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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Do you think Del Toro's Hobbit would've been better?
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HOBBITFAN13
Lorien

May 31 2016, 6:09pm

Post #1 of 58 (2276 views)
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Do you think Del Toro's Hobbit would've been better? Can't Post

Guillermo Del Toro was supposed to direct the Hobbit. It originally was going to be two parts and it seemed like that the first film of the Hobbit of his would've been more magical and the second film would've been more going into the darker tone of The Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Even though PJ's Hobbit trilogy weren't bad films, they didn't get the great reception that LOTR did. Do you think Del Toro's Hobbit would've been better than Peter Jackson's?


Lindele
Gondor

May 31 2016, 6:21pm

Post #2 of 58 (2142 views)
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Considering that PJ's The Hobbit's [In reply to] Can't Post

biggest downfall was expectations...absolutely del toro's would've have been received better. There still would've been expectations but not the same.
I don't think that The Hobbit films we got would ever have been as acclaimed in their time as LOTR, even if LOTR didn't exist, but expectations are their number one downfall.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 31 2016, 6:38pm

Post #3 of 58 (2129 views)
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Not really [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen a few of his movies - I'll give him kudos for imagination, but "better?" No. "Different?" Certainly, but I've also no doubt that GdT's Hobbit would have the same amount of haters complaining about changes, styles, every little detail, etc. on this board that PJ gets. But yeah, it's safe to say that the Hobbit movies didn't quite rise to LoTR, mostly because they weren't the "first," and partially because of the myriad production problems. As for being better received, well I've seen GdT's "Crimson Peak," which I personally liked, but it was pretty panned by critics. So whether it would be better received is a crap-shoot - maybe, maybe not.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Darkstone
Immortal


May 31 2016, 7:28pm

Post #4 of 58 (2116 views)
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Possibly in one respect [In reply to] Can't Post

Like a lot of directors, Jackson likes to shoot a lot of film, then edit his material down to movie length. Since he's basically putting the final story together after the shoot, the result may sometimes seem a bit incoherent. (But that's what reshoots are for. If he has time.)

Like directors such as John Ford, Alfred Hitchcock, and Jean-Luc Godard, Del Toro likes to work out a rigorous storyboard, then shoot only what he needs to shoot. So in the editing room it's just a matter of sticking the pieces together. As a result the story is much tighter and coherent.

On the downside, since there is no leftover footage with Del Toro's technique, there's no material for an Extended Edition.

******************************************
"We’re orcs of the Misty Mountains,
Our singing’s part of canon.
We do routines and chorus scenes
While dancing with abandon.
We killed Isildur in the Gladden,
To help Sauron bring Armageddon!"

-From "Monty Python and the One Ring"


Brandybuckled
Lorien


May 31 2016, 7:45pm

Post #5 of 58 (2104 views)
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Possibly in another respect or two, too... [In reply to] Can't Post

GDT does creepy where PJ does grotesque.
GDT does humor, occasionally, but very rarely is it slapstick, and it stays within the tone of the scene.

Whether that makes either "better" is up to one's personal preference.

NAArP: Not An Ardent purist since Arda was dented



LSF
Gondor

May 31 2016, 8:55pm

Post #6 of 58 (2072 views)
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hard to judge a movie that does not exist... [In reply to] Can't Post

And all we know about how it could have been is snippets of information. But I wanted PJ to come back and do it, and that is what I got, which I am not at all disappointed with.

I enjoyed the 3 movies of GST's that I've seen well enough (Pan's Labyrinth, Hellboy 1 and 2), but I've never watched the Hellboys again and only watched Pan's Labyrinth twice. His work has had no impact on me. I'm not opposed to him doing Hobbit at some point in the future, but for now, I'm happy with PJ having done it.


LSF
Gondor

May 31 2016, 9:08pm

Post #7 of 58 (2066 views)
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not necessary... [In reply to] Can't Post

GDT wasn't doing this by himself. He had PJ as a producer and was in New Zealand working with the same team that PJ had used on LOTR. So people might have been expecting it to be similar to PJ's LOTR.


Avandel
Half-elven


May 31 2016, 9:34pm

Post #8 of 58 (2058 views)
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Ditto more or less [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
And all we know about how it could have been is snippets of information. But I wanted PJ to come back and do it, and that is what I got, which I am not at all disappointed with.


I'm not all that familiar with del Toro's work - re the Hobbit, just the snippets of information. As far as I know, del Toro HAD invested a lot of enthusiasm and energy into the Hobbit, and a while ago openly stated that he had never seen the Hobbit films. And I can understand that, completely. That's a lot to have had to walk away from, and then the films end up getting greenlit.

So I respect that and what I know of del Toro's vivid imagination. But. IMO if LOTR had good, sometimes great performances, and IMO the Hobbit had stellar performancesHeart, for me that's one thing. Because I wasn't taken, much, with the performances or cast in Pacific Rim. I didn't care, at all. E.g., in hindsight, although I think Martin Freeman had been cast? I'm not sure what kind of performances I would have seen without PJ & co. in control of the Hobbit casting.

Then there's the IMO vaguely steampunk? or IMO strange look to del Toro's Hobbit designs. For me it's not whether LOTR ever existed re a "consistent" look to ME, it's whether I'd believe in a Smaug that sort of looked like a bighorn sheep, to me. I mean, I'm happy with the wonderful look of the Hobbit we got, as opposed to (in hindsight) thinking "man, that was some trippy film!"

So I don't know if a del Toro Hobbit would be "better". Or "worse". Personally there are things about the Hobbit, and the cast, that IMO will never be done "better". Just "different". I may get some lines I would like to hear, one day, but it won't be (probably) the actor I want saying them (like Lee Pace). But right now I'm good with the Hobbit we have.

Until the uber-mega-extra long extended director cut comes out, anyway.WinkWinkWink


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 31 2016, 10:33pm

Post #9 of 58 (2050 views)
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Erm... [In reply to] Can't Post

granted, I haven't seen a lot of del Toro's work, but I'd say he has a pretty strong grotesque element to his work. Several things in Pan's Labyrinth would fall into that category for me.

I agree that PJ's humor does lean more toward slapstick.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




wizzardly
Rohan


May 31 2016, 11:22pm

Post #10 of 58 (2029 views)
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Did he plan to give all the dwarves beards? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jun 1 2016, 12:24am

Post #11 of 58 (2009 views)
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Because that, of course, is the MOST important thing [In reply to] Can't Post

Not set design, not casting, not Smaug or Gollum - only beard length matters.Crazy

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Omnigeek
Lorien


Jun 1 2016, 1:08am

Post #12 of 58 (1997 views)
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No, I don't [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm really not a fan of GDT's work and what I've seen of his plans indicates to me that he intended to take even more liberties with the story than PJ did. A lot of people forget that Tolkien's view of magic was more Scandanavian and natural worldish and less Harry Potteresque. Of course, GDT wouldn't have had the high expectations that PJ faced but you asked if his version would have been better, not more well-received.


Avandel
Half-elven


Jun 1 2016, 1:42am

Post #13 of 58 (1993 views)
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hirsuteness and the lack thereof.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Now there's an interviewEvil [that to my knowledge never happened, including by TORn's own staff]....

As far as I know only PJ & co. and Richard ever brought it up. Because, of course, they knew the material. So.....

This artist's interpretation of Thorin:



http://www.deviantart.com/...akenshield-610762131


Quote

After my last work It's not a secret that I dn't like the look of the dwarves from "The Hobbit" movie very much. But the image od Thorin Oakenshield was something that was killing me the most. I always imagined him as a grey bearded old ald remarkable badas
s


And we could have had.....




Problem being, FOR ME, is that either of these pictures causes (as Dean O'Gorman makes mention of in the WETA Chronicles books about dwarves) the word "cute" to start floating around in the back of my mind. Hairy squares - a part of me just wants to pick up and hug these guys!Tongue They're so, so, so WOOLLY. Like fluffy lambs.Cool

Then there WAS the Thorin with more beard.....



I think I had the AUJ discs before I even noticed. Yep, Thorin's got a longer beard. Yep. Yes, he does. Yes indeed.Cool




(Credit: Mirielofgisborne http://mirielofgisborne.deviantart.com/art/King-Thorin-571791336)

It's just, through 3 films and even watching the Appendices, I'm just not seeing where this ISN'T a badass dwarf. I mean, I was so freaked w. the DOS trailer when Thorin puts a sword to Bilbo. OMG. I don't ever remember thinking "you know, this scene would be just that much more perfect if only Thorin would grow his beard out..."Angelic


wizzardly
Rohan


Jun 1 2016, 2:40am

Post #14 of 58 (1975 views)
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Now that's a beard! [In reply to] Can't Post

If only they had hired that guy to design the dwarves. Instead we got PJ, the beard grinch.


Omnigeek
Lorien


Jun 1 2016, 3:14am

Post #15 of 58 (1968 views)
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Saw this in world chat on Lord of the Rings Online [In reply to] Can't Post

I usually ignore world chat but some goofball was acting like a cross-dressing dwarf queen and for some reason people mentioned the movies. One guy said "Thorin looked more like a Klingon than a Dwarf!" ...

Of course, he didn't have any ridges or enough of a tan to qualify for a Klingon but it was a funny comment ...


TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan


Jun 1 2016, 7:30am

Post #16 of 58 (1941 views)
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I've seen most of GDT's work [In reply to] Can't Post

And no. No, I don't believe it would be.

"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War

(This post was edited by TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense on Jun 1 2016, 7:31am)


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 1 2016, 8:49am

Post #17 of 58 (1926 views)
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I think it would have been different... [In reply to] Can't Post

How different I'm not sure, since Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens were still involved and there was meant to be a deliberate link between the two film adaptations.

But I don't see how anyone can say whether it would have been better. It might have been an exciting new take on Middle-earth. It might have moved too far from the original to satisfy an audience already captivated with the Middle-earth of Lord of the Rings. It might have moved too far from the book. As it never happened everyone is free to imagine an answer that suits their particular take on the films we did get.

As far as the reception goes, Peter Jackson's Hobbit was never going to receive the same reception as LotR because he was revisiting the same territory. First times only happen once.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Noria
Gondor

Jun 1 2016, 11:45am

Post #18 of 58 (1896 views)
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Guillermo del Toro’s Hobbit would have been very different, certainly visually. [In reply to] Can't Post

But I really doubt that I would have liked it more than PJ’s version. It might have been generally better received because of the different director. No “going back to the well” comments in the press.

I really wanted PJ to direct TH movies but was mollified when GdT was chosen as director because I liked the films of his that I had seen. Like Peter Jackson he has faith in his own artistic vision. But the more I hear about his ideas and designs, the happier I am that he dropped out. Some of them were pretty cool but I prefer Hobbit movies that better match the LotR trilogy. So I’m happy about the way things turned out.

Were there not one of two GdT fans who posted on this forum about TH movies but disappeared when GdT left? They might have preferred his version but I doubt that book purists would, given some of his ideas and designs. LotR movie fans like me might have found his approach too different.

But we’ll never know.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 1 2016, 1:36pm

Post #19 of 58 (1873 views)
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Different, certainly... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but better? That's too subjective to properly answer. I was left somewhat askance by GdT's ideas for Trolls in battle-armor that let them tuck themselves into balls like huge armadillos. I would, though, still love to see the 6-foot maquette of his Smaug that I've read about!

This might be close to his conception:




Quote
I paused at what looked like an image of a double-bitted medieval hatchet. “That’s Smaug,” del Toro said. It was an overhead view: “See, he’s like a flying axe.” Del Toro thinks that monsters should appear transformed when viewed from a fresh angle, lest the audience lose a sense of awe. Defining silhouettes is the first step in good monster design, he said. “Then you start playing with movement. The next element of design is color. And then finally—finally—comes detail. A lot of people go the other way, and just pile up a lot of detail.”

I turned to a lateral image of the dragon. Smaug’s body, as del Toro had imagined it, was unusually long and thin. The bones of its wings were articulated on the dorsal side, giving the creature a slithery softness across its belly. “It’s a little bit more like a snake,” he said. I thought of his big Russian painting. Del Toro had written that the beast would alight “like a water bird.”


2011 New Yorker interview: http://www.newyorker.com/.../07/show-the-monster

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 1 2016, 1:48pm)


Brandybuckled
Lorien


Jun 1 2016, 3:18pm

Post #20 of 58 (1856 views)
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Good point... [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps the difference is "looming creepy grotesque" (pale man) vs PJ's "spatter grotesque" ( http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/10/07/peter-jacksons-bloodsoaked-history )

NAArP: Not An Ardent purist since Arda was dented



Avandel
Half-elven


Jun 1 2016, 3:46pm

Post #21 of 58 (1847 views)
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I'm still relieved re Smaug tho.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps it's no different than a conception of a long-bearded Thorin w. a silver tassel on his hood - which apparently didn't register with meCool. But a vague look for Smaug certainly had in my own mind, at some point. Not the number of legs or size, exactly, but:




The long, sinuous body and snout, curled up on a bed of gold. Not:




A this time, too "Jurrasic Park" for meShocked. Not that I might not have enjoyed the film with DT as director , but I also might have been thinking "trippy"Unsure and probably only gone to the theaters once - maybe. How can you make guesses on something that never happened?Unsure

But someone will re-do the Hobbit and LOTR. Which I can happily watch, especially the Hobbit, because I have a version I loveHeart. So it will be all good IMO.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 1 2016, 3:57pm

Post #22 of 58 (1839 views)
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My own idea of Smaug... [In reply to] Can't Post

...certainly begins with Tolkien's own illustrations. I don't mind Weta's final design for the dragon; I just wish he wasn't quite so BIG compared to how Tolkien portrayed him.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"


Avandel
Half-elven


Jun 1 2016, 4:23pm

Post #23 of 58 (1834 views)
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But that statement says a lot IMO [In reply to] Can't Post

about how entrenched folks' minds can be...


Quote
"Thorin looked more like a Klingon than a Dwarf!" ...


Because it IMO inherently suggests that dwarves have a certain "look", and that in general at least Western civilization feels it has an inherent knowledge of "what dwarves look like", and as expressed in this statement, for some, there is a somewhat to strong negative reaction for that violation of "the should". No allowances are made for dwarves from different backgrounds, environments, etc.

Personally never thought about it either, but re the Appendices IMO the re-elevation of these "mythological races" through a visual medium - the elves, and now the dwarves - for me is something to be cheeredHeart. I was not so happy with Gimli's LOTR portrayal, as I never saw the book Gimli as a figure of fun.

But with Thorin and his heirs, Dwalin, Dain, Balin, Thror, Thrain, etc., as depicted, I can readily believe these beings fought brutal wars with elves, defied everyone, and built Erebor and
Khazad-dűm.



One of my favorite LOTR scenes, when Gandalf shows the grandeur of what had been.Heart

Didn't think about it, but re the Appendices in hindsight IMO Thorin needed to be someone I believed in, who had enough fire and will to
push across Middle Earth and take back a kingdom with a handful of followers.

Of course that's NOW. Since I was happy with the treatment. I suppose I would have been happy enough with a more whimsical group of dwarvesUnsure, but my whole perception wouldn't have been awe about Thorin, or the dwarves. I'm afraid the word "cute" would still have been floating around in my head.Unimpressed

Happily I think dwarves, as a result of the Hobbit films, will never be shown in movies w. the old stereotypes ever again. They may beUnsure. But PJ & co. I think have changed perceptions - again.



Avandel
Half-elven


Jun 1 2016, 4:29pm

Post #24 of 58 (1837 views)
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I liked the bigness.... [In reply to] Can't Post

For myself...the whole effect of Smaug lifting his head, just DOMINATING spaceHeart -



Love this scene. Loved Smaug and his expressiveness. I was sorry when he died.Cool


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 1 2016, 6:40pm

Post #25 of 58 (1813 views)
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Yes, absolutely.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and that screenshot is one of my favourite moments in all three films. (Mind you, I do have a LOT of favourite moments....)

But for me the scale of Peter Jackson's imagination is one of the things that brought real visual magic to the filmed version of Middle-earth. When I try to re-imagine the 'Inside information' scenes with a Smaug the size of Tolkien's illustration it becomes tame and disappointing. A dragon that size breaking through the entrance to the Lonely Mountain wouldn't be nearly as awe-inspiring: it would be hard to believe that all those dwarves really could do nothing to stop him. And that isn't a criticism of the book, because a reader's imagination isn't tied to the illustrations in a book. It draws more on the emotions you feel when reading - the illustrations are just a jumping-off point.

The contrast for me is the difference between my reaction to each of Peter Jackson's Middle-earth films and my reaction to the film of Philip Pullman 'Northern Lights' (aka 'The Golden Compass'). I came away from each of PJ's films excited by a vision of Tolkien's world that was much bigger than anything I'd dared to imagine. But on film Svalbard and Bolvanger - all the settings of Philip Pullman's story were much smaller than I'd imagined and that was disappointing.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .

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