|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
HOBBITFAN13
Lorien
May 19 2016, 5:43pm
Post #1 of 14
(1081 views)
Shortcut
|
Why did PJ spend so much time on elves?
|
Can't Post
|
|
An Unexpected Journey out of the Hobbit trilogy is my favorite because it is the only one that really focuses on the dwarves and Bilbo and the friendship of Bilbo and Thorin. After seeing DOS and BOFA, I just kept on wondering why are we watching more of Thranduil and Legolas than we are of our main character? Why are we focusing more on elves than the dwarves of Erebor? Your thoughts? Why do you think PJ spend so much on elves in the Hobbit trilogy?
|
|
|
Lissuin
Valinor
May 19 2016, 7:52pm
Post #2 of 14
(1012 views)
Shortcut
|
A very good question, indeed, for "The place for all Hobbit news and speculation".
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Peter Jackson loves elves, with a fierce and jealous love. He only ever wanted to make The Lord of the Rings because it could be a trilogy of films that would feature Elves in all three films. It was unfortunate, of course, that he did not use some of the Elves that fans were particularly fond of and who could actually have been Featured Elves, choosing to limit the number of Featured Elves by combining characters purely for reasons of economy and story-telling. That was such a satisfying foray into Elfdom that there was never any question that The Hobbit would somehow be used as a three-part platform for further Elf character exploration. For Sir Peter it has always been about the Elves.
|
|
|
dormouse
Half-elven
May 19 2016, 7:52pm
Post #3 of 14
(1010 views)
Shortcut
|
Easy. You're not watching Thranduil and Legolas more than Bilbo...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
...or the dwarves. Bilbo is the heart and centre of the films. The dwarves come pretty close to him, with Thorin as the main focus. The elves play an important part in the latter part of the story because they do - Tolkien said so. Legolas and Tauriel are additions, but the Elvenking of the book wasn't a hermit - there were other elves around - they just fought, died and said nothing (except the butler and the raft elves. And in general, surely the importance of elves in all six films reflects first, the importance Tolkien gave to them in the whole history of Middle-earth and second, the fact that they are very popular. But I simply don't agree that the films focus more on them than on the dwarves of Erebor - the whole story hinges on the dwarves of Erebor and their univited house guest. No dwarves, no story and no film!
For still there are so many things that I have never seen: in every wood and every spring there is a different green. . .
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
May 19 2016, 8:02pm
Post #4 of 14
(1007 views)
Shortcut
|
"Oh, God! Not another #&%#$#@ Elf!"
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Inkling Hugo Dyson shares your pain.
****************************************** Elves and Men and Dwarves gonna cower, When I finish building my tower, When I finish building my tower with the Eye on top! Watch that Eye and see how it glowers, Ain't no contest between the Two Towers, Nosey folks'll peek thru' palantirs and their eyes will pop! The battlement's black and immeasurably strong, an adamant mountain of iron, A buttress of steel, impossibly tall, held aloft by the power of Sauron! See that Eye a winkin' and blinkin', Ain't no finer tower I'm thinkin', You can keep Orthanc if you're thinkin' that I'd care to swap, For my black and shiny tower with the Eye on the top! -Rodgers and Hammerstein, The Lord of the Rings
|
|
|
Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
May 19 2016, 8:36pm
Post #5 of 14
(994 views)
Shortcut
|
You might as well ask why Tolkien did
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Granted, I'm not a Tolkienologist, but from what I've gathered watching the Appendices, Tolkien himself favored the Elves over the Dwarves, depicting them as almost angelic. At one time he apparently believed Dwarves had no souls, but later changed his mind on that one. And apparently PJ shares Tolkien's appreciation for Elves. Okay, wait a minute - it's clear that, at least in "The Hobbit" and LoTR, that Tolkien's favorite character is, in fact, the Hobbits; the only ones he actually invented. Elves & Dwarves were borrowed from other mythologies, and Wizards, well, that's probably a pretty British thing, isn't it? But Hobbits are pure Tokien, and PJ is the biggest Hobbit of all, just ask Ian McKellan! I can't speak for BOT5A, but someone apparently did a count on DOS and determined Thorin had the most spoken lines, and Bilbo had the most screentime. Wish I could find that thread. Anyway, yeah, Thranduil, Legolas & Tauriel certainly had some screentime in DOS, but not more than Bilbo & Thorin. But you're hardly the first person to complain about the missing Dwarves in BOT5A, there's that whole "Justice for Fili" meme, etc. That's one area the BOT5A EE definitely has over the TE; the scales were re-balanced a bit. Funny, in my opinion we spent too much time in Dale; just goes to show you can't please everyone.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
|
|
|
Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
May 19 2016, 10:17pm
Post #6 of 14
(972 views)
Shortcut
|
I always pitied Hugo in that moment.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
|
|
|
wizzardly
Rohan
May 19 2016, 11:08pm
Post #7 of 14
(948 views)
Shortcut
|
If a scene in the book didn't have orcs or elves in it, PJ asked "Why not?", and began furiously trying to figure out some way to get them in there. I think the reason for it is the fact that having elves and orcs affords more possibilities for epic action sequences and opportunities ot show off his special effects. Sure that time could have been spent developing the character of Bilbo, but it just wouldn't have looked as good in 3D.
|
|
|
Avandel
Half-elven
May 19 2016, 11:58pm
Post #8 of 14
(936 views)
Shortcut
|
Peter Jackson loves elves, with a fierce and jealous love. I wish I COULD cite the article, but I remember reading PJ's producer I think it was, flat out stating that Peter Jackson always loved the idea of a female fighting elf - and that was around when DOS was being made, I think. But it dovetailed with my own thought that having been shouted down over using Arwen as this "female fighting elf", the idea re-surged when the Hobbit provided an opportunity. Which is why I've always been cynical about any vague justification about Tauriel being there as a "strong woman" or a political statement, e.g., she's there because Arwen didn't get to kick butt at Helm's Deep - not because of any real desire to balance Tolkien and his many male characters.
For Sir Peter it has always been about the Elves It's a shame after the enthusiasm re AUJ, and those statements about "elevating the dwarf race". I kind of wince thinking about that fine dwarf cast mostly having no lines in BOFA (or Alfrid having more lines....) Or even IMO that the Hobbit book for me is really about 13 dwarves and a Halfling on a journey. I suppose that will always bother me - having such a hand-picked, stellar dwarf cast with charismatic actors who had chemistry - something that PJ knew of, and worked to achieve and considered important with his "dwarf boot camps" - and the shift to IMO some rather tepid elf-arcs. For me that's one of my huge BOFA quibbles. I think it's obvious that PJ was enthusiastic about getting Legolas back. Well, anyway, I know there's been a lot of discussion on this, but I guess at the end of the day PJ just loves his elves, especially certain elves, and there was no-one around to say "why don't we stick with the original plan where each and every dwarf gets their hero moment, and there's Beorn, and where even Evangaline Lily is saying her part isn't THAT great - "significant" maybe, but not major, and it's been 10 years and Legolas isn't the "hot number" any more", and so on. WB I suppose was good with it...well, IMO, we DO get some good elf scenes in both DOS and BOFA. Just not the elf fighting I wanted to see more of -Thranduil - who is the most interesting elf I've seen in PJ's Middle Earth. Elves. Maybe that's one of the reasons PJ seems to have been out of the public eye - I know if I could one of the first things I'd ask him is why? I mean, PJ could have just made up a movie with elves, and it could be all about elves.....
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 20 2016, 1:16am
Post #9 of 14
(921 views)
Shortcut
|
I wish I COULD cite the article, but I remember reading PJ's producer I think it was, flat out stating that Peter Jackson always loved the idea of a female fighting elf - and that was around when DOS was being made, I think. But it dovetailed with my own thought that having been shouted down over using Arwen as this "female fighting elf", the idea re-surged when the Hobbit provided an opportunity. PJ's female Wood-elf fighter goes all the way back to 2010 or earlier, when Drogo Baggins and Primula Brandybuck were intended to be characters in the films:
[ITARIL] FEMALE, A WOODLAND ELF, this character is one the Silvan Elves. The Silvan Elves are seen as more earthy and practical. Shorter than other elves, she is still quick and lithe and physically adept, being able to fight with both sword and bow. Showing promise as a fighter at a young age, ITARIL was chosen to train to become part of the Woodland King’s Guard. This is the only life she has ever expected to live, until she meets and secretly falls in love with a young ELF LORD. This role will require a wig and contact lenses to be worn. Some prosthetic make-up may also be required. LEAD. AGE: 17-27. ACCENT – STANDARD R.P. Link: http://www.movies.spoilertv.com/...it-casting-call.html
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 20 2016, 1:18am)
|
|
|
Noria
Gondor
May 20 2016, 11:48am
Post #10 of 14
(866 views)
Shortcut
|
PJ says a couple of times in the commentary for AUJ that the reason the Dwarves behave so badly at Rivendell is to stick it to the Elves. I am not sure that PJ particularly loves Elves; to me he seems to prefer Hobbit and Dwarves. Elves are central in Tolkien’s works as a whole and The Silmarillion and its companion works are primarily about Elves. The movies more-or-less follow the Hobbit and LotR books in that regard. Rivendell, Lorien and the Woodland Realm are all important in the books. Just as the writers expanded every subplot and embellished every character of TH, they did the same for the Elves. So Thranduil’s character was expanded and roles for Legolas and Tauriel created. It was necessary both to make the Woodland Realm and its denizens real and for the more complex geopolitical story that PJ was intent upon telling. As dormouse said, the heart of PJ’s Hobbit is Bilbo, his friendship with Thorin, and the other Dwarves. The Elves are secondary characters, supporting players. Personally I prefer Hobbits and Dwarves. Elves are too perfect, inhuman, airy-fairy and almost effeminate. Bu they do look pretty, dress well and kick ass!
|
|
|
Loresilme
Valinor
May 20 2016, 3:13pm
Post #11 of 14
(837 views)
Shortcut
|
I'm glad that he did; it ties in to the LOTR trilogy
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Aside from the fact that I find Tolkien's Elves fascinating (I would love a Silmarillion movie)*, IMO it makes the Elves in the LOTR trilogy more understandable. As an example, when Galadriel asks 'do we let them stand alone', to me it has even more meaning in light of the events in TH trilogy. And also how Elrond changes from TH films to the LOTR films, to me is as a reflection of the darkness creeping back into the world at the time of the events in LOTR. And how there is now a framework for Legolas' character. I'm glad the Elves were included in TH. As for why do I "think" PJ included them? We can only speculate, so if I had to speculate I would say because he thought the fans would like them there. It seems to me he has always been keen on giving the fans as much Middle-earth as he could. *And yes I'd really love a Sil movie but I guess I'll have to just keep dreaming on that one .
|
|
|
Avandel
Half-elven
May 20 2016, 3:35pm
Post #12 of 14
(830 views)
Shortcut
|
Personally I prefer Hobbits and Dwarves. Elves are too perfect, inhuman, airy-fairy and almost effeminate. Bu they do look pretty, dress well and kick ass! I suppose the concept of a "perfect, fair" group of beings seems to be a constant in Western myth and legend, from Atlanteans and before that - I don't know enough about far Eastern, African and southern Hemisphere mythology and folklore to know if the theme occurs there. Well, anyway, perhaps that's why I generally yawn over the original Rivendell elves - they are too "wafty" and "perfect" and "dull" - tho IMO the LOTR Legolas was beautiful and IMO his entry I think in DOS was pretty cool - it's just a few seconds but I enjoy that. Except, LOL there i now Thranduil, which for me besides looking like what IMO the Elven King should look like, has that same undercurrent of dangerousness I would expect of the Forest Lord. And IMO as cast, the clash and contrast between Thorin and Thranduil is beautifully depicted and certainly seized the imagination of many. (It's going to be real interesting seeing the Hobbit being remade at some point; because when I think about it, at least visually, I can't even imagine what another director will do that's BETTER than PJ, in many ways. I suppose w. technology advances we could get a spectacular CGI-rendered Beorn that shape-shifts in front of us. A different Bilbo and dwarves that look like what some have expressed a wish for. A far grimmer Bard. At the moment tho I can't think how you would depict elves "better" unless you go "avant-garde". I suppose you could film Mirkwood actually on location in a swamp, maybe.) I may often feel tepid on elves, but PJ, IMO, does do wonderful elves. Original art: from Tumblr; tumblr_o5veeitirB1vqwimdo1_1280.jpg
(This post was edited by Avandel on May 20 2016, 3:35pm)
|
|
|
Avandel
Half-elven
May 20 2016, 3:54pm
Post #13 of 14
(828 views)
Shortcut
|
*And yes I'd really love a Sil movie but I guess I'll have to just keep dreaming on that one . I wonder how folks would respond to elves (and dwarves) really getting into it. The bits and pieces I've read from the Sil - or at least the history of the enmity - it's not nice. It's outright slaughter of each other at times. Re LOTR, I think one of the issues of the Hobbit was, actually, too much of an emphasis on trying to tie the films together, and not using a lighter hand with that. I think PJ should have taken the direction of, to the best of his ability, forgetting LOTR had ever been made, and making the Hobbit as good as it could possibly be. But not to get all negative as IMO there is too much good here, and as has been pointed out, these films - my favorites - may not have existed at all. I guess I would have saved some money LOL but I wouldn't have had so many enthralled, joyous moments. We got to see Elrond fighting!
|
|
|
Loresilme
Valinor
May 20 2016, 4:54pm
Post #14 of 14
(815 views)
Shortcut
|
Good point, it would come as a shock
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I wonder how folks would respond to elves (and dwarves) really getting into it. The bits and pieces I've read from the Sil - or at least the history of the enmity - it's not nice. It's outright slaughter of each other at times. after becoming accustomed to the Middle-earth films where so far the "bad guy" has always been a kind of dark lord presence, against which all the free peoples band together and fight, it would come as a very unpleasant surprise to some to witness what they did to each other in those earlier ages . I felt the focus in TH was always on the Bilbo and the dwarves, especially because they did such an incredible job creating the individual dwarf characters! To see all those who (to me) had been only names crafted into individual personalities was wonderful. The side stories of the Elves added depth and shading to the 'painting', but did not, IMO, ever become the primary subject. Just some nice side benefits, like ...
We got to see Elrond fighting! Yes!! And got to see Elrond's armor !!
|
|
|
|
|