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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
In The End
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wizzardly
Rohan


May 30 2016, 4:03pm

Post #51 of 117 (865 views)
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sure [In reply to] Can't Post

You asked how I felt about Bakshi's LotR. That was a scene I felt he did better than PJ.


wizzardly
Rohan


May 30 2016, 4:06pm

Post #52 of 117 (869 views)
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perhaps not [In reply to] Can't Post

But it didn't make me nauseous like PJ's love story.


Omnigeek
Lorien


May 30 2016, 4:58pm

Post #53 of 117 (850 views)
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I wouldn't say the beards were most important [In reply to] Can't Post

I raise the issue of beardless dwarves continually because it really IS a pretty trivial point but also shows just how much people willing to rationalize and ignore in their defense of PJ's version of "The Hobbit".

I DO find the Rankin/Bass production was far superior in terms of maintaining the storyline and feel even if it had to excise portions of the story in order to keep to the network-mandated time limit. Yes, the Rankin/Bass movie had its problems -- not the least of which were the ugly Elves and froGollum -- but the script kept or adapted the best lines and preserved the essence of the story while alluding to its context in a larger story at the end. The voice acting was superb. I didn't like how they started An Unexpected Party or finished the Battle of Five Armies but most of the rest of it was spot-on and they didn't add tons of unnecessary extra bits.

There is a real skill in trimming a novel down to 77 minutes of screen time without losing essential parts of the story, more so anyway than expanding the same novel (plus assorted appendices) to 474 minutes of screen time. I think Romeo Muller did a far better job with his script than PJ/FW/PB/GDT did with theirs. On the other hand, the additional screen time did give Martin Freeman more time to flesh out Bilbo even if all the other additional plotlines detracted and distracted somewhat.


wizzardly
Rohan


May 30 2016, 5:36pm

Post #54 of 117 (836 views)
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The Beards [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose in a way its good that PJ's dwarves look nothing like Tolkien's dwarves. It makes it easier to not associate this disaster with the book.


wizzardly
Rohan


May 30 2016, 5:41pm

Post #55 of 117 (835 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

The voice acting was very well done in the Rankin/Bass Hobbit. And I also appreciate the effort they made to incorporate Tolkien's poems and songs by creating music to go with his lyrics. Because like it or not,the elves do sing "A tra la la lally". Wink


lionoferebor
Rohan


May 30 2016, 5:58pm

Post #56 of 117 (824 views)
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I'd have to go with the frog-like elves too... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not crazy about the frog-like elves - nor am I crazy about the R&B adaptation - but unlike the "love story" I am not overwhelmed by the irresistible urge to walk out the room or fast forward to the next scene when they appear on screen.


dormouse
Half-elven


May 30 2016, 6:35pm

Post #57 of 117 (814 views)
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Ii've still to see a beardless dwarf.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and I've watched the films many times. Perhaps you could provide an example?

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Omnigeek
Lorien


May 30 2016, 6:39pm

Post #58 of 117 (809 views)
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Kili [In reply to] Can't Post

Kili sports a five-o-clock shadow, NOT a beard. In the nearly beardless category, Fili and others have goatees or van Dykes, not a beard envisioned for Tolkienesque dwarves until PJ's version of these movies, and I don't recall any illustration before that had Thorin's locks drop lower than his beard.

You can certainly say you prefer the artistic appeal in these renditions but to claim Kili had a beard ... really ...


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 30 2016, 6:45pm

Post #59 of 117 (807 views)
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Bombur [In reply to] Can't Post

Bombur might have the oddest 'beard' of all time.



And then there is Kili's beard which is little more that five-o'clock shadow.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"


wizzardly
Rohan


May 30 2016, 6:53pm

Post #60 of 117 (801 views)
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"O! Where are you going...With beards all a-wagging?" [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think you could get Kili, Fili, or even Thorin's beard to wag if you threw them outside in a category 5 hurricane.

Even if said hurricane ripped Kili's head clean off his shoulders and it traveled through the air, I don't think that would even qualify as "wagging".


(This post was edited by wizzardly on May 30 2016, 6:56pm)


Noria
Gondor

May 30 2016, 7:46pm

Post #61 of 117 (781 views)
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I actually agree with Wizzardly [In reply to] Can't Post

that the Bakshi Flight to the Ford scene was quite good, at least as good as PJ’s. At least that’s what I remember; I haven’t seen that movie for decades but one thing thing I remember liking.

I don’t suppose there is anything else we will ever agree on, especially the RB Hobbit, which IMO is a fine example of fidelity to the text producing nothing worth experiencing.

As for the Dwarves’ beards, no rationalization is necessary on my part because I just don’t care about them.


Noria
Gondor

May 30 2016, 9:05pm

Post #62 of 117 (763 views)
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If PJ had planned to direct from the start, [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe that the Hobbit movies would be much the same, though they might have been structured a little differently if the three movie decision movie had been made in the beginning. The heavy-handed comedy relief, sight-gags and action sequences for their own sake of which you speak are in the movies because PJ likes that sort of stuff, just as he did when making LotR. That is who he is, at least in part. The Hobbit, being lighter and more comedic in itself in some ways and lacking the gravitas of LotR, lent itself to his predilections even more than LotR.

I don’t agree with every choice PJ made in either trilogy but I accept that they were his to make because he and his partners were tasked with adapting the novels to the screen. Few people are going to like every one of their decisions. You expected more fidelity to the history and geography of Tolkien’s written world which is fair enough. But in LotR PJ played fast and loose with history, lineages, timelines and geography, so I was not shocked by any deviations from book canon in those areas.

It seems like every book/movie fan has an individual and unique line of purism/fidelity (whatever you want to call it), that once crossed makes the movies unacceptable and unlikable to that person. My personal line was not crossed.


dormouse
Half-elven


May 30 2016, 9:41pm

Post #63 of 117 (753 views)
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Kili has a beard [In reply to] Can't Post

It's short, I grant you, but I don't believe that anyone looking at Aidan Turner (or any other man with the same arrangment of facial hair) would call him clean-shaven. If it weren't for the fact that he's playing a Tolkien dwarf and people have preconceived ideas of what a Tolkien dwarf should look like I don't believe we'd be having this conversation at all.


This has nothing to do with Peter Jackson or the films. If I were to see a man who looked like that committing a crime and had to give a description I'd say he had a very short beard.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .

(This post was edited by dormouse on May 30 2016, 9:42pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


May 30 2016, 9:47pm

Post #64 of 117 (750 views)
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Actually, yes.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that's a much better choice than Kili because as you've just said, Kili does have a beard. Technically Bombur has extremely long sideburns arranged into a sort of mock beard - but then, shouldn't we be giving him Brownie points because he could tuck them into his belt if he felt so inclined - and they do certainly wag! Wink

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .

(This post was edited by dormouse on May 30 2016, 9:47pm)


wizzardly
Rohan


May 30 2016, 9:53pm

Post #65 of 117 (738 views)
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I'm almost willing to give Bombur a pass on the fact that if you squint you can almost imagine he has a proper beard. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan


May 30 2016, 9:54pm

Post #66 of 117 (739 views)
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"Most importantly of all, the dwarves all have beards." [In reply to] Can't Post

And that, ladies and gentlemen, encapsulates why I stand where I stand on this adherence to the text business. Like what works for you, dislike what doesn't, but this is perfectly ridiculous.

"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 30 2016, 9:57pm

Post #67 of 117 (737 views)
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Lines, crossed and uncrossed [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It seems like every book/movie fan has an individual and unique line of purism/fidelity (whatever you want to call it), that once crossed makes the movies unacceptable and unlikable to that person. My personal line was not crossed.


I would not say that I found the Hobbit films unacceptable; for one thing, I wouldn't have purchased the extended edition Blu-ray discs if I had. But I do admit to finding elements of them to be disappointing. I do find disconcerting such things as a moon that goes from a bit past new to full in a matter of hours (and moves to the north of the sky!).

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 30 2016, 10:00pm)


wizzardly
Rohan


May 30 2016, 10:05pm

Post #68 of 117 (731 views)
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A dwarf without a beard is like a hobbit without hair on its feet...uncharacteristic [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 30 2016, 11:17pm

Post #69 of 117 (717 views)
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I wouldn't say they are important at all [In reply to] Can't Post

In fact, I really don't care about beard-length, and really don't get why that bugs some people so much. It's not "rationalizing," or mounting a "defense," I just simply like the movies much more than you apparently, and don't think the beard length is important.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 30 2016, 11:20pm

Post #70 of 117 (723 views)
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I said before and I'll say it again [In reply to] Can't Post

I really don't care about the beard length, or whether Hobbits have enough hair on their feet. These details are, IMO, so trivial that they just don't matter.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan


May 31 2016, 2:36am

Post #71 of 117 (704 views)
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Bingo. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War


Omnigeek
Lorien


May 31 2016, 2:55am

Post #72 of 117 (709 views)
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No, he doesn't [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin has a short beard. Dori has a short beard. What Kili sports isn't a beard by any stretch of the imagination, much less a dwarven beard. It's more than a five-o-clock shadow for me but about what one of my Sicilian friends in college would have by 3 PM. It's amazing just how far some people are willing to distend definitions or the text in order to avoid conceding even the smallest deviation in these films.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 31 2016, 4:42am

Post #73 of 117 (699 views)
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This is [In reply to] Can't Post

a disagreement about definitions and opinions. Don't take it into personal comment territory.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan


May 31 2016, 5:04am

Post #74 of 117 (689 views)
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I haven't and won't avoid admitting a deviation [In reply to] Can't Post

Many deviations from the text were made and one of them is definitely shorter beards. What is happening here is some people on these boards (including myself) do not care if there are deviations of this sort, as they are irrelevant to the plot and themes of both the novel and the film and their respective aims.

It's hair or somewhat less hair. That's it.

"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War

(This post was edited by TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense on May 31 2016, 5:06am)


dormouse
Half-elven


May 31 2016, 8:00am

Post #75 of 117 (675 views)
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This will be my final comment on the subject of hirsute dwarves.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ever!

When I look at Kili I see a short beard. I'd see the same beard if I hated the film - but I wouldn't be saying that it ruined the film for me. The dwarves all have beards and for me that's good enough.

Your comments on my opinion are noted and rejected.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .

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