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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Lotr read through the black gate opens final part

Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jun 12 2016, 11:14pm

Post #1 of 22 (2142 views)
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Lotr read through the black gate opens final part Can't Post

Good news! For you lot anyway. I was going to write a very long post about how this chapter reflects the politics of the modern world in my opinion, but now I won't and will just summerize what my thoughts are. Basically that of all the chapters of Lotr, I sometimes think that I relate most to this one at least in terms of politics. From a somewhat lefty, liberal point of view, I often feel the sense of despair that I read in these pages. It doesn't seem to matter who is in charge, the right always wins. I often wonder why this is so and why these years are mine! Victories for the left are always incomplete and usually torpedoed by a right comeback in double quick time. Never seems to happen the other way around, however! But even leaving that to one side, the news always seems to be more depressing than looking into Sauron's mind in the Palantir. I don't know if anyone else has noticed this. I have even noticed a tone of voice that newsreaders use when dispensing depressing stats over the radio. But sometimes even against all evidence I can convince myself things in the World are not all bad and so look to sport instead. Well, I tend to support my country England for want of anyone else to support. And I can honestly say that in the sports I like we have been given pretty much the same treatment as Sauron gives out in this chapter! Anyway, apologies for,this rather depressing post and a melocany ending to this books read through, though some might say it is appropriate and I will hope to see you in the next one.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 13 2016, 4:53am

Post #2 of 22 (2093 views)
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"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice." [In reply to] Can't Post

So said Martin Luther King, Jr., adapting the words of the 19th century Unitarian minister and abolitionist Theodore Parker. A phrase fondly quoted in more recent times by the man who is currently the most powerful person in the world--and a political liberal. So cheer up! While this chapter ends darkly, it turns out that the apparent good news Pippin dismisses as misleading is actually the truth.

On the other hand, the story's author was politically conservative, or even reactionary, and he thought that history was essentially a "long defeat". And there are surely conservatives reading this forum who despair that the left keeps winning.

And just to mix things up even more, here's a relatively recent folk-rock song (n.b. a.s.!) that quotes my subject line. "I still believe that there is hope, if love is where our trust is."

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(This post was edited by N.E. Brigand on Jun 13 2016, 4:54am)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 13 2016, 6:25am

Post #3 of 22 (2084 views)
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The Problem of Pain. [In reply to] Can't Post

Belatedly it occurs to me that, in light of the horrible news of Sunday morning. any expressions of hope at this time might seem insensitive, for which I apologize.

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noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 13 2016, 9:27am

Post #4 of 22 (2072 views)
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'Why can "we" never win?' - where a Tolkien-based discussion might go [In reply to] Can't Post

Where I hope this discussion does not go is to presume who "we" are too finely. "We" - the contributors to and readers of this forum - are doubtless people with opinions from all over the spectrum of views found in democratic debate. Trying to identify who (Democrats/Republicans/Remain/Leave/Conservatives/Liberals... ) are to be considered the orcs has a high risk of plunging into the political rancour that is all over the news and the Internet at present, and is out of scope for a forum dedicated to the writings of Tolkien.

[For anyone coming to this thread some time hence - it's June 2016 as I write. We are in the run up to the UK Referendum one whether to Remain in/Leave the EU; there is a US Presidential election in November, and an Australian Federal election in July. My understanding is that all three contests are involving a lot of heat . Separately, there has just been a mass murder in a Florida nightclub.]

Given these world events, should we continue our discussion of events and themes from a made-up universe? I think so - this is a specialised website. There are many others in which we can each separately tackle politics, or the aftermath of an atrocity. But I don't mean this as a slap-down - I see every reason to discuss some of Tolkien's larger themes - hope, despair, and how and whether to struggle for what you believe to be right.

So - Back in Middle-earth, The Captains of the West set off warned by Gandalf that they could not hope to have a final victory - only use of the Ring could achieve that, and such a victory would be no victory as it would merely replace Sauron with one another Sauron-like figure. At best the Captains hope to achieve a large improvement, but in time they will find their views and way of life opposed by something Sauron-like once again. But it is clear that they are not to despair and must continue to do their bit - the Eagles might turn up (but you personally might be suffocating under a dead troll at the time).

If Tolkien means anything by this beyond the world of his story, I would first suspect that he is thinking about abstract good and evil and perhaps thinking of theology - a final cure for the world's ills is beyond mortals. But if one wanted to draw comfort from Tolkien's works in politically tempestuous times, it is possible to find Tolkien's theme applicable. A democracy is intentionally in a permanent state of disagreement. The very intention is to allow peaceful expression of different points of view. The only way to silence points of view with which you yourself disagree is to step outside democracy, and by doing so to betray your victory.

Tolkien too lived in times of woe. The First World War killed all but one of his close friends and shattered their joint dream of becoming some sort of artistic movement that would shape the world to the good. The inter-war period saw a lot of pessimism over whether democracy had foundered and the choice was now only between the fascist or communist forms of authoritarianism ('The West has failed' perhaps.) Then, of course the murderous ideology of Nazism arose, appropriating Tolkien's beloved Norse and Germanic traditions for it's own hateful and perverted purposes. How these events affected the development of Middle-earth is of course a matter of controversy among Tolkien scholars or more general fans such as me. But however it came about, we end up with a work that refuses to offer any simple or permanent solutions, but nor will it give up hope.

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


a.s.
Valinor


Jun 13 2016, 10:37am

Post #5 of 22 (2077 views)
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We MUST have hope, we cannot despair [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien himself did NOT mean that evil would prevail, in the end. For Tolkien, and for those who believe as he did, and for many of us even without his specific beliefs, God will always triumph; at the end of time, we will understand his plan.

Until then, we live in darkness, with a mission to shine some light within.

If our lives are spent deciding what to do with the time that is given us, and we fight, in small and large ways, the evil coming from all the Mordors of the day, then we are not in despair. And while there will always be more Mordors, there will always ALWAYS be more Aragorns and Frodos, as well.

a.s. (lovely Gorka song in the post above, by the way. Thanks for that. Heart )

"an seileachan"


"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.



noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 13 2016, 10:40am

Post #6 of 22 (2068 views)
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Though perhaps we need hope most... [In reply to] Can't Post

Though perhaps we need hope most in response to scenes of madness and hatred?

To try and comfort the bereaved, injured or traumatised with 'the arc of the moral universe' would be crass of course, but I did not for a moment think that was your intention.

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Meneldor
Valinor


Jun 13 2016, 1:03pm

Post #7 of 22 (2058 views)
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Fight on, and do not despair! [In reply to] Can't Post

But if you do, well then, fight on in despair.

(I don't know who came up with that, but I bet JRRT would agree with it.)


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 13 2016, 2:47pm

Post #8 of 22 (2054 views)
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A plan that just looks like a chaotic mess [In reply to] Can't Post

That's another Tolkien theme that we should pick out of this chapter of course.

For readers who have read the Silmarillion, it's explicit that Tolkien built his fantasy world as one with a benevolent creator. But Eru's a creator who allowed a flawed creation to stand, and, instead of starting over again, invented the Children of Illuvatar so that they could labour to perfect it. But Eru's plan is so long-term and subtle that even the Valar spend a lot of their time appalled by events but unsure what to do for the best.

Whether real life also has a benevolent creator with a plan is of course something we are unlikely to agree upon here. (I assume contributors and readers come from many faiths and philosophies, including atheism.) As a Catholic, presumably Tolkien thought that it did, but he was careful not to make his own religious views explicit in his story. Certainly Middle-earth looks familiar in that it can appear to be a chaotic mess in which all kinds of bad things can and do happen.

Just as in real life story's characters have to decide what to do based on incomplete and/or misleading information, and just hope for the best. Tolkien's decision to tell the story in threads adds to this - sometimes we know more than the characters do. But sometimes - as at this point in the story - our extra knowledge is of no comfort.

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 13 2016, 10:22pm

Post #9 of 22 (2027 views)
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This chapter did seem to end in much despair to me on 1st read. [In reply to] Can't Post

I figured not everyone would survive, and Boromir had died after all, with Frodo having near misses and Gandalf dying and coming back (which is kind of cheating). So I thought Pippin was dead for sure, because this was a more grown-up story than The Hobbit, and it seemed the deliberate comparison to Bilbo's tale (where likeable characters such as Thorin, Fili, and Kili all died) was to show that Pippin would die where Bilbo had survived. I thought him hearing "The Eagles are coming!" was a near-death hallucination, and certainly no author would use the same miracle-rescue device twice, after all. (Or 3 times, since he used it twice in The Hobbit.)

I had no idea how the rest would fare, but it seemed to me that Frodo & Sam were still alive, or the Mouth of Sauron would have brought them along in chains, or maybe brought a freshly cut-off ear or something awful you'd to do a hostage (I read LOTR soon after the John Paul Getty kidnapping occurred, and his ear was sent as proof of life).

On the other hand, the rational part of me said there was still a big chunk of the book left to read, and it couldn't all be disaster and the Reign of Sauron, and it seemed that Frodo & Sam would complete their quest somehow, and Gandalf and Aragorn would survive somehow even if others like Eomer didn't. So back then, as it appears today, the story was about hope amid painful circumstances. The hope doesn't lessen the pain at all nor illuminate the darkness (I say that of present-day atrocities as well as LOTR), but it gives you something else to focus on, and you see the world as both full of hope and full of pain, and not a choice of just one or the other. I don't know whoever thought up 1-dimensional dichotomies anyway, but they never seemed to fit the real world.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 15 2016, 5:25pm

Post #10 of 22 (1965 views)
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A second "Breaking of the Fellowship"? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I figured not everyone would survive, and Boromir had died after all


Good point. Another comparison that comes to mind is the end of the first book, with Frodo falling into darkness. Interesting that there the villains came at him across a stream and here they came at Pippin across a swamp.

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CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 15 2016, 7:38pm

Post #11 of 22 (1952 views)
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Nice comparison, NEB! [In reply to] Can't Post

Water plays an instrumental part in Tolkien scenes as much as he can get muster. Sometimes I wonder why the whole ME world wasn't set underwater. Smile

And now you reminded me (hazily) of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, when the Men of Dor-Lomin made their last stand at the Fens of Serech. Didn't the orcs have to bridge the swamp with their dead bodies to get across the water come at Huor and Hurin?

Has anyone ever made a list of significant Tolkien events that happened by water? Turin killed Glaurung by a river, Boromir died by a river, Frodo was saved at Rivendell by a river, Frodo & Friends encountered Bombadil after Old Man Willow nearly killed them by a river, Frodo escapes the Black Riders by crossing the Brandywine--those are just easy ones that come to mind. You bring up the point that even here in the desert of Sauron, amid the earth-vomit piled high by his maggot-folk, there are foul pools of water that stand in the way.

It's almost easier to think of significant events that DON'T involve water: there was none in the Chamber of Mazarbul or the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, nor in the Pyre of Denethor, nor on Mt Doom.


Meneldor
Valinor


Jun 15 2016, 8:00pm

Post #12 of 22 (1947 views)
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Don't forget Aragorn's arrival at the Pelennor [In reply to] Can't Post

coming up the river with a fleet full of allies.

On a darker note, the first kinslaying was a fight over the ships in Alqualonde.

To lighten things again, Earendil saved the world by sailing the ocean.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 15 2016, 8:34pm

Post #13 of 22 (1949 views)
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"By holding other variables constant, the author lets something emerge concerning the variable which has been left 'free'." [In reply to] Can't Post

One of my all-time favorite TORN posts, from one of my favorite discussions here (which preceded my arrival on the forums by a little more than a year), is NZ Strider's "No extreme is too absurd in literary analysis!" from October 2002, part of which reads:


Quote
Now look at the crossings of the rivers at the ends of Books I and II. The first time Frodo is dragged over (against his will, at someone else's decision, by another's efforts). The second time Frodo consciously chooses to cross the River. He takes his decision alone, and he crosses under his own power as well. A number of parallel scenes have let us see Frodo growing incrementally. Up to this point Frodo has always had an older male advising and guiding him, slowly bringing him to the point at which he will be able to strike out on his own: Bilbo, Gandalf, Maggot, Bombadil, Strider, Elrond, Gandalf again, Strider again, and Gandalf one last time (briefly and telepathically at Amon Hen).

When he makes the decision to cross the River at the end of Book II, he is also stepping free of the guidance and advice of older males. The next few chapters will indicate how much he has grown by setting him in parallel to Aragorn and letting us see how he manages in similar situations to those into which Aragorn is thrust.


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a.s.
Valinor


Jun 15 2016, 9:52pm

Post #14 of 22 (1940 views)
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link? :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

I could make my way through the links in the link in your footer. But I would get cranky.

Evil

But if you have a link to the discussion you cited, could you send it?

Thanks in advance.

a.s.

"an seileachan"


"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.



squire
Half-elven


Jun 15 2016, 10:12pm

Post #15 of 22 (1951 views)
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Link here - part of a larger side discussion during an earlier LotR discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

This is the post NEB latched on to:
No extreme is too absurd in literary analysis!

The full discussion can be tracked by looking at the thread below the post. It gets a little anal*, in the tradition of the RR in those days!

*ytical



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 15 2016, 10:13pm

Post #16 of 22 (1944 views)
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For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood. [In reply to] Can't Post

Comparing Books I and II, in which Curious advances upon the work of Randel Helms (in Tolkien's World (1974)) and Tom Shippey (in The Road to Middle-earth (1982)) without having read either of them.

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Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
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a.s.
Valinor


Jun 15 2016, 11:04pm

Post #17 of 22 (1947 views)
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Thank you, gentlemen. [In reply to] Can't Post

That was slightly before my time, although when I first got here, the RR was still full of anal* types, fondly remembered (where IS Curious, by the way?)

Might need some analgesics to get through the anal-ysizing.

Angelic

a.s.
_______________________

*ytic

"an seileachan"


"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.



squire
Half-elven


Jun 16 2016, 12:14am

Post #18 of 22 (1937 views)
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He sought the Havens long ago, or so they tell the tale [In reply to] Can't Post

I miss Curious, too. He last posted at the beginning of 2013.

I think, in the end, he burned out of things to say about his favorite book - hard to believe, I know. But in 2010 he, evidently frustrated with the lack of an organized discussion of LotR in the RR, posted his own chapter discussions for all (ALL) of Book I - from May to September. That's the sign of a Silmaril-like comet that is consuming itself. I think that may have been the beginning of the end.

Of course, your reappearance gives us all reason to hope we'll see him again some day!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


enanito
Rohan

Jun 16 2016, 5:28pm

Post #19 of 22 (1905 views)
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History became legend... [In reply to] Can't Post

Makes me think of how the Reading Room parallels Tokien's world, with us born into the "Third Age" still having a couple of the originals around, but many of the ancient TORNsibs names having fallen from history to legend to myth Wink


Breezy_UVM
Registered User

Jun 19 2016, 11:03pm

Post #20 of 22 (1828 views)
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re [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that readers can look to works like this and take comfort in the worldview it presents. Tolkien's characters are all susceptible to the Ring's influence, and the degree to which it corrupts them seems to correlate directly with the scale of their desires. That is why Aragorn would be so terrifying if he were to wield the Ring, whereas Bilbo possessed it for many years with minimal influence.
The evil does not lie in ambition itself, but in the measures to which individuals will go to meet that ambition.

To me the reason that the Ring is so dangerous is that it augments the desire of the wearer while giving them the power to meet those desires, thus the Ring tips individuals inevitably toward "evil".

This conception of good and evil is almost Buddhist in its emphasis on desire as a corrupting influence on the soul. It offers more of an explanation of evil than it does a solution, but anything that places some order in this chaotic world is a comfort to me.


(This post was edited by Breezy_UVM on Jun 19 2016, 11:04pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 20 2016, 6:27am

Post #21 of 22 (1820 views)
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Welcome to the Reading Room, Breezy_UVM [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice to "see" you!

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 21 2016, 10:04pm

Post #22 of 22 (1774 views)
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Not a solution, but a path. [In reply to] Can't Post

Indeed, Tolkien does describe a major characteristic of evil (seeking power and domination), but he also offers a path for us to follow in the face of evil: do the right thing. Here the Armies of the West are prepared to give their all in the hope that they can ensure the success of Frodo's mission, which is the only hope for any kind of solution. Elsewhere, Frodo himself becomes convinced that the war is lost and his mission meaningless, but he perseveres regardless because he made a commitment and is honor bound to see it through. Neither is "rational" as we commonly understand life strategies, but this combination of "irrational" acts in pursuit of the right thing to do guarantees success.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jun 21 2016, 10:05pm)

 
 

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