|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
enanito
Rohan
Jun 2 2016, 11:54am
Post #1 of 33
(2488 views)
Shortcut
|
|
** The Last Debate ** 2) Gandalf takes his place as principle Enemy of Sauron
|
Can't Post
|
|
“Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.” OK, I have like over a hundred “most-favorite” LOTR quotes, and it seems like my current “most-favorite” is always the one I’ve read most-recently – so right now my “most-favorite” is the one quoted above  Tolkien’s phrasings have always spoken deeply to me, and I think Gandalf is often used to voice Tolkien’s own thoughts.
Upon Mount Mindolluin, Gandalf will later on describe himself to Aragorn as the Enemy of Sauron, and as I read things it is in this Last Debate that Gandalf fully takes command of the fight against Sauron. Part of Sauron’s downfall may well be that he underestimated Gandalf, seeing a greater threat in the might of Gondor, the eternal enmity of the Elves, or the knowledge and pride of Saruman. Let’s see what happens during our Last Debate!
A. Council or Debate?
We’ve already had the “Council of Elrond”. Is this chapter referred to as a debate to avoid reusing the same phrasing? To me a council implies a different aura than a debate, so would titling this chapter “The Last Council” sound less dramatic?
I actually think the Council of Elrond had more debating, and the Last Debate was more of a council. But that’s just me.
Let’s say it’s a debate -- what do you identify as the central issue the Captains are “debating”?
B. What were the previous Debates?
So this is the Last Debate, meaning there had been previous Debates, but won’t be more afterwards. Obviously it cannot mean this is the last time people meet together and disagree about something in Middle Earth, since debates will assuredly continue into the Fourth Age.
Is this the Last Debate in the War of the Ring? The Last Debate for Gandalf as the Enemy of Sauron? The Last Debate before “Evil Incarnate” is destroyed, never again to return in that form to Middle Earth? The Last of the Debates begun when the White Council was first formed?
C. Why weren’t Gimli and Legolas invited?
Simply because they didn’t have any armies to command? Elrond took it as a Portent that Gimli and Legolas had arrived at the right time for his Council, isn't the fact that they've remained faithful to the Fellowship (and to Gandalf and Aragorn) and are also in Minas Tirith right now, a sign that they should be involved in any Debate?
Plus, it’s not like Elladan and Elrohir had a huge host, although 30 of the High Elves from Rivendell is nothing to be sneezed at.
D. Does Gandalf now understand better Denethor’s point-of-view?
Gandalf here gives great props to Denethor’s understanding of the state of affairs, albeit without sharing his corresponding despair. Do you suppose Gandalf always shared this viewpoint but was previously focused on the task at hand (defending Minas Tirith from the WiKi and armies of Sauron), and thus didn’t want to agree with Denethor about the hopelessness of victory by arms?
Or now having won this battle, has his vision fully cleared and he finally sees something he didn’t want to confront?
E. Sauron’s Destiny, part I
Previously Gandalf stated that he would not fully fail in his task as steward, if although Gondor fell, something good survived to bear fruit or flower in days to come. Here Gandalf states that if Sauron regains the Ring, his victory will be so swift and complete that it would last as long as the world lasted.
Do you think Gandalf holds any hope that were that to occur, the Valar would personally intervene to balance ‘the force’? Or does he (rightly? wrongly?) believe that Frodo, like Obi Wan Kenobi, is their only Hope?
F. Sauron’s Destiny, part II
But if the Ring is destroyed, Sauron will also be destroyed… errr, sorry, not actually destroyed. Just brought incredibly low and bereft of any chance to regain power. Given that we know the end of the story (hint – the Ring is destroyed), what do you imagine is Sauron’s state during the 4th Age? Is he gnawing at himself in the shadows of M.E. like Ungoliant or the lost balrogs, or somewhere outside where other spirits/powers reside?
G. Gandalf’s insight into the inner workings of Sauron’s mind
Gandalf displays quite a comprehensive understanding of Sauron. Are we to take this as an authoritative statement on Sauron’s mind, that the doubt and folly Gandalf describes is truly what Sauron feels?
What stands out to you in Gandalf’s descriptions of Sauron’s character and disposition towards the West?
Does it matter if we ever truly know what Sauron is like? Is he supposed to be an incomprehensible foe, or are we supposed to understand his reasoning in terms we can relate to?
H. Aragorn’s response
Aragorn speaks for himself only, claiming no authority to command others. It’s a nice selfless gesture, but should he be more forceful like Gandalf, urging others to join with him?
I. Elrohir’s response
What exactly was Elrond’s counsel? Do we believe he foresaw events to such a degree that he knew an armed assault against Mordor would potentially give the Ring Bearer the necessary time to arrive at Orodruin? Or was Elrond’s counsel more generic, to keep Sauron engaged in whatever way possible for as long as possible?
J. Eomer’s response
“All this is a bit above my pay grade, but since Aragorn helped me, I’ll help him”. Simple. Typical Rohirrim logic: there’s right, there’s wrong, and there’s orcs who need killing. Wonder how he’ll get along with his future brother-in-law Faramir?
K. Imhrahil’s response
Are you surprised that it’s Prince Imrahil and not Aragorn who speaks up aloud, about the responsibility of caring for those left behind?
L. A Thousand Mail-Clad Knights
OK, so I’m assuming Gandalf considers himself worth more than a thousand mail-clad knights. Aragorn as well. I imagine Elrond’s sons make the cut. Who else is there that is worthy of this great claim?
And that’s it, we’re ready to march towards Mordor to near-certain doom. Oh yeah, unless Frodo and Sam actually are successful -- can’t forget about them! Are you itching to get back to their story, or do you want to keep this ball rolling and find out what happens with the Hosts of the West?
|
|
|
a.s.
Valinor
Jun 2 2016, 12:20pm
Post #2 of 33
(2447 views)
Shortcut
|
|
it's the last debate of the Quest of the Nine Companions
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Is this the Last Debate in the War of the Ring? The Last Debate for Gandalf as the Enemy of Sauron? The Last Debate before “Evil Incarnate” is destroyed, never again to return in that form to Middle Earth? The Last of the Debates begun when the White Council was first formed?
I think this title means that it is the last debate concerning the Ring Quest, the last decision to be made about what they set out from Rivendell to accomplish. If this last chance fails, the quest fails (not to mention the impending destruction of civilization, if they should fail).
Why weren’t Gimli and Legolas invited?
Simply because they didn’t have any armies to command? Elrond took it as a Portent that Gimli and Legolas had arrived at the right time for his Council, isn't the fact that they've remained faithful to the Fellowship (and to Gandalf and Aragorn) and are also in Minas Tirith right now, a sign that they should be involved in any Debate?
Plus, it’s not like Elladan and Elrohir had a huge host, although 30 of the High Elves from Rivendell is nothing to be sneezed at.
Only "my lords" have been invited to this council. The decision makers. The sons of Elrond stand in deputy for Elrond himself.
Pip hasn't been invited, either. :-)
Elrohir’s response
What exactly was Elrond’s counsel?
Since it is followed by the professions of loyalty by Eomer and Imrahil, I'd say Elrond's counsel was to follow the commands of Elessar. Possibly the counsel of Elrond was rather to make sure the quest wasn't forgotten in the midst of battle and the desperate attempt to save Minis Tirith, and this is just a convenient place to state it.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
|
|
|
No One in Particular
Lorien
Jun 2 2016, 4:35pm
Post #3 of 33
(2437 views)
Shortcut
|
D. Does Gandalf now understand better Denethor’s point-of-view?
Gandalf here gives great props to Denethor’s understanding of the state of affairs, albeit without sharing his corresponding despair. Do you suppose Gandalf always shared this viewpoint but was previously focused on the task at hand (defending Minas Tirith from the WiKi and armies of Sauron), and thus didn’t want to agree with Denethor about the hopelessness of victory by arms?
Or now having won this battle, has his vision fully cleared and he finally sees something he didn’t want to confront?
I think Gandalf always understood Denethor's point of view perfectly from the beginning, as well as the massive, unbeatable forces arrayed against them. He simply didn't despair, unlike Denethor. Denethor considered that if Gondor fell, the war was lost, regardless of whether anything that flowered or grew survived. For Denethor, Gondor was the whole ball game, and nothing else really mattered. (Except Rohan, but as I've said before, he most likely thought of Rohan as "North Gondor".)
Denethor was playing a long game, but his game had come to the final throw. Gandalf was playing a far longer game, which he still had a chance of winning, even if Gondor fell, and realistically, even if Aragorn never inherits his kingdom. As long as Sauron falls, Gandalf wins.
Considered in that light, Denethor's mistrust of Gandalf becomes a little easier to understand. Denethor probably thought that Gandalf would have sacrificed Gondor in a heartbeat if it meant that Sauron would fall; but to Denethor, that implied that Gandalf wanted to rule Middle-earth. Gandalf had other intentions, but by the end Denethor could no longer see through his despair to realize that.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
|
|
|
InTheChair
Rohan
Jun 2 2016, 6:52pm
Post #4 of 33
(2419 views)
Shortcut
|
|
A bit of this and a bit of that.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
We’ve already had the “Council of Elrond”. Is this chapter referred to as a debate to avoid reusing the same phrasing? To me a council implies a different aura than a debate, so would titling this chapter “The Last Council” sound less dramatic?
Is it more of a Council if provides advice and guidance without direct personal involvement, and more of a debate if the discussed options involve participation and commitment of each member? Or do I confuse it with Counsel?
Plus, it’s not like Elladan and Elrohir had a huge host, although 30 of the High Elves from Rivendell is nothing to be sneezed at.
Weren't they 30 Dunadan? Or were you not thnking of the grey company?
Or now having won this battle, has his vision fully cleared and he finally sees something he didn’t want to confront?
I'd say it was more a case of beeing behind schedule. Before he always had to race to bring people together in the nick of time. Now with the victory at Pelennor there's finally some breathing space and he is able to act on the bigger picture again.
Do you think Gandalf holds any hope that were that to occur, the Valar would personally intervene to balance ‘the force’? Or does he (rightly? wrongly?) believe that Frodo, like Obi Wan Kenobi, is their only Hope?
Gandlaf might have thought given the nature of evil that had Sauron been victorious in ME, he would soone or later have made an attempt on Valinor. It is difficult to guess how long Gandalfs patience would have been but probably a lot longer than we would know. Provided he wasn't himself captured or killed.
Gandalf displays quite a comprehensive understanding of Sauron. Are we to take this as an authoritative statement on Sauron’s mind, that the doubt and folly Gandalf describes is truly what Sauron feels?
It ought to be so. We do not know how much hurt Sauron took from his last downfall. Took him a fair time to come back, and with one of the wise, or even Aragorn wielding the ring, a similar fall must have seemed a distinct possibility. If you burn your hand on the flame you don''t want to do it again, even if you know if won't kill you.
Or was Elrond’s counsel more generic, to keep Sauron engaged in whatever way possible for as long as possible?
It take Elronds advice to be, stand up against Sauron. We've watched and waited too long, that won't help us any longer. That's the general philosophy conveyed by Elround throughout the story.
Are you surprised that it’s Prince Imrahil and not Aragorn who speaks up aloud, about the responsibility of caring for those left behind?
Not really. Imrahil is the temp as it would be. He may not have as much personal investment in it as someone like Denethor or Faramir so instead he falls back on form and duty, and that brings up the subject.
OK, so I’m assuming Gandalf considers himself worth more than a thousand mail-clad knights. Aragorn as well. I imagine Elrond’s sons make the cut. Who else is there that is worthy of this great claim?
I don't know if this was intended to mean worth equal to a thousand knights in battle. More that among them were no few rulers, rightful kings and princes. People that someone like Sauron might have seen as potential partners in the bigger picture. Leaders to govern their people under Saurons rule. Now instead they are all coming to the doors to wallop him. As Gandalf says it, no, he will not laugh.
(This post was edited by InTheChair on Jun 2 2016, 6:55pm)
|
|
|
enanito
Rohan
Jun 2 2016, 7:21pm
Post #5 of 33
(2412 views)
Shortcut
|
Ummm, you are 100% correct that I somehow transitioned the 30 Dúnadan into 30 High Elves. Quite a feat!
So it seems that the concept that Elrohir and Elladan are present in the Debate to represent Elrond is much more likely, since the Dúnadan would of course follow Aragorn's lead.
|
|
|
Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 2 2016, 8:18pm
Post #6 of 33
(2406 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Glad they weren’t TORnsibs – They’d still be debating - *4 smiley faces*
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
A. Council or Debate?
Good point. I’m with you as this seems more of a counsil/agreement than a debate.
As Gandalf says:
’ His Eye is now straining towards us, blind almost to all else that is moving. So we must keep it.' The logic is impeccable. Knowing that Frodo and Sam are most likely inside Mordor Gandalf is wisely recommending a show of force outside the walls of Mordor giving the Ring-bearers that slim chance to complete their mission.
And Aragorn says:
’ Let none now reject the counsels of Gandalf, whose long labours against Saruron come at last to their test.’ Thus without the saving grace of the Army of the West and the Eye ever outward the Ring-bearers would have little chance of success.
C. Why weren’t Gimli and Legolas invited?
Simply because they didn’t have any armies to command? Elrond took it as a Portent that Gimli and Legolas had arrived at the right time for his Council, isn't the fact that they've remained faithful to the Fellowship (and to Gandalf and Aragorn) and are also in Minas Tirith right now, a sign that they should be involved in any Debate?
Plus, it’s not like Elladan and Elrohir had a huge host, although 30 of the High Elves from Rivendell is nothing to be sneezed at.
If this were an ‘by invitation only’ conference we might ask who WAS at the “Last Debate”? Imrahil a captain of men; Eomer now King of Rohan; Aragorn the Future King; Gandalf; and Elrohir and Elladan representing the Peredhil and we could say the 30 Dunedain Rangers of the North, (would Halbarad have been invited?).
I think personally that knowing the honor, integrity, and steadfastness of mission, that Gimli and Legolas SHOULD have been ‘invited’ to represent their respective races, although they were captains of none. (They were certainly ‘invited’ to march with the Army of the West as singular representatives of their races. *Slight forward dip*  )
"I never said most of the things I said."
- Yogi & Me
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 2 2016, 8:51pm
Post #7 of 33
(2397 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It's a very philosophically stern debate
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Gandalf's argument is that it is their duty to do whatever they can to fight Sauron's evil, even though it is beyond them to guarantee success, and though any success against evil will only be temporary.
It reminds me of:
"It is not your responsibility to finish the work of perfecting the world, but you are not free to desist from it either."
Rabbi Tarfon, Pirke Avot 2:21
There is more of this by-now-familiar effort to read the portents - I note Aragorn's idea that the palantir came to him specifically so that he might challenge Sauron.
Is it really the final jeopardy though? Jeopardy in an old usage - as in a game where (say) you win if you through double six, but lose otherwise? Final for Aragorn et al because they must now either die, or be saved by Frodo. But final for Sauron?
In the event, the Ring is destroyed just in time to save Aragorn and his forces; a satisfying piece of storytelling. But had the Men of the West lost the battle, I suppose there would still have been a little time for Frodo and Sam to finish their mission, while Sauron launched further attacks on his enemies.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
|
|
|
Al Carondas
Lorien
Jun 3 2016, 1:05am
Post #8 of 33
(2372 views)
Shortcut
|
I agree that there is more agreement to this debate than there is debate.  I guess what is really being debated is the depth of commitment of the commanders. Will they be willing to play out this losing hand to the bitter end? Or will they believe in the false hope of standing their ground for as long as they can? It's the last debate, because it is the last time that Gandalf will ask others to trust him when he says that the destruction of the Ring is the only hope. Yet, as you say, there ends up being no debate at all. Everyone is ready.
Gandalf has known from the first just how nearly hopeless his plan is, but he has the faith to follow it through and trust to the Powers that sent him. Denethor just could not maintain such hope in what seemed like a lost cause. Will they come to Middle-earth's aid if Sauron recovers the Ring? Excellent question. Gandalf can't know for sure, but he is not going to be the one to let the Valar down.
Gimli and Legolas are undoubtedly ready as well. They probably didn't even need to assure Aragorn that they would follow him in whatever course he chose. They're solid. So, I think they did well to go and reunite with Merry and Pip while they had the chance. I guess, really, they are representing Aragorn in the reunion as much as Aragorn is representing them in the council.
Aragorn is the master of the soft sell, eh? As can be seen, he doesn't need to be any more forceful. Everyone loves the guy, and there just isn't any doubt left about his rightful place as their leader. To paraphrase:
Elrohir: "Are you kidding? We didn't come all this way to turn back now!"
Eomer: "Yeah, yeah, whatever. Aragorn's killing orcs - I'm coming along."
But I like Imrahil's response best: "I don't care if you claim it or not, I say you are my liege-lord, so there."
"Good Morning!"
|
|
|
Al Carondas
Lorien
Jun 3 2016, 1:44am
Post #9 of 33
(2364 views)
Shortcut
|
When we first meet Eomer he speaks highly of Boromir, singling him out as a Gondorian who was "more like to the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor". And Tolkien, in fact, in that first meeting, describes Eomer's manner and tone of speech as being like that of Boromir. I see great parallels between these two characters. Neither of them feels comfortable with "deep matters" of lore. Both value bravery and strength above all. Eomer was lucky enough never to have been tempted by the Ring.
Yet, had Boromir survived the attack at Parth Galen, do you think he would have become as dedicated to Aragorn as Eomer shows himself to be here in "The Last Debate"? For I cannot help but see a shadow of Boromir in Eomer as he stands here.
And here's a crazy thought: Considering the timing of Eomer's introduction into the story, is golden-haired Eomer, in a sense (not literally), Boromir reborn - a sort of Boromir the White? I don't mean literally, of course, but is this character partly meant to show us the Boromir that might have been?
"Good Morning!"
(This post was edited by Al Carondas on Jun 3 2016, 1:46am)
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 3 2016, 7:50am
Post #11 of 33
(2340 views)
Shortcut
|
|
To some extent they are both foils for Aragorn.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Éomer and Boromir are both, for their respective societies, archetypal heroes. They're integrated in their cultures, and have superb skills. Aragorn has all that, plus the right genes, as well as more age and experience. Éomer falls in line, as does Imrahil (with a great deal more authority). What would Boromir have done?
In early drafts, Tolkien assumed Aragorn and Boromir would have to fight to the death at Minas Tirith. I'm very glad it worked out this way instead.
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 3 2016, 1:23pm
Post #14 of 33
(2321 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I've always felt the same snub
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I think G&L should have been present too. They had no armies at Rivendell either, but they were in that Council.
But this might have been a matter of racial sensitivity. Men distrust Elves, and they're not using to seeing Dwarves. I'm even thinking of the real-life modern-day backlash against globalization that we're seeing and thinking that Gandalf, knowing his audience, kept it to one race (with the sons of Elrond passed off as Men).
And to touch on a point that others have made: Gandalf and Denethor differed over what was at stake in fighting Sauron: just Gondor, or the world? I think Eomer, Imrahil, and the Men who followed them needed to be told by their leaders that Men had decided this was a fight to save the Good Men of the West from the Evil East, not a Grand Alliance of all Races. They might balk at the latter.
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 3 2016, 1:28pm
Post #15 of 33
(2315 views)
Shortcut
|
"more agreement to this debate than there is debate. I guess what is really being debated is the depth of commitment of the commanders. Will they be willing to play out this losing hand to the bitter end?"
Maybe it should be called "Coach Gandalf's Last Pep Rally for the Team". He is, in a way, testing their resolve. And we do see the faint-hearted later get dismissed by Aragorn. So we shouldn't focus too literally on whether it's a "debate" or not.
|
|
|
enanito
Rohan
Jun 3 2016, 1:35pm
Post #16 of 33
(2314 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Thanks from a newbie (or at least a newer-bie)!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Agreed, thanks to Elizabeth and Squire for mentioning something I hadn't heard of before (I'm sure it's made it's way through many previous TORN threads, but us newbies -- or newerbies -- don't have that history!).
That line of thinking does give a different aspect to Denethor's madness and suicide. It kind of gives a parallel to how the Leaders of the White Council had to overcome their own internal rebellion before being able to truly confront Sauron. The Leaders of the Men of the West as well, would then have to overcome internal strife before having a unified front against Mordor. It ended up not being a formal rebellion, which would have definitely given a different flow to this part of the story.
As it's written I always saw Denethor as a one-off, with Boromir redeemed and the other Captains of Men nicely aligning with Aragorn. But it's interesting to consider this line of thinking.
|
|
|
enanito
Rohan
Jun 3 2016, 1:49pm
Post #17 of 33
(2313 views)
Shortcut
|
I had considered that possibly since the 4th Age is the time of Men, that possibly this council was a formalization of the fact that it was time for Men to take ownership of things. But of course this is not the only battle being fought against the hosts of Sauron, we later find out that Lorien (and I think Rivendell and the Dwarves also??) as well has fought against Mordor during this same timeframe. So Men aren't the only ones in this War.
Plus, it's not like Gimli and Legolas have checked out and given up on M.E. since the dominion of their races is ending. As they walk through Minas Tirith both are enthusiastic about being able to actively participate in 'making the city great again' (sounds like a good campaign phrase!). So I don't feel like they're disinterested parties.
So I guess I do come back to feeling like it's an unnecessary 'snub' :)
|
|
|
enanito
Rohan
Jun 3 2016, 6:15pm
Post #19 of 33
(2295 views)
Shortcut
|
Let's say the Hosts of the West are obliterated outside the Morannan, because F&S are still a day or two away from the slopes of Mount Doom. Would Sauron continue to attack his enemies?
I'm thinking Sauron's main (and only?) purpose is to discover where the Ring is. Does he pay such close attention to, and is willing to draw in, the host from Gondor, only because he assumes the Ring must be present in the midst? And if so, wouldn't he (or his Ringwraiths) comb the battlefield and discover the Ring is not there? And then have a panic-attack?
I guess he might assume the Ring had been hidden in a stronghold like Lorien or Rivendell or Crickethollow... and throw his might into assaulting them to recover it. But I'd think it's just as likely he'd get really nervous that maybe this had indeed been a diversion to distract him, and take a closer look at what's going on in the homefront.
Guesswork of course, but guessing is fun!
|
|
|
Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 3 2016, 8:14pm
Post #20 of 33
(2277 views)
Shortcut
|
Let's say the Hosts of the West are obliterated outside the Morannan, because F&S are still a day or two away from the slopes of Mount Doom. Would Sauron continue to attack his enemies? As all the Lords and Mighty of the Free Peoples would be gone (save Lorien and Imladris) there would be no immediate need to press on. The men and orcs would be given a three-day’s leave (with pay), head home, and Frodo would be captured trying to move south across the desolation of Gorgoroth, which would now be replete with vacationing evil-doers.
All is lost! Sauron has retrieved “a little ring, the least of rings” that once was stolen by thief Bilbo.
'Still it might be well for all if all these strengths were joined, and the powers of each were used in league.'
-Glóin
|
|
|
InTheChair
Rohan
Jun 3 2016, 10:02pm
Post #21 of 33
(2268 views)
Shortcut
|
|
And if so, wouldn't he (or his Ringwraiths) comb the battlefield and discover the Ring is not there?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
On the assumption that no one in the host of the west got away, if he is paranoid enough, he might start to put the screws on his own people to figure out who took it, and keeps it hidden? Could buy an extra day or two for Frodo.
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 3 2016, 10:09pm
Post #22 of 33
(2263 views)
Shortcut
|
|
He would focus on Aragorn and Gandalf.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Just as the orcs were given strict instructions to bring Hobbits to Isengard (or Barad Dur) "alive and unspoiled," I'm quite sure similar orders would obtain in regard to these two chief suspects. They would be seized alive, if at all possible, and interrogated.
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 3 2016, 10:26pm
Post #23 of 33
(2266 views)
Shortcut
|
|
There really needed to be some conflict.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
From an authorial POV, it really wouldn't have worked for the King to come in and take over completely unopposed. Denethor's adamant opposition (to the death) serves that purpose. It's interesting that it's timed to coincide with the critical events on the battlefield, while we have absolutely no idea where Aragorn is or what he is doing (although we have faith...), rather than some actual confrontation with the man himself.
Tolkien's strategy of sending one or more major characters off into oblivion for an extended period is very effective, and quite contrary to the current plotting strategies of circulating frequently between the subplots (as used in Jackson's movies and, for that matter, most current movies and TV series). In around 2004 there was a very accomplished fan edit of the movies that removed all the completely foreign plot elements (e.g., "Arwen is leaving/dying") and re-ordering events book-wise. It was interesting to watch, but IMO would not have been effective in the theater. It works well in the books, though.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jun 3 2016, 10:27pm)
|
|
|
Al Carondas
Lorien
Jun 4 2016, 2:19am
Post #24 of 33
(2254 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Maybe Boromir won Tolkien over
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I have always thought that Denethor's suicide represents the final working out of Tolkien's first thought, noted by you, that Boromir would turn evil and lead an armed rebellion against Aragorn's claim to the throne when the Company arrived at Minas Tirith.
Right. So maybe Denethor became Tolkien's fall guy, because he ultimately decided that Boromir wasn't cut out for that role. To me, it has that feel.
Conversely, I wonder how Eomer would have fared had the Ring come within his grasp? Does he possess some quality that might have saved him - some quality that Boromir does not?
"Good Morning!"
|
|
|
InTheChair
Rohan
Jun 4 2016, 6:49am
Post #25 of 33
(2229 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Would Grishnakh have been faithful?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Could be though it is not certain how any of them would have acted if the ring had been there.
If Pippin had been the ring-bearer and Grishnakh had found it, would he really have brought it back to Sauron?
Also Sauron might have assumed that the ring was left behind in Minas Tirith. Frodo could still have a day or two extra, but of course it would not be a hollow victory with Aragorn Eomer Faramir and Imrahil dead, and Gandalf defeated. Frodo and Sam to would have died in the eruption.
|
|
|
|
|
Cue sheepish grin
[
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
Interesting idea! //
[
1
