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**LotR V.8, The Houses of Healing** 2. Healthcare, Gondorian style

Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 25 2016, 6:05pm

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**LotR V.8, The Houses of Healing** 2. Healthcare, Gondorian style Can't Post

(Sorry I couldn't post this last night, the site seemed to be down for a while.)

Many patients and survivors, including Aragorn, Eomer, and Imrahil now come in from the battle. Gandalf is hanging around HoH rather than intervening any more.

In this chapter, we are treated to a survey or the general state of healing in Gondor, which is still the most advanced in Middle Earth, though not at the high level it achieved in the past. This is an echo of a recurrent theme throughout the book, that all civilization is in decline and has been for a long time.

For though all lore was in these latter days fallen from its fullness of old, the leechcraft of Gondor was still wise, and skilled in the healing of wound and hurt, and all such sickness as east of the Sea mortal men were subject to. Save old age only. For that they had found no cure; and indeed the span of their lives had now waned to little more than that of other men, and those among them who passed the tale of five score years with vigour were grown few, save in some houses of purer blood.

In the Appendices and elsewhere, it is said that the Numenorians had been granted a life span three times that of other Men. However, Hammond & Scull quote Christopher Tolkien who asserted that in JRRT's later years he asserted that it was a factor of five longer.

1. Why is the theme of "the decline of Western Civilization" so pervasive in this book? Both in-story and external theories welcome! Does this echo a general zeitgeist (spirit of the time) that Western or European culture is in decline in the post-WWII era?

2. How important is this for understanding Gondorian culture in the Third Age?

3. If the "gift of Man" is, indeed, a gift, was Eru actually retracting his Gift by allowing Numenorians to live longer? What is the rationale?


The staff of the Houses of Healing seem to consist mostly of elderly caregivers such as Ioreth and older children such as Bergil who remained while their families were evacuated to the country. The kids are apparently being used as errand-runners. The Gondorians appear to rely upon herbal medicines. But now their art and knowledge were baffled; for there were many sick of a malady that would not be healed; and they called it the Black Shadow, for it came from the Nazgûl. And those who were stricken with it fell slowly into an ever deeper dream, and then passed to silence and a deadly cold, and so died.

4. How recent is this phenominon of the "Black Shadow" (known elsewhere as the "Black Breath")? Is it just in this current war, or has it been building? Would it have been a known malady when Aragorn was here as Thorongil?

Aragorn clearly recognized it in Frodo after Weathertop. Black Shadow sufferers, including now Faramir, Éowyn, and Merry, among very many more, were apparently assigned attendants, or watchers: Still at whiles as the morning wore away they would speak, murmuring in their dreams; and the watchers listened to all that they said, hoping perhaps to learn something that would help them to understand their hurts.

5. How, exactly, did they expect "watchers" to help? Or were they using the watchers as diagnostic tools, to help determine if this was really Black Shadow an not some other injury that would be treated differently?

6. If we have, as some have estimated, 1,000 or more wounded vets off the field, how many watchers are now required?


Gandalf went from one to the other full of care, and he was told all that the watchers could hear. And so the day passed, while the great battle outside went on with shifting hopes and strange tidings; and still Gandalf waited and watched and did not go forth; till at last the red sunset filled all the sky, and the light through the windows fell on the grey faces of the sick.

7. What is Gandalf looking for? Is he hoping to heal the victims, or seeking some iota of intelligence that he could use to thwart the enemy?

We are told little about treatment options. They clearly know how to set broken bones, as the treatment of Éowyn's arm is praise-worthy. Most indigenous people rely on herbal remedies, and indeed there is a resident Herb-master. The only herb that is actually mentioned, however, is athelas, and they don't know about it or have any. That is, I suppose, consistent with it being "kingsfoil" and powerful only in the hands of a king.

8. Are there any other Middle Earth medical treatments described anywhere?

Then an old wife, Ioreth, the eldest of the women who served in that house, looking on the fair face of Faramir, wept, for all the people loved him. And she said: ‘Alas! if he should die. Would that there were kings in Gondor, as there were once upon a time, they say! For it is said in old lore: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer. And so the rightful king could ever be known.’

This must be old lore, indeed, as the last king rode off to Minas Morgul in TA2050, and it is now TA3019. However, our culture has a fair amount of lore that's pretty old, too. In a 1986 article, David Cofield discusses possible medieval origins for this idea. It works, though, as a great way to confirm Aragorn's claim to the throne, particularly for the citizens of Minas Tirith.

Aragorn, as we know from Weathertop, relies on athelas as a healing herb. Athelas, with its many names from common to botanical, is described lyrically, but with major emphasis on its wholesomeness. Several possible candidates for athelas have been proposed.

9. What does "Wholesome" smell like? Does it actually cure anything, or does the cure actually depend upon Aragorn's "laying on of hands"?

10. Do you have a favorite among these "wholesome" herbs?


Next: Let healing begin!








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 25 2016, 6:08pm)


InTheChair
Rohan

May 25 2016, 9:04pm

Post #2 of 11 (1272 views)
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Just the immidiate thoughts. [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Why is the theme of "the decline of Western Civilization" so pervasive in this book? Both in-story and external theories welcome! Does this echo a general zeitgeist (spirit of the time) that Western or European culture is in decline in the post-WWII era?
Don't know about external reasons, unless these are found in the authors own opinions. Possibly a dislike of the rapid changes and industrialization of the world. In-story it fits with the coming age of Men, where all will be briefer.
2. How important is this for understanding Gondorian culture in the Third Age?
The history matters, both for the role of Gondor and for characters like Denethor and Faramir. It helps define them.
3. If the "gift of Man" is, indeed, a gift, was Eru actually retracting his Gift by allowing Numenorians to live longer? What is the rationale?
Not retracting, only delaying, though it is uncertain if the longer life-span really come as a gift from Eru, or as a natural consequense of elven bloodlines.

4. How recent is this phenominon of the "Black Shadow" (known elsewhere as the "Black Breath")? Is it just in this current war, or has it been building? Would it have been a known malady when Aragorn was here as Thorongil?
I think the first Boromir, not the one in LotRs, was wounded with a morgul wound, and withered and died, which must be a fairly similar malady. Surprising then that in Minas Tirith the healers did not recognize it, but it might have been more potent at this time when the With-king had been given additional demonic power by Sauron.

6. If we have, as some have estimated, 1,000 or more wounded vets off the field, how many watchers are now required?
Not many. If the watchers purpose is only to listen and take notes, it should be enough with one at a time for the trio Faramir, Eowyn and Merry, and the ratio 1:3 is probably a lot higher than what was available for lower ranking people. Don't know what the full purpose of a watcher was however.

7. What is Gandalf looking for? Is he hoping to heal the victims, or seeking some iota of intelligence that he could use to thwart the enemy?
Looking for signs that the stricken are overcoming the despair I should guess. Medically both he and the healers of Gondor had already done what they could for them. Perhaps by knowing the reasons for their despair, which must be personal, the black breath must have something to work with, he though he might better help them overcome it, assuming they were communicable.
Gandalf also sat long by Frodo in Imladris while he was recovering from this disease.

8. Are there any other Middle Earth medical treatments described anywhere?
Not in detail. Gimli has a blood-stained linen-band round his head coming out of Helms Deep.
There's hte orc-draugh Pippin and Merry gets a taste of. Don't know if it counts as medicine, but it revives them well enough for a set time. There also something smeared on Merrys scar.
All elven food and drink seems to have reviving properties.

10. Do you have a favorite among these "wholesome" herbs?
Not a herb but the Ent-draught that Treebeard gives to Merry and Pippin has interesting qualities.


(This post was edited by InTheChair on May 25 2016, 9:07pm)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 25 2016, 9:36pm

Post #3 of 11 (1263 views)
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Orc medicine [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point about that. We don't often think of orcs as care-givers! Both the drink (which seems to be some kind of awful brandy) and the smeared stuff seem to be effective, though not pleasant. There's also the brandy-like drink that Gandalf gave the hobbits on Caradhras.








Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 25 2016, 11:24pm

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More than you want to know about the lifespan of Numenorian Kings [In reply to] Can't Post

I am grateful to Eärwen Swan Maiden Of Alqualondë for posting a link to this amazing bit of super-geek analysis back in 2007.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 25 2016, 11:25pm)


No One in Particular
Lorien


May 26 2016, 1:21am

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Orc miruvor [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Good point about that. We don't often think of orcs as care-givers! Both the drink (which seems to be some kind of awful brandy) and the smeared stuff seem to be effective, though not pleasant. There's also the brandy-like drink that Gandalf gave the hobbits on Caradhras.


Since the Orcs are (maybe) twisted mockeries of Elves, I have always taken the Orc-draught to be a twisted and degraded version of Miruvor. It does strengthen Merry and Pippin, and the orc-salve heals the cut on Merry's head, but it leaves a scar. Is it safe to assume that Elf medicine wouldn't? Possibly.

While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph


enanito
Rohan

May 26 2016, 3:43am

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Charges [In reply to] Can't Post

I find the word "charge" indicative of Gandalf's perspective on caring for the wounded. He seemed to feel there was a burden of responsibility for him to be "in charge and present" during the care, but interestingly of only certain of the wounded.

I'm not sure he would have felt the same burden if the Black Shadow had not been involved. It may be that this was an extension of his mandate to actively counter the "supernatural", as he did the Balrog and WiKi.

Gandalf first refers to Faramir being his charge (but not any others that were wounded in the initial fighting and returned to Minas Tirith). Then upon the walls as he discerns the defeat of the WiKi, he states that he will soon have other charges -- which I interpret as any survivors of the encounter with the Nazgul. It wouldn't take much discernment to proclaim that there would soon be wounded to care for -- so his pronouncement of receiving charges may mean a different type of survivor is soon to arrive. And now he has an unexpected charge/burden in Merry, who he sees is likewise affected by the Black Shadow.


a.s.
Valinor


May 26 2016, 10:12pm

Post #7 of 11 (1197 views)
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"I do not expect ‘history’ to be anything but a ‘long defeat’" [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
1. Why is the theme of "the decline of Western Civilization" so pervasive in this book? Both in-story and external theories welcome! Does this echo a general zeitgeist (spirit of the time) that Western or European culture is in decline in the post-WWII era?



I don't know if it might or might not reflect a general (or even a personal) feeling of Western civilization being in decline, but it certainly reflects a general and a personal Catholic Christian understanding of the loss of Paradise (as man's intended dwelling) and the long, long spiraling path away from it, until the end of times when all will be judged.

The further the characters within the story are removed from Valinor or the sight of Valinor, the less and less they resemble their original status.

Something like that.

a.s.

"an seileachan"


"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.



noWizardme
Half-elven


May 27 2016, 5:36pm

Post #8 of 11 (1176 views)
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Fantasy looks back, and science fiction looks forward? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not always, of course, since Fantasy and Science Fiction are very flexible genres (and aren't completely distinct, anyway). But I was thinking that a lot of 'return of the old' stories tend to be in the fantasy end of the spectrum, with its tropes of mythology or folklore or magic being both true and powerful. By contrast up at the science fiction end of things, this years robots and spaceships will of course be better than last year's.

As I say though, it's easy to think of exceptions - you can have 'wizards versus space marines' if you like and is that fantasy or science fiction? And in any case would it be helpful to decide? It might be better to tell the story, decide it's called Star Wars, and see if anyone likes it.

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Darkstone
Immortal


May 27 2016, 6:56pm

Post #9 of 11 (1179 views)
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Still smokin' after all these years. [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Why is the theme of "the decline of Western Civilization" so pervasive in this book?

It’s part of any mythos, from Hindu to Norse to Christianity: The world used to be perfect, then it got damaged, then it got more damaged, then it broke, and then it got fixed.


Both in-story and external theories welcome!

Since Tolkien is building a mythos he has to put that in.


Does this echo a general zeitgeist (spirit of the time) that Western or European culture is in decline in the post-WWII era?

Thus it ever was:

“The world’s going to heck in a handbasket! Dang kids got no respect for their elders! Why in my day everything was perfect!” (Yeah, grandpa. And thanks to today’s higher quality of life and greater life expectancy it’s even perfecter.)

“I’ll make America great again!” (Now exactly when was that? The era of slaveholding, robber baronry, The Great Depression, or just any time when minorities and women knew their place?)


2. How important is this for understanding Gondorian culture in the Third Age?

Not if you already understand the story of the fisher king. The king and the land are one, and if there’s no king things go downhill fast.


3. If the "gift of Man" is, indeed, a gift, was Eru actually retracting his Gift by allowing Numenorians to live longer?

It actually enhances the gift. Ask any kid about the delightful anticipation of Christmas.


What is the rationale?

After Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden people began to age and die. The Antediluvian patriarchs (excluding Enoch) lived an average of 912 years. In the 1000 years after the Flood the life spans of the patriarchs form a nicely exponential curve from that of Noah (912 years) to Moses (whose 120 years matches the maximum life expectancy of modern man.)

The taint of original sin (or the taint of Morgoth) is why the life spans of the Biblical patriarchs (or Numenorean kings) decreased over time.


The staff of the Houses of Healing seem to consist mostly of elderly caregivers such as Ioreth and older children such as Bergil who remained while their families were evacuated to the country. The kids are apparently being used as errand-runners. The Gondorians appear to rely upon herbal medicines. But now their art and knowledge were baffled; for there were many sick of a malady that would not be healed; and they called it the Black Shadow, for it came from the Nazgûl. And those who were stricken with it fell slowly into an ever deeper dream, and then passed to silence and a deadly cold, and so died.

PTSD can kill you.


4. How recent is this phenominon of the "Black Shadow" (known elsewhere as the "Black Breath")?

The first documented case of PTSD is induced hysterical blindness from the Battle of Marathon in 490BC:

In this fight at Marathon there were slain of the Barbarians about six thousand four hundred men, and of the Athenians a hundred and ninety and two. Such was the number which fell on both sides; and it happened also that a marvel occurred there of this kind: an Athenian, Epizelos the son of Cuphagoras, while fighting in the close combat and proving himself a good man, was deprived of the sight of his eyes, neither having received a blow in any part of his body nor having been hit with a missile, and for the rest of his life from this time he continued to be blind: and I was informed that he used to tell about that which had happened to him a tale of this kind, namely that it seemed to him that a tall man in full armour stood against him, whose beard overshadowed his whole shield; and this apparition passed him by, but killed his comrade who stood next to him. Thus, as I was informed, Epizelos told the tale.
-Histories, by Herodotus (440 BC)

Freaked out because his buddy got killed instead of him. Pretty typical.


Is it just in this current war, or has it been building?

All wars are hell.


Would it have been a known malady when Aragorn was here as Thorongil?

Black Breath = Soldier’s Heart = Shell Shock = Battle Fatigue = Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome


Aragorn clearly recognized it in Frodo after Weathertop. Black Shadow sufferers, including now Faramir, Éowyn, and Merry, among very many more, were apparently assigned attendants, or watchers: Still at whiles as the morning wore away they would speak, murmuring in their dreams; and the watchers listened to all that they said, hoping perhaps to learn something that would help them to understand their hurts.

5. How, exactly, did they expect "watchers" to help?


Listening is not a passive matter. It always reflects what we expect to hear. Hearing, on the other hand, is something else altogether as I later went on to learn. To hear properly one has to suspend one’s preconceptions and be prepared to question one’s own thoughts and beliefs. It is important to give a space to the client and not fill it with one’s artful questions, ideas or interpretations. It is to take a step back for a moment and wonder. We all listen but how much do we actually hear?
-Dr. John Marzillier, Listening versus Hearing in Psychotherapy


Or were they using the watchers as diagnostic tools, to help determine if this was really Black Shadow an not some other injury that would be treated differently?

It’s said doctors could readily diagnose and cure the vast majority of their patients if they just took the time to listen to them.

Note Aragorn first listens before he treats Frodo:

Then he heard what Frodo had to tell, he became full of concern, and shook his head and sighed.
-The Flight to the Ford


6. If we have, as some have estimated, 1,000 or more wounded vets off the field, how many watchers are now required?

Possibly 2000 working 1000 four-on/four-off shifts.


Gandalf went from one to the other full of care, and he was told all that the watchers could hear. And so the day passed, while the great battle outside went on with shifting hopes and strange tidings; and still Gandalf waited and watched and did not go forth; till at last the red sunset filled all the sky, and the light through the windows fell on the grey faces of the sick.

7. What is Gandalf looking for?


…I needed to listen to the client more carefully before embarking on any specific intervention.
- Dr. John Marzillier, Listening versus Hearing in Psychotherapy


Is he hoping to heal the victims, or seeking some iota of intelligence that he could use to thwart the enemy?

Yes.


We are told little about treatment options. They clearly know how to set broken bones, as the treatment of Éowyn's arm is praise-worthy. Most indigenous people rely on herbal remedies, and indeed there is a resident Herb-master. The only herb that is actually mentioned, however, is athelas, and they don't know about it or have any. That is, I suppose, consistent with it being "kingsfoil" and powerful only in the hands of a king.

8. Are there any other Middle Earth medical treatments described anywhere?


Sure. Frodo’s Morgul wound gets treated by Aragorn with athelas and a song and later gets examined by Glorfindel until Eleond and Gandalf tag team it. Aragorn uses athelas on Frodo’s and Sam’s wounds after Moria. Luthien cures Beren’s wounds with a herb Huan knows about (athelas?) and uses her songs, tears, warmth, and spit (kisses) to cure him. In general warmth, rest, and hydration seem standard across the board.


9. What does "Wholesome" smell like?

Mom. When Mom sends us volatile chemicals in the blood that passes to us through the umbilical cord we tend to prefer the odor and taste of those chemicals later as babies. So if you really like the odor of vanilla, bananas, chocolate, garlic, alcohol, tobacco, and/or athelas, you might blame Mom.


Does it actually cure anything,…

At least as much as the bark from the placebo tree.


…or does the cure actually depend upon Aragorn's "laying on of hands"?

Anxiety can reduce immune function and can cause sickness or delay healing. The human touch can reduce anxiety. Who touches you (total stranger, loved one, authority figure) can affect the degree of that reduction. So it’s synergistic.


10. Do you have a favorite among these "wholesome" herbs?

I read a Scientific American article that noted the taste and smell of Wintergreen is rated highly pleasant in the US because of its association with candy, while it’s rated very low in pleasantness in Great Britain because it’s associated with medicine.

As for an inspiration for athelas, I’d think it’s likely that it’s one of Tolkien’s most favorite herbs, a once popular anti-inflammatory stimulant formerly used for centuries for earaches, snake bites, cuts and burns, respiratory diseases, fever, convulsions, nervous ailments, urinary ailments, skin diseases, and many other ailments: tobacco.

******************************************
"We’re orcs of the Misty Mountains,
Our singing’s part of canon.
We do routines and chorus scenes
While dancing with abandon.
We killed Isildur in the Gladden,
To help Sauron bring Armageddon!"

-From "Monty Python and the One Ring"


(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 27 2016, 7:01pm)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 27 2016, 8:36pm

Post #10 of 11 (1167 views)
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Have I ever told you... [In reply to] Can't Post

...how much I appreciate your posts?


In Reply To
6. If we have, as some have estimated, 1,000 or more wounded vets off the field, how many watchers are now required?

Possibly 2000 working 1000 four-on/four-off shifts.


That was the point I was looking for. What do you estimate to be the population of wartime Minas Tirith (after the evacuation)?


Quote
We are told little about treatment options. They clearly know how to set broken bones, as the treatment of Éowyn's arm is praise-worthy. Most indigenous people rely on herbal remedies, and indeed there is a resident Herb-master. The only herb that is actually mentioned, however, is athelas, and they don't know about it or have any. That is, I suppose, consistent with it being "kingsfoil" and powerful only in the hands of a king.

8. Are there any other Middle Earth medical treatments described anywhere?


Sure. Frodo’s Morgul wound gets treated by Aragorn with athelas and a song and later gets examined by Glorfindel until Eleond and Gandalf tag team it. Aragorn uses athelas on Frodo’s and Sam’s wounds after Moria. Luthien cures Beren’s wounds with a herb Huan knows about (athelas?) and uses her songs, tears, warmth, and spit (kisses) to cure him. In general warmth, rest, and hydration seem standard across the board.


What, then, does the Herb Master keep in his storehouse?


Quote
Does it actually cure anything,…

At least as much as the bark from the placebo tree.


Ah, yes, that must be it.


Quote
…or does the cure actually depend upon Aragorn's "laying on of hands"?

Anxiety can reduce immune function and can cause sickness or delay healing. The human touch can reduce anxiety. Who touches you (total stranger, loved one, authority figure) can affect the degree of that reduction. So it’s synergistic.


Maybe watchers touch, sometimes.


Quote
10. Do you have a favorite among these "wholesome" herbs?

I read a Scientific American article that noted the taste and smell of Wintergreen is rated highly pleasant in the US because of its association with candy, while it’s rated very low in pleasantness in Great Britain because it’s associated with medicine.

As for an inspiration for athelas, I’d think it’s likely that it’s one of Tolkien’s most favorite herbs, a once popular anti-inflammatory stimulant formerly used for centuries for earaches, snake bites, cuts and burns, respiratory diseases, fever, convulsions, nervous ailments, urinary ailments, skin diseases, and many other ailments: tobacco.


Hmmm, might flunk the "wholesome" test.

Thanks!








noWizardme
Half-elven


May 27 2016, 9:15pm

Post #11 of 11 (1158 views)
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Earlier cases of the Black Breath/Shadow [In reply to] Can't Post

 About the only useful thing the herb-master can contribute is a "doggerel" about how to cure the Black Breath. So someone has done it before, and tried to keep the method remembered.

BTW I'm thinking that The Black Shadow is a pretty good superhero name.
The Black Breath is not so good....

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm

 
 

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