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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 26 2016, 10:18am
Post #1 of 15
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Hobbit, bible, and apocalypse. Round 2.
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Hi all.
A time ago I made a post about the biblical references in the hobit movies. I still find there is a surprising amount of references that for me, and maybe for the chrstian population of this forum stand out.
Oin saying the prophecy about Eerebor and the line "the reing of the beast".
Balin making reference to an "abomination" in the Goblin king hall.
the "we are legion" line from Azog.
The use of the word apocalypse by the master of laketown (form me since the first time I heard it in the omvie totally out of Midle Earth context).
And of course the word "Desolation".
Fore those who are familiar with the Revelation book you will notice those words have importance.
Now visually speaking there are visual metaphors that for me stand out aswell:
The moment Smaug is facing Bard and Bbain, and Bard tells Balin to look at him is a very symbolic moment between a figure that is very Jesus like (Bard) and a figure that is very Satan like (Smaug).
A strong reference is Smaug being lurking in a church like scenario like Erebor. Its a very strong image, and for those familiar with prophecies of many catholic saints and mystics that announced a corruption of the church from within it is a strong reminder of Satan inside the temple.
There are more, but for now its ok.
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to The Battle for the Fifth Trailer
Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero
There and Back Again Traveller
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Jun 26 2016, 2:25pm
Post #2 of 15
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Tolkien was a strong Christian but very much against allegory and I very much doubt Peter Jackson was intentionally inserting biblical prophecy references. I think you're trying to hard to read something into the books and movies that isn't there, much like people who persisted in reading a homosexual relationship between Frodo and Samwise into the books back in the 70s and 80s (and maybe earlier). You DO know abomination, legion, apocalypse, and desolation are common English words, right? They are frequently used because they stir the emotions.
It's fine if you want to draw personal inspiration from the films but claiming these are biblical references is really stretching things.
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DainPig
Gondor
Jun 26 2016, 10:25pm
Post #3 of 15
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Thorin had his 12 dwarves.
Wow.
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Jun 26 2016, 10:57pm
Post #4 of 15
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I think the "We are Legion" line was likely a Biblical reference, since that's a direct quote from demons in the New Testament. I don't think the rest of these references have any particular meaning, though.
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Starling
Half-elven
Jun 27 2016, 6:23am
Post #5 of 15
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But that doesn't make it a Biblical reference in the film. It is a term that is often used in popular culture, in various ways.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 27 2016, 9:26am
Post #6 of 15
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I think perhaps you're forgetting....
[In reply to]
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That a large strand of world culture derives from Christianity and so makes widespread reference to biblical/religious phrases and ideas without having any religious intent at all. Take one simple example: how many people booking their week off in the sun (or wherever they choose to spend it) have holiness in mind? But the origin of the word 'holiday' is 'holy day'.
Tolkien was Catholic but detested allegory. As for the film script, I'm sure Peter Jackson wasn't trying to send subliminal messages.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Noria
Gondor
Jun 27 2016, 12:31pm
Post #7 of 15
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I agree that the biblical references in the movies are cultural rather than symbolic.
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I knew a couple who were not religious and didn’t go to church but feared that their children were going to grow up missing an understanding of the important part of Western culture that derives from Christianity, so they tried to find some sort of acceptable (to them) church to attend. They were right because a huge number of references in the English language derive from the Bible and the religion underpins the entirety of Western society, even today, even for non-believers.
Also, the number of expressions and references in English that came from Shakespeare is astounding.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 27 2016, 12:40pm
Post #8 of 15
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Americans go on ‘vacation’ and Brits go on ‘holiday’ (Right?). . . . Any significance? Naw.
'Still it might be well for all if all these strengths were joined, and the powers of each were used in league.'
-Glóin
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 27 2016, 12:46pm
Post #9 of 15
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But 'tis true. We go on 'holiday'. Our schools have school 'holidays' in between terms. But our universities have vacations.....
Funny old thing, language!
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Starling
Half-elven
Jun 27 2016, 6:18pm
Post #10 of 15
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It makes me think about studying (western) art history - you can't learn about it without developing some understanding of religious and biblical history as well.
And I was thinking about Shakespeare too. All of those words and phrases in common usage - but we don't normally say, 'oh, that's a deliberate Shakespeare reference', when these things pop up all over the place.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 29 2016, 6:51pm
Post #11 of 15
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Yeah, I'm a Christian, and when I was younger I read up on Revelation, got all strung out on references to Bears, Eagles and Dragons - which of course are symbols of Russia, China and the USA. Freaked me out quite a bit back then, but these days, not so much. I'm honestly not familiar enough with Tolkien's LoTR to know if Azog, or anyone else, ever uttered the "we are legion" line. My guess is, as a Catholic Tolkien might have referenced the Bible on a subconscious level, but Peter Jackson? No idea. Oh, btw, that scene between Bard & Smaug, yeah it is a powerful image but I wouldn't think Jesus & Satan so much as David and Goliath. Now, there's a Biblical story that has taken on a secular interpretation!
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 29 2016, 6:53pm
Post #12 of 15
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Yeah, but didn't you and I talk about that once?
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How I thought the number 13 was unlucky (now where did THAT come from?), and wondered if that was Tolkien's intent? And you replied that Tolkien based the number on a trip with a group of people to Switzerland, or something like that?
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Gianna
Rohan
Jun 30 2016, 6:00pm
Post #13 of 15
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Christian elements in the books/movies isn't the same thing as allegory, cf Narnia where the salvation story plays out in the same way as Christian salvation history. I too doubt Jackson tried to put any Biblical/Christian references in his films (although LOTR had quite a bit due to the saturation of the book with Christian themes), but it's undeniable that, like I said, book LOTR is saturated with Catholicism.
~There's some good left in this world. And it's worth fighting for.~
------
My website...
...my fantasy novel Seascape...
...and my fantasy novel Starscape.
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TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan
Jun 30 2016, 9:22pm
Post #14 of 15
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These films and by extension the novels are not works of true allegory as they (thankfully!) avoid the 1:1 metaphorical connotations that allegory is all about, but however intentional or not (from Tolkien down to Jackson), whether many like it or not and whether many or aware or not, these tales and indeed these films have Christ flowing through their veins. Sacrificial love bringing about saving grace, the inability of mortals to handle the temptations that come from wearing true evil around their necks all day long, etc.
They are better Christian films than those film companies that specify in making Christian films can produce. The only difference is that no one uninitiated can quite get the Gospel message from just watching LotR or Hobbit. 
But alas, that subtext is divine right there, all the same.
"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War
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