|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 28 2016, 8:04am
Post #1 of 22
(3983 views)
Shortcut
|
|
**LotR V.8, The Houses of Healing** 4. ‘But the Lady Éowyn was yet living when they bore her hither.'
|
Can't Post
|
|
Healing of Eowyn by Greg and Tim Hildebrandt
Éomer last saw his King and his sister lying on the field of battle, dead. Mad with grief, he stormed off, crying Death! Death! ...but what he found was actually help, in the form of Aragorn an a host from Pelargir. With Aragorn and Prince Imrahil, he entered Minas Tirith and sought the bodies of his King and sister. Théoden was found in the Hall of the Tower, lying in state surrounded by torches.
But Éomer said: ‘Where is the Lady Éowyn, my sister; for surely she should be lying beside the king, and in no less honour? Where have they bestowed her?’
And Imrahil said: ‘But the Lady Éowyn was yet living when they bore her hither. Did you not know?’
Then hope unlooked-for came so suddenly to Éomer’s heart, and with it the bite of care and fear renewed, that he said no more, but turned and went swiftly from the hall; and the Prince followed him.
1. The "bite of care and fear renewed"? You mean he's more anxious, not joyous?
A second eucatastrophe for Éomer, on a very difficult day. He follows Imrahil, Aragorn, and Gandalf as they heal Faramir, and then move to his beloved sister. Aragorn the healer observes that the broken arm (her shield arm) has been appropriately treated, but her sword arm, which struck down a Fell Beast and the Witch King himself, appears dead, though it is unbroken. But it's not the immediate situation that's at the forefront of their minds, but its motivation.
What Éomer is saying is: "My sister was driven to a suicidal effort by your rejection."
How many of you have been in Aragorn's position, of having to deny the love of someone who is a very fine person, but just not The One? Is he guilty as charged?
Gandalf attempts to steer the conversation to a broader understanding, but Aragorn responds directly to Éomer's accusation.
2. How do you weigh Éowyn's suffering under the Grima regime vs. a major infatuation with Aragorn vs. physical/spiritual poison of the Witch King? What was her greatest problem?
3. How many of you have been in the position of having to spurn the love of an otherwise wonderful person? From your perspective, how do you rate Aragorn's handling of this situation?
Aragorn calls her, and does his athelas thing. It appears to be working. But Aragorn's prognosis is guarded: ‘I have, maybe, the power to heal her body, and to recall her from the dark valley. But to what she will awake: hope, or forgetfulness, or despair, I do not know. And if to despair, then she will die, unless other healing comes which I cannot bring. Alas! for her deeds have set her among the queens of great renown.’
Darkstone has attributed Black Breath almost entirely to PTSD, and makes a persuasive argument. But dying for love is an old tradition, itself.
4. In Éowyn's case, how do you compare the effects of PTSD vs. thwarted love vs. long-term depression (Gandalf's diagnosis)?
Although Aragorn does call her back from her dark place, he is careful to ensure that her hand is in Éomer's, and her sight will be focussed on him when she awakens.
5. In a later chapter, Faramir will observe that, in their healing, "the same voice called us back." Will she actually remember this? How much will she remember about Aragorn's role in her healing?
6. We often read of patients who are unconscious or in a coma who later report having heard what the healers were saying. How much of this conversation is Éowyn likely to have heard on some level?
As she awakes, and converses with her brother, one of Éowyn's first thoughts is for Merry. And what
of the king’s esquire, the Halfling? Éomer, you shall make him a knight of the Riddermark, for he is valiant!’
7. How much does she actually know about what Merry did? Could she have seen his strike on Wiki? Or is it just his "being there"?
Next: The visible Hobbit.
|
|
|
InTheChair
Rohan
May 28 2016, 7:26pm
Post #2 of 22
(3919 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Guess I'll jump in first again. Must be the right timezone for this chapter.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
1. The "bite of care and fear renewed"? You mean he's more anxious, not joyous?
Not how I took it to mean. Only that learning she may still be alive he became anxious to see her, for he knew she was so wounded that they thought her dead.
Gandalf attempts to steer the conversation to a broader understanding, but Aragorn responds directly to Éomer's accusation.
The sequence may be a little to much by the numbers. Eomer puts it on Aragorn, but Gandalf says no, it started long before and she longs for glory for the house of Eorl and herself. Eowyn upon waking up swiftly confirms that Gandalfs words are correct. Why Gandalf should be so adept at reading a woman I do not know, but perhaps some 1000 years of living the world means he aquires such a skill. It all falls a little too neatly into place.
2. How do you weigh Éowyn's suffering under the Grima regime vs. a major infatuation with Aragorn vs. physical/spiritual poison of the Witch King? What was her greatest problem?
She longed for something else, and in Aragorn saw a chance to get that. His rejection would seem like a hard blow, but this is not what she talks about on waking up.
Funny statement uttered by Aragorn btw.
For she is a fair maiden, fairest lady in a house of Queens.
Wonder if Eomer cringed at that?
5. In a later chapter, Faramir will observe that, in their healing, "the same voice called us back." Will she actually remember this? How much will she remember about Aragorn's role in her healing?
I think she must have, like Faramir did, and Merry too. She more than the other two kept her feeling about it to herself.
7. How much does she actually know about what Merry did? Could she have seen his strike on Wiki? Or is it just his "being there"?
She would have known it. He calls out to her. Not in direct line of sight perhaps since Merry came in from behind for a backstab, but she may have seen Merry come crawling in, and certainly heard the effects of the stab and the Hobbit crying out to her.
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 28 2016, 9:26pm
Post #3 of 22
(3905 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Why Gandalf should be so adept at reading a woman I do not know, but perhaps some 1000 years of living the world means he aquires such a skill. It all falls a little too neatly into place.
He comes to this skill naturally. Before he was sent to Middle Earth, Gandalf lived in Valinor as the Maia Olórin. He spent much time with Nienna, the Vala (goddess) of sorrow, and of her he learned pity and patience. Of Nienna, the Valaquenta says, But she does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope. Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 28 2016, 9:59pm
Post #4 of 22
(3904 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Éowyn wakes: to health, maybe. To hope? I do not know.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I think her situation is very much what she is talking about. She is still focused on dying in battle. She is too proud to speak of the man who spurned her (and whom she still thinks she loves), but I think there is no reason to believe her feelings have changed at all.
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
May 29 2016, 2:28am
Post #5 of 22
(3904 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I swat them away on a regular basis
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
1. The "bite of care and fear renewed"? You mean he's more anxious, not joyous?
Well, sure – she’s not alive and well, she’s just alive – he gets immediately that her life is still in danger. Thus rather than joy at her being alive, he feels “care and fear” that she may yet die, which he had not felt when, for all his grief, he believed her dead and beyond care.
Without seriously questioning Tolkien’s choices of where to focus and why, I’ve often wondered how much of Eomer’s (and Imrahil’s and Aragorn’s) minds were on the dead and wounded of their many subcommanders and assorted battle units, rather than on (exclusively, as the story has it) the survival of Faramir, Eowyn, and Merry.
Part of the antiquarian nature of The Lord of the Rings is also its charm, given that it’s fantasy in the real meaning of the term. But boy is this a top-down story. Aristocrats embrace other aristocrats - plus a few noble commoners of high birth and worth – and everyone else is the equivalent of a ‘red shirt’ (to use a post-Tolkien term for easily disposably casualty) or less.
1.5. How many of you have been in Aragorn's position, of having to deny the love of someone who is a very fine person, but just not The One? Is he guilty as charged?
This happens to me all the time – or rather, it did when I was young, handsome, sexy, and well-favored.
Actually, not really. Although I could hardly deny it happens, I wonder if the whole concept of “noble soul must reject unwanted love of another, because noble soul is devoted to absent but dearly loved third party” is more of a literary construct (one that speaks to female readers more than male, I’d guess) than a commonplace in the annals of the War of the Sexes.
In any case, Aragorn is certainly not guilty of driving Eowyn to suicidal self-destruction in battle. Aragorn is, frankly, not guilty of anything, ever.
2. How do you weigh Éowyn's suffering under the Grima regime vs. a major infatuation with Aragorn vs. physical/spiritual poison of the Witch King? What was her greatest problem?
I will follow the text on this one: her greatest problem was watching the decline of Theoden and Rohan under Grima’s influence – as Gandalf makes clear to Eomer in his extended speech. But this actually begs the question. As both Aragorn and Gandalf agree, Eowyn has “in the body of a maid, … a spirit and courage at least the match of” Eomer’s or any other male Rider’s.
This is the ultimate paradox of Eowyn: how did she fail to be socialized to accept a woman’s subordinate position in the male-dominated warrior culture of Rohan? “Shield-maiden” is a term with no meaning if she is the only one, and we are given no indication that she is anything but the only one. What will give her the peace of accepting a woman’s role in a man’s world? Aragorn perceives that that remains an open question, whether or not he heals her of the Witch-king’s soul-poison. And in fact (as we will see) only the Return of the King, and the renewal of the Fourth Age as an age of fertility, peace, and new growth, will reconcile Eowyn to a female role as healer, nurse, and nurturer rather than as defender, warrior, and heroine.
3. How many of you have been in the position of having to spurn the love of an otherwise wonderful person? From your perspective, how do you rate Aragorn's handling of this situation?
Answered above (see 1.5).
4. In Éowyn's case, how do you compare the effects of PTSD vs. thwarted love vs. long-term depression (Gandalf's diagnosis)?
Again, as above (see 2), I think long-term depression is the real problem. I know that PTSD has become the go-to term for battle shock or battle fatigue, but just as I don’t think “addiction” is the best term for thinking about Gollum’s relationship to the Ring, because it pulls us out of the story and into the 20th century, so I think that PTSD approaches glibness in explaining the Black Magical nature of the Black Breath. The enemy in our own world’s wars, from either side’s perspective, simply isn’t the diabolical Evil that Sauron and his wraiths represent.
5. In a later chapter, Faramir will observe that, in their healing, "the same voice called us back." Will she actually remember this? How much will she remember about Aragorn's role in her healing?
This is out of nowhere, but I believe it’s Faramir’s words that tell Eowyn who cured her. And by then she’s gotten enough of a grip to realize that, in fact, Aragorn was “only a shadow and a thought” of glory in a far-away field. We see this when she asks his blessing on her love for Faramir (later chapter) and he gladly gives it.
6. We often read of patients who are unconscious or in a coma who later report having heard what the healers were saying. How much of this conversation is Éowyn likely to have heard on some level?
Whoo. Very hard to answer. Tolkien wrote from a combination of his own experience and life story in the early 20th century, and of his understanding of myth, romance, and fantasy. I think we sometimes work too hard to put everything he wrote into a context that fits his own real-life experience (and yes, I’m guilty of it as often as not!). Here, I don’t think there’s anything to be gained from imagining Eowyn overhearing the extended discussion of her psyche and emotional state.
7. How much does she actually know about what Merry did? Could she have seen his strike on Wiki? Or is it just his "being there"?
As already noted, it seems she must have been aware of his hamstringing the Nazgul, not to mention his calling out her name as he did it. Her charge to Eomer to knight Merry only makes sense in context of her full knowledge of his bravery at the crucial moment.
What I find odd is her reference to him as the “King’s esquire”. Merry was accepted into Theoden’s service, to be sure. But was he ever really the ‘esquire’ to Theoden? What is Eowyn saying, really?
And regarding your choice of illustration: the Brothers Hildebrandt rejoiced in their command of painted light. This is one of their best in this regard - for all the silliness of the poses, props, and motivation of the light itself. Tim and Dim strike again!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
|
|
|
enanito
Rohan
May 29 2016, 2:43am
Post #6 of 22
(3888 views)
Shortcut
|
I had always assumed that Gandalf had made prior visits to Edoras and seen a trajectory of Eowyn throughout her life, allowing him to see her as a young girl, transitioning into womanhood, becoming a shieldmaiden, then taking on the cares of her uncle as he fell under the sway of Saruman's deceits.
Unlike Aragorn who I'm not sure had the same amount of contact with the Rohirrim, and thus wouldn't have personally seen Eowyn's development.
Maybe the timelines don't work or I just assumed something there's no textual basis for, but that's why Gandalf's statement about Eowyn's troubles beginning long before, didn't seem out-of-place to me.
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 29 2016, 4:41am
Post #7 of 22
(3878 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Aragorn lived there for a time...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
..., but it was before Eowyn and Eomer were born. He spoke the language fluently, and even knew that wonderful poem. But Gandalf had been visiting frequently in more recent times, and had much more exposure to the current court and family dynamic.
|
|
|
No One in Particular
Lorien
May 29 2016, 4:52am
Post #8 of 22
(3880 views)
Shortcut
|
I had always assumed that Gandalf had made prior visits to Edoras and seen a trajectory of Eowyn throughout her life, allowing him to see her as a young girl, transitioning into womanhood, becoming a shieldmaiden, then taking on the cares of her uncle as he fell under the sway of Saruman's deceits. Unlike Aragorn who I'm not sure had the same amount of contact with the Rohirrim, and thus wouldn't have personally seen Eowyn's development.
Yup. Gandalf had been to Edoras before; Grima even makes mention in passing of previous visits (when he is dismissive of Gandalf and his companions, calling him the most beggar like of the lot), so it is not only possible, but probable that Gandalf had seen Eowyn before; whereas the text states that Aragorn only became aware of her for the first time after Gandalf heals Theoden. While it seems improbable that Aragorn has not been to Rohan since before Eowyn was born, is seems slightly more possible that he journeyed in Rohan, but came never to Edoras itself while Eowyn was growing up there.
As to "the bite of care renewed", Eomer thought she was dead. She was beyond all care, gone to the long home of their fathers. He had lost everything; his cousin and fellow soldier Theodred, his surrogate father Theoden, and now his sister. Then, beyond all hope, he finds out that one of his family is still alive, but grievously wounded-no wonder he makes a run for the Healers.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 29 2016, 5:10am
Post #9 of 22
(3879 views)
Shortcut
|
|
According to the Tale of Years...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
...from TA2957-2980 "Aragorn undertakes his great journeys and errantries. As Thorongil he serves in disguise both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor." He was 26 at the start of this period. In 2980, when he was 51, he met Arwen in Lorien, and they became betrothed. Eowyn was born in 2995.
We don't know much about Aragorn's activities after 2980, but assume he was concentrating on his Ranger career protecting areas in the north, including the Shire. He was involved, with Gandalf, in the hunt for Gollum off and on, although that seems to have been more centered around the Anduin, Mirkwood, and areas near Mordor. It's certainly possible that part of that would be in the East Emnet, but probably not involving the court.
|
|
|
InTheChair
Rohan
May 29 2016, 7:46am
Post #10 of 22
(3871 views)
Shortcut
|
We know from LotRs itself that Gandalf went to Edoras after his escape from Orthanc and advised the king, and also asked for a horse, which I though was the basis of Grimas accusations. It's possible he had been there more times after Eowyns birth, but never mentioned. She was born 2995. Gandalf tells at the counsil that 17 years ago he spent a long time searching the wilderness and the borders of Mordor for Gollum. Then he went swiftly to Minas Tirith and looked through the scrolls, and then hearing word of Gollums capture went back to Mirkwood for Q&A session with Gollum. No timeframe is given for these events, so they may have left opportunity for him to go visit Edoras as well, but if not his previous exp with Eowyn would be her as a 5 year old.
(This post was edited by InTheChair on May 29 2016, 7:47am)
|
|
|
Kimi
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 29 2016, 9:15am
Post #11 of 22
(3869 views)
Shortcut
|
were Theoden's words to Merry, back in "The Passing of the Grey Company":
'It is not as I would have it,' said Théoden; 'for this is little like my fair house in Edoras.... But come now! Eat and drink, and let us speak together while we may. And then you shall ride with me.'
'May I?' said Merry.... 'I am afraid I am only in everybody's way,' he stammered; 'but I should like to do anything I could, you know.'
'I doubt it not,' said the king. 'I have had a good hill-pony made ready for you. He will bear you as swift as any horse by the roads that we shall take. For I will ride from the Burg by mountain paths, not by the plain, and so come to Edoras by way of Dunharrow where the Lady Éowyn awaits me. You shall be my esquire, if you will. Is there gear of war in this place, Éomer, that my sword-thain could use?' ....
'I have a sword,' said Merry.... 'May I lay the sword of Meriadoc of the Shire on your lap Théoden King?' he cried. 'Receive my service, if you will!'
'Gladly will I take it,' said the king; and laying his long old hands upon the brown hair of the hobbit; he blessed him. 'Rise now, Meriadoc, esquire of Rohan of the household of Meduseld!' he said. 'Take your sword and bear it unto good fortune!'
'As a father you shall be to me,' said Merry.
'For a little while,' said Théoden.
The Passing of Mistress Rose
My historical novels
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
May 29 2016, 10:09am
Post #13 of 22
(3876 views)
Shortcut
|
Three men talk about a woman - something that can and perhaps should attract feminist criticism (why cannot Eowyn speak for herself?) But I think I can see why that wouldn't work in this story.
I have been reading Eowyn as a private person and a somewhat proud one Additionally many of her miseries have been caused by matters of state - the decline of a king, the marriage prospects of a princess, her personal plans to use her abilities as she feels is best in the war. It seems perfectly reasonable that she has not been opening up to other characters. Indeed, I think her isolation is an important part of her sub-plot. I also think we are left to infer a lot about Eowyn's motivations - she doesn't not speak much, except to Aragorn, and there she forcefully makes her case for what she wants, but does not (and the feelins we assume she has for Aragorn cannot) explain why. So I see the need for Tolkien to give us an update on Eowyn's motives for readers who have not inferred it all, and I see the difficulty of getting Eowyn to do that for herself.
Tolkien's solution also achieves other necessary things. We get Aragorn's side of the story (we've had to infer that too), and we understand why Aragorn and Eomer's relationship doesn't now founder.
I'd never thought of the idea that Eowyn might be able to hear what is being said. If she could, I would think it would bring her a lot of solace. Some of her misery has been due to feeling neither loved nor respected. But clearly she is both dearly loved (though not romantically) and greatly respected - by all three speakers. I note that there is great admiration for her courage and ability on the battlefield. I wanted to note that because I have read the suggestion that Tolkien intends to show warrior Eowyn as an insane abberation on the men-only battlefield, who needs to be put back in her suitable feminine place. For example:
And in the end, her fighting, her defiance, is presented as unnatural. She’s a delicate and beautiful lily, warped by necessity, and as soon as she sets eyes on Faramir, “her heart changes.” She declares that she will be a shieldmaiden no longer, and instead dedicate herself to being a healer — a far more suitable female pursuit. It’s almost as though she fought the Witch King because the legend needed someone weak and otherwise unlikely to do it (after all, no MAN can kill him), because the world was wrong and it needed something similarly wrong to do it, something that left Eowyn utterly broken and scarred and as hard as steel. And once the world is healed, she can heal too, and be the womanly figure she was always supposed to be. 'How The Lord Of The Rings Broke My heart ' by 'Rhiannnon' http://feministfiction.com/...ings-broke-my-heart/
I don't see that myself, from how this section of the chapter goes - rather, 'her deeds have set her among the queens of great renown' and so forth.
If Eowyn is meant to 'mean' anything (about Tolkien's views on women or on anything else) I prefer this analysis:
Only when the interpretation of her character is broadened, from one based solely on her gender to one that encompasses her whole humanity, can Eowyn be compared to the male characters around her—a comparison which is necessary, since there are no women in the book of equivalent stature to compare her to ("woman" being interpreted as human and female). One must consider the personalities, choices, and fates of the men in The Lord of the Rings, not only to discover the ultimate theme Tolkien is trying to express in the story, but also to determine whether or not he holds Eowyn to a different standard than her male counterparts. Only then does a clear pattern begin to emerge: those characters who believe they are entitled to additional power and glory are thwarted and struck down, while those characters who believe they are not worthy of it are rewarded with the very glory they do not think they deserve. ... Eowyn is, quite simply, the personification of this struggle between ambition and self-sacrifice. ...After Eowyn is brought back from the brink of death by Aragorn’s healing powers, she still cannot heal totally, either physically or psychologically, until this conflict of being is resolved. At this point, Eowyn meets Faramir, who is also healing from an injury and cannot join the battle at the Black Gate of Mordor, Sauron’s realm. Faramir’s gentle humility is the perfect contrast to Eowyn’s fierce pride, and as the two grow closer, she begins to see her own error, particularly in her longing to be Aragorn’s bride, the Queen of Gondor. Once she has rejected her devouring ambition, she inevitably accepts the love of Faramir, not as a second choice, but as an ideal partner in a relationship built on equality. She also rejects her status as a warrior, choosing to become a "healer" instead—a vocation which is not as stereotypically "feminine" as it might seem, for Aragorn proves himself to be the heir to the throne of Gondor by fulfilling the old prophesy that "the hands of the king shall be the hands of a healer." 'My Essay on Eowyn and Feminism, if you're interested (LONG) :)' by 'antigone382' http://www.democraticunderground.com/...&address=279x417 ['antigone382's essay is well worth reading in full, I deem...]
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
May 29 2016, 10:20am
Post #14 of 22
(3864 views)
Shortcut
|
I too feel reluctant to diagnose Eowyn and Faramir's ailments in modern terms (though I don't at all mean to dissuade anyone who would like to do that). It works for me just to leave it that the Witch KIng is so evil that to oppose him does some sort of spiritual harm, which is manifested physically. It makes sense to me in a non- analytical way!
Yes - I think it's significant that while Aragorn can cure Eowyn, he cannot 'call her back' It's Eomer who can do that, and for the reasons that Gandalf implies (that it is Eomer whom Eowyn truly loves.
I agree with all the others that Eowyn knows exactly what Merry did. Apart from anything else, I'd assume that warriors are trained to keep using their peripheral vision in a fight. The natural thing for a person to do in a fight is to get tunnel-vision focused at their immediate threat. The witch king is a case in point of what can then happen to you.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
|
|
|
Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 29 2016, 1:23pm
Post #15 of 22
(3850 views)
Shortcut
|
Then hope unlooked-for came so suddenly to Éomer’s heart, and with it the bite of care and fear renewed, that he said no more, but turned and went swiftly from the hall; and the Prince followed him.
1. The "bite of care and fear renewed"? You mean he's more anxious, not joyous?
Taking the sentence as a whole Tolkien is showing the range of emotions that Eomer has gone through and is going through. Hope unlooked-for gives Eomer a momentary but short elation of ‘joy’ as he thought his sister was dead. Then the bite of care and fear renewed shows us that he realizes she may yet die and he quickly (anxiously) leaves for the Houses of Healing.
Darkstone has attributed Black Breath almost entirely to PTSD, and makes a persuasive argument. But dying for love is an old tradition, itself. How did (the overused acronym) PTSD affect Merry as he fell to the ground from the Black Breath way back in Bree?
4. In Éowyn's case, how do you compare the effects of PTSD vs. thwarted love vs. long-term depression (Gandalf's diagnosis)?
I’ve never equated PTSD with thwarted love or conventional (for lack of a word) depression, but with the horror and gore of war.
"I never said most of the things I said."
- Yogi & Me
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 29 2016, 1:57pm
Post #16 of 22
(3848 views)
Shortcut
|
...from TA2957-2980 "Aragorn undertakes his great journeys and errantries. As Thorongil he serves in disguise both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor." He was 26 at the start of this period. In 2980, when he was 51, he met Arwen in Lorien, and they became betrothed. Eowyn was born in 2995.
We don't know much about Aragorn's activities after 2980, but assume he was concentrating on his Ranger career protecting areas in the north, including the Shire. He was involved, with Gandalf, in the hunt for Gollum off and on, although that seems to have been more centered around the Anduin, Mirkwood, and areas near Mordor. It's certainly possible that part of that would be in the East Emnet, but probably not involving the court.
Aragorn was forty-nine years old when he came to Lothlórien in TA 2980, not fifty-one.
We have few details about Aragorn's travels during this period. He seems to have made his first journeys to the distant South and far East before he (as Thorongil) entered into the service of King Thengel of Rohan. We don't know how long this errantry lasted, but after Aragorn left Rohan he came to Gondor and served under the Steward Ecthelion II. As Elizabeth states, 'Thorongil' leaves Gondor in 2980 after leading a successful raid on the Corsair fleet at Umbar. He spends some time in the Mountains of Shadow spying out the activities of the Dark Lord, and before the end of that year Aragorn comes to Lórien where he is reunited with the Lady Arwen.
After plighting his troth with Arwen upon the hill of Cerin Amroth, Aragorn apparently returns to Rivendell briefly where he speaks with Lord Elrond and with his mother Gilraen before resuming his travels to distant lands, at least for a time.
'He [Aragorn] was weary and he wished to go back to Rivendell and rest there for a while ere he journeyed into the far countries...'
And...
'When Elrond learned the choice of his daughter, he was silent, though his heart was grieved and found the doom long feared none the easier to endure. But when Aragorn came again to Rivendell he called him to him, and he said:
'"My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor. To me then even our victory can bring only sorrow and parting--but to you hope and joy for a while. Alas, my son! I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending."
'So it stood afterwards between Elrond and Aragorn, and they spoke no more of this matter; but Aragorn went forth again to danger and toil.'
Although this disagrees with Tolkien scholar Robert Foster, I do not think that Gilraen left Rivendell to be with her own folk until after 2980. If this is so then it lends more credibility to the thought that Aragorn was still spending time in far countries for several years after his betrothal to Arwen. To bring this back to the topic at hand, I think it is reasonable to think that Aragorn's travels at least took him back through some parts of Rohan even if he never again visited Edoras until March of 3019.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 29 2016, 1:58pm)
|
|
|
Al Carondas
Lorien
May 29 2016, 1:57pm
Post #17 of 22
(3848 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Eowyn's journey through shadow
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I have always been puzzled by Eowyn's love for Aragorn. I never believed it was true love, so to speak. She falls for him so suddenly, and her own words and Tolkien's description of her feelings seem always to emphasize that it was Aragorn's position and power that had won her heart. I think that Eowyn really sees in Aragorn a hope of escape. I would say that Gandalf has the best read on the situation. Eowyn feels trapped. She wants something that she knows Eomer and Theoden will never grant her: the freedom to stand up and fight as they do. So, she is drawn to Aragorn out of a desperate desire to change her circumstances.
I would judge that Aragorn does well in letting her down as easily as possible. (far better than I ever have) He doesn't ignore the situation. He is honest and respectful with her. But ultimately he cannot give her what she truly wants, which really isn't himself.
In the end, Eowyn simply finds another way to get what she really wants. I would not say that Aragorn drove her to battle and thoughts of suicide. Aragorn just leaves her with no other option but to sneak off to claim her destiny. It is the fact that she must sneak off to do so, having been disrespected by Theoden, Eomer and (lastly) Aragorn that contributes to her fey state of mind. And, as Gandalf points out, it is probable that the whisperings of Wormtongue have also contributed to the darkening of her spirit and the sapping of her hope, to the point where she no longer looks for victory or return from battle.
But I find myself truly heartened by Eowyn's eventual recovery and union with Faramir, even though I do take Rhiannon's point about the sexism. Still, I feel like Eowyn does not regress in that. She has proved her courage and strength, but has also gone on to find that she is fit for other, equally worthy, if less renowned, purposes as well. Man or woman, aren't we all meant for better things than war? Perhaps that is Tolkien's larger point. But more on that when we come to that chapter.
"Good Morning!"
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 29 2016, 6:59pm
Post #18 of 22
(3834 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The notion that healing is a feminine pursuit...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
...is a very recent one. It wasn't until the middle of the 20th Century that women were openly accepted as doctors (they weren't even respected as nurses until the mid 19th C, with pioneers like Clara Barton and Florence Nightengale). No, the suitable role for women with the sick and wounded was "comforter" (bathing the fevered brow, encouraging mouthfuls of broth, keeping watch). The great healers of LotR (Elrond and his sons, Aragorn, Gandalf) are all male. That's strong company to aspire to join.
|
|
|
|
|
'‘But the Lady Éowyn was yet living when they bore her hither.''
[
