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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Do you think Del Toro's Hobbit would've been better?
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malickfan
Gondor


Jun 1 2016, 8:35pm

Post #26 of 58 (1275 views)
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Possibly in a third way... [In reply to] Can't Post

...GDT seemed to indicate in interviews (and through some of the design work attributed to him) that he responded more to the novel as a standalone fairytale, and talked at length about it being a story of self discovery on Bilbo's part, speaking as someone who largely appreciates The Hobbit on its own merits, rather than merely something that leads into the 'big event', I'm inclined to think he might have put more effort into making it stand apart on its own and push the design work into new areas, i.e it may very have turned out to be a better, or worse film, but I do think that GDT's fresh perspective would have benefited the film in some ways-less fanservice, or bloated subplots, and lowered expectations as we would have had less idea of what to anticipate.

Whether GDT would have ended up making superior films is ultimately impossible to guess...but at the very least it would have certainly lead to some very different discussions here...

GDT did also indicate very strongly in interviews he wanted an older actor for the part of Thorin (Ian McShane, who I always pictured (and still do) as Thorin reading the book was rumoured), had that gone ahead that would have drastically altered Bilbo and Thorin's relationship i.m.o, and possibly impacted on how much they pulled/reworked from the appendices material.








malickfan
Gondor


Jun 1 2016, 8:46pm

Post #27 of 58 (1274 views)
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These images are along the lines of how I picture Thorin: [In reply to] Can't Post





(Maybe not quite as old though)

I do think Armitage is a great actor, and I certainly respect how much effort he put into the role, but i.m.o Jackson's Thorin was too far from the character I knew and loved from the books for me to accept his screen counterpart...honestly I find the tragic warrior angle in the films kinda boring...

As a straight male the 'cute' dwarves made very little impact on me (other than wondering how impractical some of the designs were), but Balin and Bombur were almost exactly how I pictured them to be (Ken Stott remains my favourite actor from the trilogy)...








(This post was edited by malickfan on Jun 1 2016, 8:49pm)


Avandel
Half-elven


Jun 1 2016, 9:00pm

Post #28 of 58 (1268 views)
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Thank you - beautifully said IMO [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But for me the scale of Peter Jackson's imagination is one of the things that brought real visual magic to the filmed version of Middle-earth. When I try to re-imagine the 'Inside information' scenes with a Smaug the size of Tolkien's illustration it becomes tame and disappointing. A dragon that size breaking through the entrance to the Lonely Mountain wouldn't be nearly as awe-inspiring: it would be hard to believe that all those dwarves really could do nothing to stop him. And that isn't a criticism of the book, because a reader's imagination isn't tied to the illustrations in a book. It draws more on the emotions you feel when reading - the illustrations are just a jumping-off point...


I came away from each of PJ's films excited by a vision of Tolkien's world that was much bigger than anything I'd dared to imagine.



THIS

With PJ's work - oh, yes. It's always so much RICHER than anything I could imagineHeart. And innovative. IMO it's genius, but genius I don't even think of UNTIL I start thinking about it. CrazyLike the tombs of the Nine - they didn't exist? but now they do, and IMO they are perfect "deep in the rock they buried him...in a tomb so dark it would never come to light..."



The use of scale, perspective, and DESIGN - such a brief scene and IMO so evocative....

But then PJ can film intimate scenes and IMO do it so perfectly, that they become for me some of the most beautiful ever put on film...HeartHeartHeart




Just geniusHeart. How does one come up with the Goblin King and LOL his eyeballLaugh, simultaneously funny and yet very, very dangerous?




I didn't really know what I was going to see, that first viewing of AUJ. But I was content because Middle Earth was in PJ's hands....



If I had ever pictured the Hobbit at all in my mind, I suppose it was something childlike and vaguely folklore-like. Instead, IMO, PJ & co. did something spectacular and still, IMO with a stellar cast, kept it all "reachable" with characters to care a lot about. Heart

Hmm - it almost sounds as tho, re the OP, I wouldn't have been so happy with del Toro - well, how can I knowUnsure? But these Hobbit films became my very favorite films and the most re-watched, so I suppose it's unlikely I would have been happi-er.









Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu






Avandel
Half-elven


Jun 1 2016, 9:36pm

Post #29 of 58 (1258 views)
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Very nice post IMO (: [In reply to] Can't Post

OK. I can see this...it reminds me of that wonderful sculpt Heart (that I need to do a screenshot of at some point) that was shown in the Appendices when dwarf concepts were being developed...



And personally I wouldn't have objected to the original older, craggier looks for Thorin in the Appendices either, because IMO it had kind of a wild Norse look - well, "more wild" IMO. Neither the concept you show, or Thorin's actual look, for me, crossed my mind at the timeShocked. The book Thorin was my favorite and if I had ever had a concept at all, I suppose it was an irascible version of Theoden of the film LOTR. Something a BIT like the Dain of the films. Fiesty, but whimsical, really.

LOL the tragic hero - although I think ultimately this Thorin is set apart from many because there are foul-ups, his intelligence and complexity (such as accepting Orcrist) and his relationship with Bilbo which IMO is beautifully done, and for me more expressive than that of the original material.

But I think one problem with this look is that it would be too akin to that of a "wise wizard", so visually there's an issue - which I think as a lead character isn't the greatest contrast IMO... Shocked





I don't KNOW that's the reason for Thorin's final look - e.g. to NOT be one "hairy old lead guy onscreen too manyUnsure although you do mention "maybe not this old?" - some things are said in the Appendices - but clearly PJ & co. were paying a LOT of attention to the visuals, understood the importance of silhouettes, of making each and every dwarf an individual. So I think the older Gandalf and "middle-aged" Thorin visually work very well. I suppose Thorin could have been aged up more, tho that's back to the look they started with, I think.

And it's clear they wanted folks to relate to Thorin, and CARE about him...which I think is a different approach than kind of shrugging at the end over the fate of a lead character. On screen tho, through 2 or 3 movies, for me, I think I'd WANT to care about the character (who was my book favorite anyway) who is going to do SOMETHING suicidal at the last. I don't think I'd want to sit through all that time and then have to feel like it MATTERS. Same as we needed to care about Aragorn and Boromir and Theoden.

(This post was edited by Avandel on Jun 1 2016, 9:50pm)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 1 2016, 11:15pm

Post #30 of 58 (1247 views)
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Despite that, he made the move to include [In reply to] Can't Post

the Dol Guldur and some appendices material and stretch to two Hobbit films during his tenure. You can read Guillermo's own comment on the need for two films here and his more detailed explanation of his approach here. I'm not actually sure that he would have had "less bloat" since as we have seen over and over, bloat is in the eye of the beholder and no two people seem able to agree on what constitutes it. Lower expectations...perhaps, although I doubt it. Is there any power in the 'verse that can keep fanboys and girls from unreasonably high expectations? As for fanservice...that's also in the eye of the beholder. He might have even enraged the fans more, by following his own vision which might well have varied even further from the childhood imaginings of the Real Fans than PJ did.

For myself, I was curious to see what he would do with the films, but with very little expectation of finding them anything like my own impressions of the story. In fact, I was quite prepared to find GDT's Middle-earth nigh unrecognizable. The few descriptions of creature designs that we got contributed greatly to that impression.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 1 2016, 11:23pm

Post #31 of 58 (1253 views)
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Guillermo in his own words. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's difficult-to-impossible to distinguish now what del Toro would have done from the things that people were/are desperately hoping he would do, let alone guessing which of the loved/hated elements in the movies have his fingerprints on them.

However, I suspect the wyvern design of Smaug may well have been his, as well as the whole gold statue/being smothered in gold, based on this comment:

Quote
To me, Smaug is the perfect example of a great creature defined by its look and design, yes, but also, very importantly, by his movement and -One little hint- its environment - Think about it...

and elaborated on here:

Quote
-What I meant by the environment / Smaug relationship is about the way he is scaled, moves and is lit, limited or enhanced by his location, weather conditions, light conditions, time of the year, etc. That's all I can say without spoilers but, if you keep this curious little summary you'll realize several years form now that those things I had in my mind ever since doodling the character as a kid had solidified waaay before starting the shoot of the film.



Some of you may not know this, but during his tenure as director on The Hobbit, he joined our forums and posted here from time to time, giving hints or tidbits and talking about his approach to the project and films in general. I encourage everyone to go back and read what he posted while he was here. It's as close as you'll ever get to answering some of these questions, I think. When Guillermo reluctantly stepped away from the Hobbit due to the endlessly-delayed green light, he did so graciously and completely and has since wisely refrained from comment or critique on PJ's films. He made it pretty clear he wasn't interested in dwelling on the past, or getting personally involved in any postmortems, so I doubt we'll ever get many more details.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Avandel
Half-elven


Jun 2 2016, 1:29am

Post #32 of 58 (1232 views)
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Nice - thank you (: [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Some of you may not know this, but during his tenure as director on The Hobbit, he joined our forums and posted here from time to time, giving hints or tidbits and talking about his approach to the project and films in general. I encourage everyone to go back and read what he posted while he was here. It's as close as you'll ever get to answering some of these questions, I think.


Well, I didn't know, being a latecomerFrown. So that information is appreciated. And without knowing the film business I remember what Philippa said about a film in progress needing or having? a kind of momentum. As Dormouse has commented in other posts, pushing the Hobbit through took a lot, and in the end, rightly or wrongly, three successful filmsSmile - not for all but certainly where it matters - sales, and interest. No-one is writing snarky articles about "those disastrous Hobbit bombs" and the media WOULD, given the chance *meh*.Unimpressed




Omnigeek
Lorien


Jun 2 2016, 4:17am

Post #33 of 58 (1211 views)
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Still not a GdT fan [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To




(Maybe not quite as old though)

I do think Armitage is a great actor, and I certainly respect how much effort he put into the role, but i.m.o Jackson's Thorin was too far from the character I knew and loved from the books for me to accept his screen counterpart...honestly I find the tragic warrior angle in the films kinda boring...

As a straight male the 'cute' dwarves made very little impact on me (other than wondering how impractical some of the designs were), but Balin and Bombur were almost exactly how I pictured them to be (Ken Stott remains my favourite actor from the trilogy)...


but this if far superior to what we got. This is almost exactly the right look for Thorin although the traveling hood should be sky blue with silver tassels ... Wink

I can tell the difference between old guys with beards, especially when there's a 3 foot height difference (apparently unlike some others on the fora).


Noria
Gondor

Jun 2 2016, 12:36pm

Post #34 of 58 (1187 views)
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Telling the Dwarves apart [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe that the choices made were not so much about being able to tell the Dwarves apart but of making them visually more distinct and interesting. Thirteen Dwarves of the same Gimli type could be boring since there’s probably a limit to how much variation there could be among them. On the other hand, the audience and Bilbo being unable to distinguish them might have been played for comedic effect, briefly before it got old.

All of Thorin’s company had to be present in a great number of scenes and only some of them were ever going to be featured. At least the other guys get a kind of visual development. Some people advocated cutting the number of Dwarves but I like the kind of group personality and synchronized fighting style that the larger group make possible.

I think I recall PJ saying at some point that he wanted the Dwarves to be recognizable in silhouette.



adt100
Rohan


Jun 2 2016, 1:43pm

Post #35 of 58 (1181 views)
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Impossible to judge really.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Both PJ and GDT have made some truly great films prior to The Hobbit and also some less good ones. I think GDT's would certainly have been very different, visually.

I absolutely adore Pan's Labyrinth and with this in mind a GDT version certainly had the potential to be a really good/great film. Then again, coming from LOTR, so did PJ's version. Given a smoother run I think PJ's could have touched the greatness of LOTR but the early problems in this regard certainly didn't help reach those heights.

My gut feeling is that, without the burden of expectation of LOTR, a fresh approach and more freedom, a GDT Hobbitr might have been a better film/films. BUT, I also think that stylistically it would have been hugely different to PJ's LOTR and possibly even less faithful. Very much a standalone film/films.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 2 2016, 2:43pm

Post #36 of 58 (1171 views)
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Yes, they say exactly that about the silhouettes... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think it's actually Peter Jackson who says it but someone else - maybe Richard Taylor? - who says on one of the early EE documentaries that PJ wanted to create a distinctive silhouette for each dwarf to allow the audience to pick out and recognise individuals in the long shots when we see them travelling and so on. Comes down to the same thing, though, no matter who said it. Seems to me to be a decision any sensible film-maker would have made - the filmic equivalent of referring to them by name in the text.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Avandel
Half-elven


Jun 2 2016, 4:13pm

Post #37 of 58 (1152 views)
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but re [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I can tell the difference between old guys with beards, especially when there's a 3 foot height difference (apparently unlike some others on the fora).



I don't think it's been suggested/said that folks in general can't tell individuals who have similar characteristics apart - although I would read some occasional IMO foolish snark about how the said writer couldn't tell the Hobbit film dwarves apart - except for Thorin...Crazy

But as Philippa mentioned, more or less, that 13 hairy squares would have been "visually uninteresting". Never paid attention to film-making concepts before the Hobbit Appendices, but was just watching Thor on TV w. commentary, and director and costumers also used words like silhouette and impact and line. So I take it that those concepts of form, color, proportion, shape etc. (which to me are "art" concepts) are critical when making a film.

Who knows all that went on re developing the look for the dwarves? I've no doubt those old images of the LOTR dwarves at the Council were looked at very hard, because you have several dwarves together, and PJ already knew they all kind of looked similar, and that kind of thing just wasn't going to work with the dwarves as main characters.

Consider:



This image has always struck me, because even at the same height, there's a strong color and silhouette contrast between "Thorin" and "Gandalf." They're instantly recognizable, and this shot was originally taken a distance when the actors were in private conversation.



Also:



IMO clearly different and representative of three different races, with distinct contrasts of overall look/clothes.

vs.



IMO this is a perfectly nice bit of art, and possibly what a lot of folks vaguely imagine the dwarves may have looked like at Bag End. Yet possibly this was the kind of thing that PJ & co. actively worked to avoidUnsure, as over the long haul of two-three films, and especially in distance shots, I'd want to know who was who. And I imagine - since it didn't happen - but if all the dwarves HAD remained "13 hairy squares" it may be more difficult to stay engaged with them emotionally. Even the "Snow White/Huntsman" dwarves are distinctly different, more so than the group of LOTR dwarves. Again, a film where the dwarves are significant characters, not background.




glor
Rohan

Jun 2 2016, 11:07pm

Post #38 of 58 (1115 views)
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13 Hairy Squares [In reply to] Can't Post

Not only visually uninteresting but indistinguishable even, impenetrably baffling to non-Tolkien readers.

As for beards well, unless the beard itself is natural and the actors own, long usually false beards, createsthe comical waggle effect every time an actor speaks. Even short false beards look highly artificial in today's age of HD screens.

Although I have been married to a bearded man for almost 30 years, and when I say beard, I mean full beard, not modern hipster facial hair. This may mean I am more of an expert as it were, than some at spotting genuine growth..

Growing a beard of the length needed to please some Tolkien fans would have required the actors to have been paid to stay at home and grow facial hair for months if not, years, not practical in today's world.

I do think beard length is a diversion ( copyright Legolas) when it comes to Thorin. I do however think that utilising his hair to age him more would have bought him closer to the book. I do not mean full grey, just more heavily streaked with the hair both facial and cranial, having a more aged texture e.g less glossy.

No mascara can survive BOTFA


Avandel
Half-elven


Jun 3 2016, 4:51pm

Post #39 of 58 (1065 views)
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I'm willing to trust the filmmakers re dwarf looks.... [In reply to] Can't Post

as well as the other looks for the other races....


Quote
As for beards well, unless the beard itself is natural and the actors own, long usually false beards, createsthe comical waggle effect every time an actor speaks. Even short false beards look highly artificial in today's age of HD screens.


I think this might have been particularly true of the more active - and often with a camera in his face - Thorin. For myself I tend to think of any scene where the wind might have been blowing or he was running (warg chase) and dealing with OrcristShocked. The fact that PJ & co. apparently decided that a long beard was "too distracting" to me suggests that that was a look that was tested and rejected for THIS character. Well, you could tuck a beard into a belt, but then it's going to be tugging the way any long hair does when bound.



I think of that scene w. Thranduil and how effective that wasHeart - and a lot of what I look at is Thorin's eyes. So I can imagine that scene wouldn't have been the same if I were distracted in a very tight close-up with a lot of moving hair around his mouth, possibly. I just put up a picture of Gloin and found my eyes DO want to keep drifting to look at that massive beard, rather than staying on his eyes.

IMO very good point about the HD.Smile Re the amount of gray or silver in the hair - personally for me I wonder if it's simply a matter of color, again, on screen. RA has, I think, fair skin that looks well against dark. Color-wise, it's a nice contrast. With these cameras apparently sucking the red out of everything and possibly having other effects on colors, perhaps - aside from the fact that the fillmmakers decided on "an older Bilbo, and a younger Thorin" it's also a matter of simple color aesthetics and contrasts. Especially when you are going to have scenes where there is a lot of desaturation.Shocked



IMO w. gray hair, I think this would be pretty monotone, w. the grayish fur.Shocked


MedwedtoBeorn
Rivendell

Jun 4 2016, 3:03pm

Post #40 of 58 (1031 views)
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Better? [In reply to] Can't Post

Without having them to compare we will never know. I would have liked to have had GDT make them based off some of the rumors. Ian McShane as Thorin, Brian Blessed as Dain Ironfoot, and Ron Perleman as Beorn were all casting choices I would have rather seen. I think the older grizzled Thorin would have left Bilbo as the primary protagonist. When Armitage was cast and the character was made to be more of a hero-king protagonist in the vein of Aragorn it changed the arc of the movies. It required more scenes to show Thorin's prowess but that could have been shown with flashbacks. It also drove the Thorin-Azog story arc which was a big deviation from the books.It likely caused other characters to be diminished. Beorn for example probably suffered because you couldn't have a three movie arc and have Beorn crash in at the BoFA as the Dues Ex to bring about victory. The changing of Thorin to co-protagonist with Bilbo drove many changes in the narrative arc of the movie.

Also, I would have love to have seen GDT's designs. I think Smaug would have been different but fantastic. I think Beorn would have been much more impressive. I would have liked to have seen his designs for the Dwarves and Wood Elves and their realms and clothing and armor. The same for the Goblins and Orcs and goblin town. I would have liked to have seen his imagination in the design of Mirkwood. I think his imagination and Alan Lee and John Howe would have produced some amazing work.

This all being said, I loved PJs Hobbit movies and feel like the fit well with the LotR trilogy. I think the same love and dedication went into making these movies and Martin Freeman was a singularly awesome casting decision. If PJ had had the pre-production time when GDT was on the project, I think the movies would have been more refined. All of us that love Middle Earth were brought into the magic and industry of adapting Tolkien's work to the big screen with access never seen before and likely will never have again. When future adaptations are made, and I believe they will be made I won't have the expectations of seeing behind the movies that we got here.


weathertop
Rohan


Jun 4 2016, 6:30pm

Post #41 of 58 (1011 views)
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you bring up a couple interesting points [In reply to] Can't Post

I think i too would have much preferred Ron Perelman's Beorn rather than the Sonic-that-was.

While I didn't have a major problem with Azog at first, I did have a problem with Bolg. Here's why:
Before Bolg came in, Azog was basically Bolg's stand-in. I saw it as a way to keep that same theme without introducing another character. If Azog had died in the battle (per the books) then you'd have to introduce Bolg as his decendant. While that could have been done, i thought it an OK deviation to just have Azog survive and be that character. However, when they had Bolg come in - that just shot that theory all to hell...

I also think that many of the questions raised about GDT's designs being different than PJ's might be misplaced. I think that GDT worked closely with PJ&Co in pre-production & PJ started production not long after he took the helm so I don't think he had time to do many changes to what that collaboration came up with. I think the Smaug we got, was a direct product of that collaboration. I'm guessing that the Dwarven silhouette designs were also created there.

Enginerd


LSF
Gondor

Jun 4 2016, 6:53pm

Post #42 of 58 (1004 views)
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dwarves designs [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember reading somewhere that GDT's dwarf costume designs were that they all wore the same black armour thing, so maybe that individual silhouette thing wasn't until after he left.


MedwedtoBeorn
Rivendell

Jun 4 2016, 9:34pm

Post #43 of 58 (990 views)
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Design differences [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think i too would have much preferred Ron Perelman's Beorn rather than the Sonic-that-was.

While I didn't have a major problem with Azog at first, I did have a problem with Bolg. Here's why:
Before Bolg came in, Azog was basically Bolg's stand-in. I saw it as a way to keep that same theme without introducing another character. If Azog had died in the battle (per the books) then you'd have to introduce Bolg as his decendant. While that could have been done, i thought it an OK deviation to just have Azog survive and be that character. However, when they had Bolg come in - that just shot that theory all to hell...

I also think that many of the questions raised about GDT's designs being different than PJ's might be misplaced. I think that GDT worked closely with PJ&Co in pre-production & PJ started production not long after he took the helm so I don't think he had time to do many changes to what that collaboration came up with. I think the Smaug we got, was a direct product of that collaboration. I'm guessing that the Dwarven silhouette designs were also created there.



MedwedtoBeorn
Rivendell

Jun 4 2016, 10:02pm

Post #44 of 58 (985 views)
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addition [In reply to] Can't Post

In the AUJ appendices, Richard Taylor mentions doing a complete redesign as GDT and PJ had very distinctive visual ideas and the task loading it created. PJ mentions it as well as needing to start over lest he found himself shooting a GDT movie and the had to be true to his own creative instincts and shoot a PJ movie.

Based on casting rumors, it sounds like GDT vision of Thorin was closer to the book and we would have had a more Bilbo centric story arc. It probably still included the White Council subplot.Also Legolas and Tauriel but they likely wouldn't have been so elevated in two movies. There wouldn't have been the Thorin-Azog hero antagonist arc. My guess is we still would have had the expanded Laketown exposition but maybe not the battle with Smaug in Erebor. I think it would have allowed Beorn to really thrive and be the decisive element of the BotFA.

All of these things I would have loved seeing along with GDT distinct visual creativity. I am still content with the PJ version.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 4 2016, 10:43pm

Post #45 of 58 (981 views)
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It definitely included the White Council.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I remember it being spoken about when Guillermo del Toro was directing. He also posted here about exploring the 'geopolitical background' (or words to that effect), so the idea of broadening out the story told in the book goes back before Peter Jackson took over.

And there was to be a female elf in GdT's time too, though if the first information about her was genuine her name was to be Itaril and she was to be in love with an elf from Rivendell. And when Legolas was first mentioned he was only to have a brief cameo.

As for Thorin, I'm not so sure he would have been closer to the book. I though it was said that Richard Armitage was under consideration in GdT's time - I remember reading something about GdT focussing heavily on BBC dramas for his cast. And there was some talk of a helmet with thorns - as a play on the name 'Thorin'.

Fact is we don''t know and I doubt we ever will.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


MedwedtoBeorn
Rivendell

Jun 4 2016, 11:06pm

Post #46 of 58 (975 views)
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Better Idea [In reply to] Can't Post

We might have a better idea if there was ever a chronicles book published to story GDT's time on the project. Maybe we will see it as extra in the expected 6 movie deluxe set.


(This post was edited by MedwedtoBeorn on Jun 4 2016, 11:14pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 5 2016, 10:12am

Post #47 of 58 (943 views)
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Better not, I think [In reply to] Can't Post

Guillermo del Toro stepped down from the film because of all the delays there were at the outset and very properly he didn't stick around to comment on what he would have done. That would be like setting up in competition (and could be pretty miserable for him). He got on with his life and let Peter Jackson get on with the film. I don't suppose GdT wants to rake it over and what purpose would it serve? It's a film he never made - life's full of might-have-beens.

Maybe one day he'll be able to use some of the ideas he had for The Hobbit for some other film and he's not going to want people saying that he's only recycling old ideas, is he?

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


MedwedtoBeorn
Rivendell

Jun 5 2016, 1:18pm

Post #48 of 58 (925 views)
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Mean to say [In reply to] Can't Post

GDT was working on script, design, and casting ideas living in New Zealand for 18 months before he left. If they were filming that pre-production phase for the appendices which I imagine they were expecting that things would go forward with GDT, there might be hours of appendix material in the vault. I am sure there were many John Howe and Alan Lee conceptual art sketches for most of the major elements in collaboration with GDT. Up until the point he left, there would be every reason to believe they were documenting and filming believing the project was on track with him.

I can understand why they wouldn't release this during theatrical release and the normal dvd and ee dvd releases as they ended up being PJ movies. That phase is over and it will likely be some time before the movies were ever done again so releasing it now would just be additional extra bonus material.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 5 2016, 6:04pm

Post #49 of 58 (911 views)
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Well, yes, they probably did document it.... [In reply to] Can't Post

..and who can say what they've done or will do with that material. But if I were in his position I wouldn't want it to be released. I can't see any difference between releasing it now or during the time Peter Jackson's films were coming out. It's still the film he didn't make, and why would he want to be reminded of it? Or to have people say 'like' or 'don't like' when they're never going to see how it would all have worked as a finished film?

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


glor
Rohan

Jun 5 2016, 6:19pm

Post #50 of 58 (905 views)
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GDT [In reply to] Can't Post

GDT Has cast more than one actor from the BBC's North and South in his films, and that is excluding RA.

Quote

I though it was said that Richard Armitage was under consideration in GdT's time


In the appendices to AUJ EE, one of the first documentaries shows a thin and ill looking PJ announcing GDT's departure, followed by a meeting. In the background of the meeting room, are design concepts for all the dwarves, with the actual actors names that appeared in the films underneath. Whilst all the actors/dwarves are not visible in the footage, it is quite clear from the timeline, as determined unfortunately by PJ's physical state that, the dwarves were cast and signed on around the time of GDT's departure, if not before, this IMHO is the best evidence we have afterall, scheduling and contracts take time, actors like RA and Freeman had successful and busy TV careers prior to The Hobbit. Also, interviews with Freeman, and RA indicate that there were offered their parts in The Hobbit back in 2009 because they talk about projects they were filming or scheduling issues.

GDT also stated in an interview a year or two before he got offered The Hobbit, that he hated fantasy. I think there is a lot of wishful thinking around GDT's Hobbit, titbits plucked from scant interviews, that were highly unlikely to reveal any real information, major film projects do not have directors and producers disclosing real info before a film is even greenlit. Casting names are often 'types' not actual choices.

No mascara can survive BOTFA

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