with Frodo.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 12 2016, 12:13pm
Post #6 of 22
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Eärnur and the Mouth of Sauron
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Eärnur seems to be a very unlikely candidate to be the Mouth of Sauron. Even if the former king could have been corrupted and turned to evil, the Lieutenant of Barad-dûr is said to be a living Man and Eärnur had gone to face the Witch-king nearly one thousand years earlier. The rumors of the Mouth of Sauron being a Black Númenórean were far more likely to be true.
What seems more likely as Eärnur's fate is that he was tortured and killed by the Lord of the Nazgûl, if not by Sauron himself. Another possibility, though, is that Eärnur was transformed into a lesser Wraith who served the Wraith-lord. There might even be those of the Wise who were aware of this, but kept it out of the histories of Middle-earth so as not to further tarnish the reputation of the last king of the Line of Anárion.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
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a.s.
Valinor
Jun 12 2016, 1:42pm
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What does Gandalf think? My reading is that he realises from the trophies shown that Sauron has not nabbed both hobbits. So clearly this is a trick at some level, and there is no sense in telling Sauron anything. Maybe one or both of the hobbits are still at large?
I agree, for this reason:
He can tell from the trophies that they come from two hobbits (Sam's sword, Frodo's mithril cloak).
But the Ring still exists, or else there'd be no Sauron to send his herald for a parley.
If Sauron had the Ring, he would possibly still have tortured the company by displaying the beloved trophies, but he would have gloated over having the Ring, not just playing a bluff.
So one of the of the hobbits still probably has the Ring.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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InTheChair
Rohan
Jun 12 2016, 1:57pm
Post #10 of 22
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The rumors of the Mouth of Sauron being a Black Númenórean were far more likely to be true.
Yes.
Could have been a fun idea to say the he was some kind of descendant of Earnur of course, but since he is stated to descend from the Black Numenoreans it's gonna have to a no.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 12 2016, 3:24pm
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Could have been a fun idea to say the he was some kind of descendant of Earnur of course, but since he is stated to descend from the Black Numenoreans it's gonna have to a no.
Well, it is not stated as absolute fact that the Mouth of Sauron was a Black Númenórean, but the background given for him is surprisingly detailed, if brief:
But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.
Presumably, this represents information that Frodo unearthed during his time in Minas Tirith before returning to the Shire.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
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squire
Half-elven
Jun 12 2016, 4:04pm
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I think when Tolkien says "it is told" in his background briefings, with no suggestion that there is any conflicting story, we may take it for an authorial fact. This text "states" that the Mouth was a Black Numenorean -- in the sense of being "of the race", whatever that may mean after several thousand years of Sauron's absence. The term has the same validity, I guess, as calling Aragorn a Numenorean or Dunedain.
After all, if we follow the fictional schema that Tolkien occasionally indulges in, of there being a historical manuscript assembled from many sources and translated into English by a single, unsupported modern scholar , it's hard to say that anything in the story is an "absolute fact".
Within the context of that Red Book gag, I agree that Frodo could have written this based on his stay in Minas Tirith that year.But it could have been added by an unknown hobbit in later years during research in Rivendell or Gondor; or it could be the product of the editing done by Elessar's scholars who are said to have added a lot of background to the hobbits' story after they got hold of a copy of the Red Book courtesy of Thain Pippin.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 13 2016, 10:35pm
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"And many fruitless victories."
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One thing I do get about this chapter is the it is rather depressing. After the miraculous triumphs of recent texts, we are kicked back into the feeling we had in the middle of the Siege of Gondor. I always do get a sense of frustration reading this chapter. It just doesn't seem fair that after all of those victories against the odds, now they seem to count for nowt, but more on that later! I appreciate what you say about the mood of this chapter, and I wouldn't mind taking a side trip to Cair Andros myself at some points. On first read, I thought Sauron had been beaten on the Pelennor, and Gondor was saved. Not only that, but that scariest of Scaries, the chief of the Black Riders that had haunted me since the Shire, had been killed by a couple of underdogs. It just couldn't get any better! Yes, there were losses along the way, like Theoden (I didn't care about Denethor), but even people who seemed doomed to die were brought back to life by Aragorn in the Houses of Healing. This seemed like a solid, war-ending victory which Helm's Deep did not. So I was mighty disappointed to march up to Sauron's gate and get encircled by a superior army that there was no hope of defeating, and all along the way it was depressing getting there.
That's me as a reader. I would say from a literary point of view, Tolkien needs to remind us that Denethor was right, and Sauron could no longer be defeated in battle as he had in the past, and the book is all about destroying the Ring, and that really, really needs to happen. That is coupled with the reminder that Sauron's evil is far greater than anyone's good, hence the journey to Mordor is fraught with gloom and portents.
All of which builds to that wonderful climax when the Ring is destroyed (haha, spoilers!), Frodo is rescued, and Aragorn's army survives. To feel that wonderful joy later, we need to suffer as readers at this point, I suppose.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 13 2016, 10:43pm
Post #14 of 22
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"Here are the marks of a conspiracy."
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I have always liked how the Mouth rattles off the lineage of the items he has, as if a sort of United Nations donation basket has been supporting Frodo & Sam, showing the Free World galvanized against tyranny. And I also like how Tolkien puts the language of tyrants into the Mouth's mouth, the way that tyrants are usually paranoid and obsessed with conspiracies against them, which they use as justification for ever greater tyranny. He doesn't say something like, "Your pathetic little band of allies won't defeat Sauron a second time" or "Sauron has more allies than you ever will." No, his reaction is that there is some sinister cabal plotting against the only legitimate authority, Sauron, so of course it must be crushed not only for Sauron's sake, but for the public good as well. Tolkien doesn't attribute much direct dialogue to the bad guys, but when he does, it sounds awfully familiar to what dictators past and present say in the news media.
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Solicitr
Gondor
Jun 25 2016, 6:14pm
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"Legitimate Authority" or "Benevolent Despotism?"
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"The greater good" has been used as a rationale by the enemies of freedom, great and small, since time immemorial.
And let's recall that no villain regards himself as a villain. Shakespeare be damned, there aren't any Iagos or Richard IIIs. Every bastard, no matter how vile, those as mean as Gollum or as grand as Ar-Pharazon, can rationalize his actions to himself. Saruman actually believed that "knowledge, rule, order" were laudable goals, justifying "whatever small evils" might be required. This obsession with the universal benefits of "order" can be seen in everyone from Emperor Palpatine to Stalin-- if only the silly fools would give up their own stupid goals and do what the Party or the Crown or the Electoral Majority knows is best for them- and even the "order" achieved by Melkor's faction in the Music of the Ainur.
Now, can the same be said for Sauron?
(This post was edited by Solicitr on Jun 25 2016, 6:18pm)
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squire
Half-elven
Jun 25 2016, 7:04pm
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It's not clear that Sauron thinks of things as evil or good
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It seems to me that he sees things entirely as either belonging to him or under his control, or else not yet belonging to him or under his control. He doesn't seem to cloak his lust for power with any false rhetoric about the greater good, or order and system. That's why his minions, in this case the Mouth, sound like bad villains from Victorian melodrama. Shakespeare this ain't.
If I remember, Tolkien suggests that that kind of pitch was, once, Sauron's self-considered motive in line with that of his master Melkor/Morgoth, who originally had aspired to be an artist and creator in competition with Eru Himself. But the millennia of corruption by great power have burned Sauron down to a glowing cinder of pure domination: it's all about Sauron for Sauron's sake, and no one else's.
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a.s.
Valinor
Jun 27 2016, 11:26am
Post #17 of 22
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in fact, he began with "fair motives"
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If I remember, Tolkien suggests that that kind of pitch was, once, Sauron's self-considered motive in line with that of his master Melkor/Morgoth, who originally had aspired to be an artist and creator in competition with Eru Himself. But the millennia of corruption by great power have burned Sauron down to a glowing cinder of pure domination:
I letter 131 to Milton Waldman, explaining how the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings were interconnected, Tolkien explains Sauron this way:
"In the Silmarillion and Tales of the First Age, Sauron was a being of Valinor perverted to the service of the Enemy and becoming his chief captain and servant. He repents in fear when the First Enemy is utterly defeated but in the end does not do as was commanded, return to the judgement of the gods. He lingers in Middle-earth. Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, 'neglected by the gods', he becomes a reincarnation of Evil, ad a thing lusting for Complete Power."
a.s. (who wonders why Tolkien put "neglected by the gods" in quotation marks---what's he referring to?)
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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squire
Half-elven
Jun 27 2016, 12:49pm
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I've always found that 'repentance' and 'fair motives' a little dicey
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In The Silmarillion, as we now have it, Sauron is really pretty evil - as one might expect from Morgoth's lieutenant. I've never understood what Tolkien imagined "repentance" to mean in such a case: Being really, really sorry? Pledging to make amends? Dedicating his eternal life thereafter to abasement and the care of widows and orphans? A quiet life of meditation on the nature of sin and guilt? And of course, he proves not to be 'repentant' at all, in that he fears or refuses to submit himself to the justice of the Valar.
Ditto for 'fair motives' - wanting to 'reorganise and rehabilitate' Middle-earth is one thing, wanting to do that so as to establish a new power base and unassailable haven from future attacks is another. Here is where Tolkien, for once and I guess in service to a rather stereotypical story, has forgotten to insert his usual 'seeming' language of ambiguity and doubt. He should have said that Sauron 'seemed' to repent; and "beginning with seemingly fair motives."
Good catch on the quotes on 'neglected by the gods.' I strongly suspect that's a reference to some work of classical poetry or another, which he expects Waldman (a Yale man and noted Renaissance historian) will pick up on.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 27 2016, 2:27pm
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"neglected by the gods" = Plato quoting Socrates, I think
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Relying upon Googling rather than Yale-honed Renaissance scholarship (it's so much quicker and cheaper!!), I find this:
Wherefore, O judges, be of good cheer about death, and know this of a truth - that no evil can happen to a good man, either in life or after death. He and his are not neglected by the gods; nor has my own approaching end happened by mere chance. But I see clearly that to die and be released was better for me; and therefore the oracle gave no sign. For which reason also, I am not angry with my accusers, or my condemners; they have done me no harm, although neither of them meant to do me any good; and for this I may gently blame them. ... The hour of departure has arrived, and we go our ways - I to die, and you to live. Which is better God only knows. (Socrates' Comments on his Sentence, from Plato's Apology (an account by Plato of Socrates failed defence against charges of impiety and corruption of the morals of the youth) http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/apology.html )
I suppose that by his quote Tolkien wants to suggest that Middle-earth wasn't genuinely 'neglected by the gods' - it should be supposed to be working out some benevolent plan, no matter how much that looks like muddle and chaos. So it didn't require Sauron's energetic (and self-serving) plans for its 'improvement'.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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a.s.
Valinor
Jun 27 2016, 9:30pm
Post #20 of 22
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maybe like Cersei in GOT, "repenting"
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OH YES, we all knew how that was going to go, her seeming repentance notwithstanding.
You are right, sometimes Tolkien did SO wish his story all hung together that he seemingly retrofitted explanations where, in this reader's opinion, he didn't need to. I don't really need to understand Sauron's internal motives to understand he represents a fallen angelic being, and it doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of the LOTR at all to not even KNOW about the "fallen angel" aspect (I did enjoy LOTR that way for many years prior to ever even reading the appedices--but I was young, once).
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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a.s.
Valinor
Jun 27 2016, 9:48pm
Post #21 of 22
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Thanks for that hint, I think this might be the allusion
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Oh, the things I learn on Torn would fill a library.
I found this at the MIT classics site, from Plato as well, in "Laws":
Ath. I think that we have now argued enough with him who delights to accuse the Gods of neglect.
Cle. Yes.
Ath. He has been forced to acknowledge that he is in error, but he still seems to me to need some words of consolation.
Cle. What consolation will you offer him?
Ath. Let us say to the youth:-The ruler of the universe has ordered all things with a view to the excellence and preservation of the whole, and each part, as far as may be, has an action and passion appropriate to it.
{{snipped}}
This is the justice of the Gods who inhabit Olympus. O youth or young man, who fancy that you are neglected by the Gods, know that if you become worse you shall go to the worse souls, or if better to the better, and in every succession of life and death you will do and suffer what like may fitly suffer at the hands of like. This is the justice of heaven, which neither you nor any other unfortunate will ever glory in escaping
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/laws.10.x.html
Not sure how it exactly applies, but I think you are right that the allusion was to Plato.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jun 28 2016, 4:51am
Post #22 of 22
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Reminds me a bit of Lord Feverstone.
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"He had also a perfectly clear conscience and had played no tricks with his mind. He had never slandered another man except to get his job, never cheated except because he wanted money, never really disliked people unless they bored him."
--C.S. Lewis, That Hideous Strength
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