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KingTurgon
Rohan
Jun 20 2016, 3:46pm
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Saruman and Elrond
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So on my latest rewatch of BOFA, I noticed than Saruman seemed to genuinely care for his allies Elrond and Galadriel at Dol Guldur (and Gandalf of course seeing as how he risked mortal danger to save him). Lee's tender facial expressions of concern for Galadriel were small, but very moving - I could see that this is a Saruman who would be genuinely upset and ticked off if anything bad happened to his friends.
I also liked the reverence with which Elrond talked to Saruman - great subtle acting from Hugo Weaving that is very in keeping with the books since as we know Saruman was the leader of all the good forces at this time.
I just thought these were cool touches by Lee and Weaving and deserved to be pointed out - as Lee said, there are no small parts, only small actors!
(This post was edited by KingTurgon on Jun 20 2016, 3:46pm)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 20 2016, 10:08pm
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Saruman seems more haughty in AUJ, so I assume he's realizing his error in Dol Goldur. Also, I assume he hasn't been corrupted by the Palantier thing yet, but he still clings stubbornly to his belief that the "ring of power" is lost, and therefore none of this is much to worry about.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 20 2016, 10:47pm
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Saruman seems more haughty in AUJ, so I assume he's realizing his error in Dol Goldur. Also, I assume he hasn't been corrupted by the Palantier thing yet, but he still clings stubbornly to his belief that the "ring of power" is lost, and therefore none of this is much to worry about.
Even in Tolkien's legendarium, Saruman doesn't attempt to use the Orthanc-stone until around the year TA 3000; that is when he unknowingly falls completely under Sauron's domination. However, the realization that the Dark Lord continues to be a powerful threat seems to put the White Wizard into a downward spiral of despair and desperation. Within the continuity of the films, it might be when Mount Doom again bursts into flames and Sauron openly declares himself in Mordor about ten years after the Battle of Five Armies that first sends Sauron over the edge.
In the book-canon, Saruman's fall was a slow one that began as early as the White Council of 2851 when he overruled Gandalf's counsel to attack Dol Guldur. in 2953 Saruman was seeking the One Ring for himself when he lied to the Council that the Ring had been washed down the Anduin into the Sea. At about that time he gained full control of Isengard and started fortifying it. Soon after that he began to secretly support attacks against Rohan and Fangorn from Orcs and the Dunlendings.
At first, when Saruman began seeking for the Ring, he probably just felt that he was the only one with the wisdom and knowledge to be trusted with it. Sometime between 2941 (2940 in the films) and 2951 he had slipped into evil, thinking that the only way to survive Sauron's rule was to ally with him or overcome him with the power of the Master Ring.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Jun 22 2016, 4:58am
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Saruman knew he was the chief of the Istari and powerful in his own right, hence the haughtiness in AUJ. He had not yet fallen into Sauron's snare yet at the battle of Dol Guldur so it makes sense that he cares for his allies despite his ego. I was always under the impression that Saruman fell into Sauron's trap due to a combination of his ego and despair at the visions he was being shown through the Palantir, not due to any inherent evil in his nature.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 22 2016, 1:59pm
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Saruman knew he was the chief of the Istari and powerful in his own right, hence the haughtiness in AUJ. He had not yet fallen into Sauron's snare yet at the battle of Dol Guldur so it makes sense that he cares for his allies despite his ego. I was always under the impression that Saruman fell into Sauron's trap due to a combination of his ego and despair at the visions he was being shown through the Palantir, not due to any inherent evil in his nature.
I think that you're right. I also think that Saruman unquestionably succumbed to evil by 2953 (which is the date I should have used above) when the last meeting of the White Council took place and he started fortifying Isengard.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 22 2016, 9:10pm
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Another take on Saruman's fall
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I received Horse-lords of Rohan in the mail today for The One Ring Roleplaying Game. And while it is principally concerned with how to incorporate the Men of Rohan and the Dunlendings into the game, it also details a timeline for Saruman's activiites from the time that he takes complete control of Isengard:
• Year 2953. Thengel crowned King of the Mark. Saruman becomes the sole Lord of Isengard. He mans the gates with guards and stops welcoming strangers. Works of fortification and renovation mainly concerning the ring-wall are commenced.
• Year 2960. A plan of extensive excavations under the inner courtyard starts. Saruman says he has found iron deposits under Orthanc.
• Year 2965. By this time the secret forges of Isengard are in full activity.
• Year 2980. Théoden succeeds Thengel as King of Rohan. Saruman sends gifts and spies to assess the weaknesses and strengths of the new Lord of the Mark.
• Year 2990. Saruman starts manipulating bands of great Uruks into harassing the Westemnet of Rohan. In the following decades he secretly employs and supports more and more Orcs.
• Years 2990-3000. The White Wizard first considers, then initiates experimenting, with the ‘special breeding’ of Orcs in the deepest pits under Isengard.
• Year 3000. Saruman dares to gaze upon Barad-dûr using the palantír of Orthanc. The Eye of Sauron traps him and holds him. The corruption of Isengard accelerates, Saruman starts planning the ruin of Rohan and sends more Orcs and labourers to Fangorn to cut trees and feed his furnaces.
I'm wondering if perhaps this timeline also works for Jackson's Middle-earth films.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 22 2016, 9:12pm)
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