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DainPig
Gondor
Jun 17 2016, 10:59pm
Post #1 of 33
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In human years, I'd say Ori is still an adolescent. But Dori looks a bit old, white beard and all.
It is just a thought I have. When I watched the movie for the first time they were father and son.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 17 2016, 11:33pm
Post #2 of 33
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Why leave out one of the brothers? So...ages. I'm going to abandon the conceit that Ori is the youngest of the company and just say that he is one of the three youngest (along with Fili and Kili). If Ori is not the youngest, he is certainly the most inexperienced. The other conceit from the films (or at least from the film actors) is that the three brothers all have different fathers, something that would be very unusual in Dwarvish society. I'm going to say that they were born roughly fifteen years apart:
Dori - born 2828
Nori - born 2843
Ori - born 2858 (died between 2971 and 2994, depending on when Balin attempted to recolonize Moria in the context of the film series)
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
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LSF
Gondor
Jun 17 2016, 11:39pm
Post #3 of 33
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Ori is the youngest of the Company, stated by PJ himself in the Appendices. Then there's the actors who have said it, too. Can't get any more confirmed than that 
As for age difference, if the average dwarf lifespan is 250, then I would say that a female dwarf could bear children for at least 100 years. So it's possible to have a huge age difference between siblings.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 18 2016, 12:15am
Post #4 of 33
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Wasn't there about 14 years age difference between Thorin and Dis?
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 18 2016, 1:53am
Post #5 of 33
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There is a loophole for Ori's age...
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Ori is the youngest of the Company, stated by PJ himself in the Appendices. Then there's the actors who have said it, too. Can't get any more confirmed than that As for age difference, if the average dwarf lifespan is 250, then I would say that a female dwarf could bear children for at least 100 years. So it's possible to have a huge age difference between siblings.
Ori/s status as the youngest Dwarf in the company in the films is put into some doubt in Jude Fisher's The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug Visual Companion (possibly in deference to book-purists):
Dori and Nori are united in their concern for their little brother Ori, who is said to be the youngest member of the Company. It is possible that Fili and Kili are in fact younger than Ori; but their weapons training, cheeky confidence and general demeanour makes them seem older.
We know that Dwarves have an average lifespan of around 250 years and can sometimes live to be over 400. However, we know very little about dwarven reproduction cycles or fertility. Tolkien tells us that only one out of three Dwarves are born female; and from the Line of Durin we can see that siblings tend to be born between five and ten years apart.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 18 2016, 1:59am
Post #6 of 33
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Thorin and his siblings (by the book)
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Wasn't there about 14 years age difference between Thorin and Dis?
Thorin: born in 2746.
Frerin: born in 2751.
Dís: born in 2760.
These birth-years probably can't be applied to PJ's film series, where I estimated the following progression:
2776 - Birth of Thorin.
2781 - Frerin is born.
2790 - Dís is born.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
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LSF
Gondor
Jun 18 2016, 2:05am
Post #7 of 33
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"Ori/s status as the youngest Dwarf in the company in the films is put into some doubt in Jude Fisher's The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug Visual Companion (possibly in deference to book-purists):"
I'm going to take the word of the director and actors (and I remember reading that from a person on the design team, too) as film-canon over vague possibility from the person writing the visual guide. I don't think you can get any more "factual" than from those two parties.
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Jun 18 2016, 2:33am
Post #8 of 33
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The films don't confirm either way
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The only in-film indication that Ori is younger than Fili and Kili is the Goblin King's remark, and he's hardly a credible source. PJ may have intended for Ori to be the youngest, but his film doesn't explicitly state such the same way the book did re: Kili (and Fili, weirdly).
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Jun 18 2016, 2:37am
Post #9 of 33
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Putting Dori's birth in 2828 would make him 112 in the film, and based on what we know of Dwarf aging he certainly looks older than that. Dwalin and Gloin, for instance, were both born decades earlier than that, and they look much younger than Dori.
On a side note, I've always thought it was odd that PJ chose to make Dori one of the oldest-looking Dwarves in the Company when he is stated to be the strongest member of the Company in the book (as well as film-related supplements).
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 18 2016, 3:07am
Post #10 of 33
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I'm going to take the word of the director and actors (and I remember reading that from a person on the design team, too) as film-canon over vague possibility from the person writing the visual guide. I don't think you can get any more "factual" than from those two parties.
You have every right to do that. However, I'm not obligated to drink Peter Jackson's Kool-Aid, especially for something that is never stated out-right in the films other than the assumption made by the Great Goblin.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 18 2016, 3:13am
Post #11 of 33
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Putting Dori's birth in 2828 would make him 112 in the film, and based on what we know of Dwarf aging he certainly looks older than that. Dwalin and Gloin, for instance, were both born decades earlier than that, and they look much younger than Dori.
On a side note, I've always thought it was odd that PJ chose to make Dori one of the oldest-looking Dwarves in the Company when he is stated to be the strongest member of the Company in the book (as well as film-related supplements).
Dwalin and Glóin are also relatively closely related to Thorin and that might reflect how youthful they look for their age. I was tempted to make the average age difference between the brothers more like twenty years or more apart, particularly between Dori and Nori. Fifteen years apart seemed like a bare minimum to me. I wouldn't put one hundred years between Dori and Ori, but maybe something more like fifty years, placing Dori's birth somewhere around 2800 to 2810.
If we accept the backstory for the three according to the actors then their mother was probably twice widowed and re-married--something that seems to be exceeding rare among Dwarves. In fact, I don't think that we can point to a single example from Tolkien's writings.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 18 2016, 3:19am)
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LSF
Gondor
Jun 18 2016, 3:19am
Post #12 of 33
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How is that "drinking the koolaid"? There are a lot of character details in fiction that don't make it into the proper story, and are stated out-of-story by the creator. (Wouldn't Tolkien's own appendices count as that?) Is it drinking the koolaid if I take into account JK Rowling's post-book-stated character details when I read the books again? Or am I really supposed to take the non-creator written visual guide or other supplemental sources over the creator's? Doesn't make sense to me.
If the discussion or question has to do with the facts, I'm going to use the information stated by the creator over anyone else.
(This post was edited by LSF on Jun 18 2016, 3:23am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 18 2016, 3:25am
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There is no reason to take offense. I'm just saying that Ori's age is a detail that is not a solid fact that is established in the films, any more than Legolas' given year-of-birth as TA 87 according to promotional materials relating to the LotR films. What Peter Jackson says off-screen he is free to alter or completely disregard.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 18 2016, 3:29am)
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LSF
Gondor
Jun 18 2016, 3:41am
Post #14 of 33
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I would say, the way they edited the goblin king scene made it clear to me. Why else would they show Ori as reacting in fear to the threat instead of Fili or Kili? We don't see exactly which one Goblin King is pointing at, just that he points in their direction. There would be no point in showing Ori if it wasn't meant to be him. And why can't GK know which one was the youngest? Or maybe he guessed correctly?
And I wouldn't say PJ just said it off-screen. The idea of Ori being the youngest drove everything about the character, with designing, writing, and acting. Yeah, I guess he could come out and say that's no longer true. But completely dismissing it because no one explicitly gave everyone's birthdates or comparative ages within the film, or that he might decide to say otherwise later doesn't make sense.
Also, "Drinking the koolaid" is considered an insult, so maybe be more careful about that phrase if you're not meaning to offend 
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 18 2016, 6:56am
Post #15 of 33
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I did not completely dismiss the premise of Ori as the youngest Dwarf in the company. I pointed out a loophole that challenges that notion for those who wish to make use of it. There are at least three: Fisher's book; the fact that it is only implied on-screen and not explicitly stated; and the fact provided by Tolkien that Fili and Kili were the youngest Dwarves in the book.
As for 'drinking the Kook-Aid', it just means accepting everything coming from a particular source as true. And I accused no one of doing so. It can certainly have negative connotations (especially considering the source for the expression), but it is not an insult unless you choose to make it one.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 18 2016, 7:00am)
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LSF
Gondor
Jun 18 2016, 7:56am
Post #16 of 33
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Of course I'm going to accept whatever a creator says about things they make as true (unless it completely contradicts what they stated before), whether its explicitly stated in-story or not. If I don't, then what is the point of me engaging in the work? You seem to place a lot of stock in whatever Tolkien said about things, in the Appendices and other supplemental material he wrote, so does that make you as drinking the Tolkien koolaid?
Other than a character saying something like "We must protect Ori, since he's the youngest!" or something, I think its pretty explicit when a villain directly threatens "the youngest" and they only show one person's fearful reaction to that threat. That's a good way to communicate that without having a potentially forced or awkward spoken line about it. If they wanted to keep who was the youngest vague, they would've shown Ori, Fili, and Kili.
I think using Fisher's visual guide as a source when you have the information from PJ and Adam Brown would be like saying "Well I know Tolkien stated this fact, but this other person who had no involvement in writing the book said this about that topic." If you didn't know what PJ had said, that's fine. But otherwise its a rather weak argument.
I keep book-canon and film-canon separate, because they are obviously separate. I accept Fili or Kili as being youngest in the book if that is how its presented there, just like I accept that book-Thorin is the oldest of the company, or that Bard found out about Smaug's weak spot from a bird. But that's not how it is in the movies. I think the word you're looking for is "headcanon" here, which is the individual fan's interpretation of the material that may come from subtext or completely contradict the canon. I don't have a problem with headcanons, but if a discussion or question is about the facts, I'm going to use the best source of true information, which comes from the creator, just as you provide whatever facts you can from Tolkien's supplemental writings about various topics that come up here.
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LSF
Gondor
Jun 18 2016, 8:49am
Post #17 of 33
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Not as bad as, the first time my dad watched these movies, he thought Sigrid was Bard's wife. I guess he didn't hear her saying "Da!" 
I don't think I thought Dori was Ori's father, I didn't get that kind of vibe from them.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 18 2016, 11:31am
Post #18 of 33
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I'm not sure what point you're making here....
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When you're watching the film, if it makes sense to you to view them as father and son then why not do that? I can't see that it would interfere with the rest of the story and I don't think their relationship is ever specified on screen. It's just clear that Dori is protective of Ori.
On screen - that's the key. Films are supposed to tell their story to anyone even - if it's an adaptation - those who haven't read the book, so anyone should be able to follow the story from the screen alone and make sense of it in his or her own way. So....
If you want to stick to Tolkien's writing then I think Ori, Dori and Nori are actually cousins, not brothers - although he doesn't say this in 'The Hobbit' itself, so you can stick to the book and not view them as cousins.
Or you can take it from the literature and comment surrounding the film that they're brothers. In which case, as they're dwarves and not human the apparent age gap might have all sorts of explanations. Dwarvish lifespan is quite different. Maybe Dori aged more quickly, like some humans do. Maybe he had a terrible fright and it turned his hair white - he does seem a bit nervous.
The film tells us they're related, Ori has less experience and Dori fusses over him. Anything else you want to think about them as characters in the film can be what you want to make it.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Jun 18 2016, 4:00pm
Post #19 of 33
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It's not specified in canon how they are related (if at all), but given the other brother groupings, it's been the most prevalent interpretation. For all we know, Dori could in fact be Ori's father in canon.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 18 2016, 6:29pm
Post #20 of 33
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The relationship isn't specified in The Hobbit, I know...
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...but I had a feeling Tolkien said it somewhere else. Maybe I made it up.... 
ETA It's in the Addendum of The History of the Hobbit (the later edition). Tolkien's notes. I don't think this idea of 'canon' is particularly helpful myself, especially with Tolkien who was still creating the work until he died and changed his mind about various things. It's not in the book, it is something Tolkien said. Pays your money, takes your choice....
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
(This post was edited by dormouse on Jun 18 2016, 6:33pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 18 2016, 6:50pm
Post #21 of 33
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Authorial Intent vs. Interpretation
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When things are left unsaid then it is perfectly acceptable to have more than one interpretation regardless of authorial intent. Whatever Peter Jackson (or even J.R.R. Tolkien) has stated outside of the actual work, we can have more than one answer to questions posed within the movie, book, etc. That is why we can speculate about whether Ori is younger than Fili or Kili, or whether Celeborn is a Sindarin Elf who Galadriel first met in Middle-earth or if he is a Teleri also named Teleporno who came over to Middle-earth with Galadriel. Note than Tolkien himself is inconsistent over who is older: Fili or Kili. However, we can take the birth-order given in LotR as his final word.
Yes, I will drink the Tolkien Kool-Aid in the sense that, when confronted with a mystery within the films, I will look to Tolkien first for an answer if PJ hasn't provided an adequate one.
There are also things within the films that I utterly reject out-of-hand as absolute nonsense that are only used for effect. Example: Was there a full moon when Smaug attacked Lake-town? That is what we see, but it is also patently impossible. The moon was a waxing crescent on Durin's Day and--within the films--no more than a few hours have passed since Bilbo entered the Mountain. Even if a full day had passed (as in the book), the moon would still be in a crescent phase. So the full moon is nothing more than a conceit made for dramatic effect.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 18 2016, 7:03pm
Post #22 of 33
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The relationship isn't specified in The Hobbit, I know... ...but I had a feeling Tolkien said it somewhere else. Maybe I made it up.... ETA It's in the Addendum of The History of the Hobbit (the later edition). Tolkien's notes. I don't think this idea of 'canon' is particularly helpful myself, especially with Tolkien who was still creating the work until he died and changed his mind about various things. It's not in the book, it is something Tolkien said. Pays your money, takes your choice....
Thanks for the confirmation from The History of The Hobbit. Dori, Nori and Ori get a mention in the LotR Appendices as a footnote in Tolkien's chart for the Line of Durin, but only to say that they were also in the House of Durin, but more distantly-related kinsmen. And, of course, we find out before the Council of Elrond that Ori was part of Balin's doomed expedition to Moria.
On a related note, we do know that Bofur and Bombur are brothers with Bifur being their cousin.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 19 2016, 12:14am
Post #23 of 33
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I've watched all of them and I can't recall any mention of Ori being the youngest. But I do recall Richard Armitage in the Appendices saying that Fili and Kili are the youngest and fittest fighters.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 19 2016, 12:16am
Post #24 of 33
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Dean O'Gorman wasn't present in the filming of that scene (not sure why), so they had a stand-in Fili who was literally standing in the background. As for Ori's reaction, I always assumed the Goblin King was pointing at Ori. I may have to go back and re-watch that now.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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LSF
Gondor
Jun 19 2016, 12:32am
Post #25 of 33
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the "Company of Thorin" or "Designing the Dwarves" section on AUJ, When they're talking about the dwarf designs, and PJ is holding up each design to the actors. When he shows Ori's, he says something like "As the youngest of the group..."
I don't think anyone would consider Ori a fighter, and definitely not a "fit" fighter, especially in AUJ, so I took Richard's comment to mean that of the fighters, Fili and Kili are the youngest.
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