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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Mixed Reaction Thread

MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien

May 17 2016, 3:05am

Post #1 of 25 (1448 views)
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The Mixed Reaction Thread Can't Post

This board is so polarizing, so to go along with the two extreme opposites, this thread is for people like me who liked a lot of stuff in the movies, but also didn't like a lot of stuff in the movies.

I'll start by listing three things I would change and three things that are perfect.

I would cut Azog and have just one central Orc villain (Bolg).
I would cut out irrelevant subplots (Tauriel/Kili, Legolas' feud with Bolg, Alfrid doing things).
I would make the tone more fairy tale and less LOTR.

However, the music is perfect. Howard Shore completely delivered.
The casting is excellent across the board.
The designs for the Dwarves are fantastic (except Kili, because come on).


TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan


May 17 2016, 5:42am

Post #2 of 25 (1343 views)
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This, too, will become a hate thread [In reply to] Can't Post

Anytime now...

"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War


Noria
Gondor

May 17 2016, 12:08pm

Post #3 of 25 (1306 views)
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I’ll play, now before it all goes bad. [In reply to] Can't Post

Admittedly I mostly love these movies but there are things I didn’t care for:

Three things I didn’t like:
1) Alfrid in TBOTFA: too much, too over-the-top. Too bad because I really liked the character in DOS.

2) Dol Guldur: loved the White Council and Radagast in AUJ, felt that the Dol Guldur subplot in DOS didn’t work as well (except for Thrain) and found the denouement in TBOTFA underwhelming. Not bad, just meh. The little strain of purist in me didn’t like Nenya as an offensive weapon and found the battle too physical. I liked the way the sequence looked though and Elrond really rocked!

3) Celebrity casting, namely the Great Goblin and the Master. I don’t know much about Barry Humphries but am familiar with the great work of Stephen Fry. I found both performances hammy and excessive and for that I blame PJ and his fanboyism, not the actors.

Three of the gazillion things I love:
1) The Bag End sequence: I loved everything about it. Well maybe not the burping and the food fight, but that’s PJ (or his surrogate AS) and I’m a bit prissy.

2) Thranduil was perfectly realized: the look, the casting, the acting, the costumes. I don’t even like the character much because he’s a jerk but he’s very well done.

3) The sets: Erebor, Bag End, Rivendell, Laketown and Dale were all beautiful and I don’t care how much was digital and how much was real. There was wonderful scenery as well.


I agree with the OP about the great music, the inspired casting and the bold design of the Dwarves, for me even Kili.

Azog and Bolg are OK with me because I see why they wanted two villains and don’t care about Orcs or their names. Legolas feud with Bolg doesn’t bother me but I found the fight scenes too long, as I often do. I loved Tauriel, and liked Tauriel and Kili. I believe that a more fairy tale feel would not have worked in these prequels to the already existing LotR trilogy.
.


dormouse
Half-elven


May 17 2016, 1:33pm

Post #4 of 25 (1284 views)
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Me too.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and as another who really enjoys the films I'd list these as three minor gripes:

1. "I'm having a reaction" and occasional other lines which leap out at me as being too modern.
2. The stick insect
3. The way the Nazgul in the Dol Guldur fight keep shattering into fragments. This seems to have become an accepted way to represent the magical death of film villains and it doesn't work for me, I wish they'd found some other image.

Now for the nice bit Cool

So hard to pin it down to three - here are a few samples....
1. 'Far over the Misty Mountains'
2. The flight of the Eagles
3. Bombur blowing the horn at Erebor

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 17 2016, 2:37pm

Post #5 of 25 (1269 views)
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Good Idea/Bad Idea [In reply to] Can't Post

GOOD IDEA: Include Radagast the Brown.
BAD IDEA: Turn him into a toon.

GOOD IDEA: Include the White Council.
BAD IDEA: The Nazgûl tombs at the High Fells.

GOOD IDEA: Add female supporting characters.
BAD IDEA: Give one of them a love story with a Dwarf.

GOOD IDEA: Include Legolas.
BAD IDEA: Include too much Legolas.

GOOD IDEA: Introduce Bard earlier.
BAD IDEA: Turn him into Han Solo.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 17 2016, 2:40pm)


weathertop
Rohan


May 17 2016, 3:53pm

Post #6 of 25 (1241 views)
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Me three [In reply to] Can't Post

Overall, I liked the three Hobbit movies, although not as much as LOTR (even there i had some ... nitpicks)

among all the other things mentioned here are Three Things I liked most:
1) bag end sequence - especially "Far over the Misty Mountains" -- hell even my teenage daughter who doesn't care for Tolkien loves that song

2) Smaug. Amazing to see him realized on the big screen!!

3) THE THUNDER BATTLE! one of my ultimate favorite part of the book come to life. i was soooo stoked to see that.

4) Cinematography. enabling me to delve back into ME once again

Three things I wish had been different:

1) most of all: chase scenes shortened. Seriously! The 'escape' from the orc band before Rivendell, escape from Goblin Town, escape from Mirkwood. they ALL went on at least twice as long as they needed to.

2) the need for were-worms. couldn't they just arrive normally? like at helm's deep? it was relatively believable until then.

3) did i say too long chase scenes already?

Enginerd

(This post was edited by weathertop on May 17 2016, 4:02pm)


No One in Particular
Lorien


May 17 2016, 5:10pm

Post #7 of 25 (1226 views)
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Bombur, dwarf of many talents. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
.

Now for the nice bit Cool

So hard to pin it down to three - here are a few samples....
1. 'Far over the Misty Mountains'
2. The flight of the Eagles
3. Bombur blowing the horn at Erebor


No one really talks about that scene much, but I have to agree. I don't know why I like it, but I do. Bombur blows a mean trumpet when the occasion calls for it!

In fact, I'm going to say that movie Bombur is preferable to book Bombur in most respects. In the book he's basically a walking fat joke. There's still some of that in the movie, but at least there's more to offset the obesity humor.

While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph


malickfan
Gondor


May 17 2016, 7:18pm

Post #8 of 25 (1206 views)
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I have very mixed feelings on this trilogy... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
[Things I liked or Loved:

-I really enjoyed AUJ for the most part, a decent enough adaptation and a hugely enjoyable film.

-Increasingly fewer parts of DOS and BOTFA.

-Thranduil's appearance and Pace's performance were perfect, very similar to what I had pictured reading the book

-The Production design and artwork was every bit as good as LOTR i.m.o, a good blend of nostaglia and more heightened fantasy

-Smaug's design and voice, although I think he was too big, Jackson got every other aspect right, very imposing and memorable.

-The acting was very good throughout by most of the cast

-Bombur and Bofur, though sadly underused were both very fun characters

-Although most of the dwarves were given little to do, I appreciate that Jackson at least attempted to give them more depth

-Speaking as something of a purist, I really liked Evageline's performance as tauriel (though I was less than thrilled with how they employed the character)

-Azog's design was pretty cool

-Martin Freeman was the perfect choice for Bilbo, when he wasn't empliying his annoying facial ticks.

-More female characters

-The Barrels out of bounds sequence was great fun

-I appreciate that the films were made

-Although I'm still inclined to say 2 3 hour films would have been the best option, there's alot to like about these films, and at th every least it gave us all lots to talk about for the last six years.

-Quite a few other things, major and minor

Things I disliked or completely hated:

-I have no pressing desire to watch these films ever again for the forseeable future.

-Honestly...I found BOTFA rather boring for the most part...

-The love triangle between Tauriel and what's his face

-Although Armitage gave a good performance as Thorin, I honestly still like the character more as he is written in the book-a deeply flawed imposing morally grey king exile, rather than a blandly heroic and oh so tragic action hero rarely deserving of the hero worship the characters seem to lavish on him, I was practically cheering when Azog killed him, speaking of which...

-Although I liked the design and performance of Azog I'm still annoyed that he was present at all, I see no reason why they couldn't use Bolg instead.

-ill judged coarse humour which felt at odds with the tone of the story

-Radghasty, utterly awful in every way

-Billy Connoly was wasted and Dain made into an overblown bufoon.

-Although some of the fight scenes were very impressively shot and choreographed, the use of excessive CGI and stupid fight 'gags' made alot of them feel weightless and repetitive, like outakes from a videogame

-The Master of Lake-town was annoying Stephen Fry is a charming man and fairly decent actor, but he was given nothing to do...

Wereworms, pointless misinterpreted fanservice that only created a plot hole.

-The trilogy felt very choppily edited overall

-For all Jackson's admirable effort and inventive new material, I still don't think this needed to be a trilogy, and many of the additions and adaptions from the supposed appendice material simply failed to grab my interest...

-No talking purse Mad

-Nuclear/slow motion, ominously speaking Galadriel...in general there were far too many callbacks to LOTR i.m.o

-Way too much CGI

-Despite a 10 hour running time and $800 million budget, I still vastly prefer the graphic novel as an adaptation.

-Taxi service eagles again

-Beorn should have been dropped

-This trilogy has utterly killed any enthusiam I had for any future films set in Middle Earth for the foreseeable future.

-Lots of other things.


Overall I'd give the trilogy somewhere between 5-7/10, there's certainly alot to like or love in these films, but for me personally it's a very bloated, confused trilogy for the most part, disappointing as a follow up to the LOTR trilogy and fairly infuriating as an adaptation, so it's kinda hard to pin down my thoughts on it...








Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 17 2016, 7:31pm

Post #9 of 25 (1193 views)
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Kind of a throwback to Gimli [In reply to] Can't Post

blowing the horn at Helm's Deep, at least that's what I always think of when I see it. Yeah, it was a good scene, and I like that Bombur isn't just the fat cook, but one badass warrior when called upon - and the fastest runner, too!

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 17 2016, 7:51pm

Post #10 of 25 (1188 views)
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Well I didn't start this [In reply to] Can't Post

And I'm not sure if the "Haters Thread" was an attempt at humor, or really set up to give the Haters room to vent (as if they NEEDED their own thread, but whatever).
Despite my overall affection for this trilogy and all things Thorin, even I have a few spots where I wish things had been different. I wish Radaghast hadn't been on a bunny sled, or had bird poo on his face. I wish Stephen Fry hadn't eaten "bollocks," and that Alfrid hadn't worn a dress. I agree with one poster that some of the chase scenes were too long. I totally LOVE the ice chariot scene in BOT5A, but completely understand why some don't. PJ admitted it was an over-indulgent scene that he just wanted to have. I guess it was his movie, after all. And there were some plot points developed in DOS that were completely dropped in BOT5A, like the Windlance. I just don't get that. LIke many I liked Tauriel as a concept, but could have done without the love story. I also thought it was fine for Legolas to be there, but he got way too much attention. Contrary to most, I have absolutely no opinion, one way or the other, on the Azog/Bolg storyline. I mean, they were there, okay, fine.


Now, what were my favorite moments? So many - pretty much everything in Bag End, from Dwalin's appearance to Thorin singing "Misty Mountains Cold!"EvilHeart Thoirn as a warrior king, instead of some stuffy ol' git that expected everyone to do everything for him - that made Thorin's corruption all the more painful, IMO. The Trollshaws - one of the best fights ever! Thorin v. Thranduil in Mirkwood - can you get more awesome than that? I don't THINK so! Barrels out of Bond - hilarious scene! Laketown, both the set and CGI, loved 'em both! SMAUG - need I say more? Both Ian McKellan and Andy Serkis reprising their roles as Gandalf & Gollum; I doubt I would have seen the movies at all if they'd been re-cast. And finally, Martin Freeman as young Bilbo. Perfect, inspired casting! Well, this whole paragraph probably belongs in the "Lovers" thread, oops!

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


lionoferebor
Rohan


May 17 2016, 10:08pm

Post #11 of 25 (1157 views)
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Keeping this short and to the point... [In reply to] Can't Post

I love that these films have brought us together. I hate that these films have divided us...at least that is the way it feels.


Omnigeek
Lorien


May 18 2016, 3:20am

Post #12 of 25 (1130 views)
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No hate, just reality [In reply to] Can't Post

It only becomes a hate thread if your definition of hate is anything but unmitigated love. The lengths some people will go to in order to avoid admitting to obvious problems like beardless (or nearly beardless) dwarves is rather amusing.


LSF
Gondor

May 18 2016, 3:57am

Post #13 of 25 (1121 views)
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what's an obvious problem for you... [In reply to] Can't Post

does not mean it has to be for others.


TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan


May 18 2016, 4:36am

Post #14 of 25 (1111 views)
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Yeah, I'm not sure one or two dwarves lacking the volume of beard that (for all we know) just about every other dwarf in M-e sports [In reply to] Can't Post

Qualifies as an 'obvious problem' with the storytelling, directing, acting, etc. of these movies.

"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War


LSF
Gondor

May 18 2016, 5:10am

Post #15 of 25 (1105 views)
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I was talking more generally... [In reply to] Can't Post

that "problems" are subjective Tongue

Though yeah, character appearance not matching what book says (or what I imagine from vague descriptions) is at the bottom of the "problems" categories for me in any movie/show based on a book.


TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan


May 18 2016, 5:42am

Post #16 of 25 (1100 views)
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I understood, but refocused my response [In reply to] Can't Post

So as to point out what you basically just said - that if we are going to get into discussing obvious problems, it would behoove Omnigeek (or whoever) to mention a problem that's obvious instead of something purely cosmetic that wasn't personally appreciated.

"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War


Noria
Gondor

May 18 2016, 11:33am

Post #17 of 25 (1079 views)
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Beardless Dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

I don’t bother trying to justify them because I don’t care a whit about something that is, to me, so trivial.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 18 2016, 2:15pm

Post #18 of 25 (1060 views)
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Beard length again? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It only becomes a hate thread if your definition of hate is anything but unmitigated love. The lengths some people will go to in order to avoid admitting to obvious problems like beardless (or nearly beardless) dwarves is rather amusing.





Yes, of course - the success or failure of this trilogy rests 100% on the length of Thorin's beard!




Really? The amount of time and energy some people spend complaining about beard length would be amusing, if it weren't so annoying at times! Maybe I'm not admitting it's a problem because I really don't think it's a problem.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


lionoferebor
Rohan


May 18 2016, 2:18pm

Post #19 of 25 (1053 views)
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In hindsight... [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not think Omnigeek is implying that beardless dwarves are the only problem with these films, rather it's one of several. Still in hindsight, when compared to bigger issues such as - but not limited to - unresolved plot lines, which are obvious problems with the storytelling, beardless dwarves are trivial.

And all it takes for a thread to turn into a 'hate thread' is a disagreement between two people. That said any thread has the potential to turn into a 'hate thread'. Even the 'Movie Lovers' thread is not immune.


TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan


May 18 2016, 8:30pm

Post #20 of 25 (1011 views)
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I would agree the one unresolved plotline is an obvious problem [In reply to] Can't Post

From my standpoint, there's probably three or so problems of the larger, vital variety (plotting, characterization, editing, etc.) and in an 8 1/2 hour film, that's a win. Snagging any combination of three or four "Harry Potter," "Star Wars," Marvel films or what-have-you, the number balloons (sometimes far) past 10.

Oh yes, and artistic endeavors/perceived flaws are subjective and varies depending on the viewer and yada yada with all such unspoken truths that end up stagnating progressive discussion.


But yeah nothing's immune. +2 points for freedom, -1 point for a likeminded safe-haven.

"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War


Omnigeek
Lorien


May 19 2016, 4:25am

Post #21 of 25 (986 views)
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No, it was far from the only problem with the movies [In reply to] Can't Post

The beardless dwarves was simply one of the most obvious signs showing how PJ was willing to ignore the text. However, my point was more about the people who are so desperate to have everyone absolutely love the films without reservations that they're unwilling to even admit those simple deviations from text. Responses above pretty much prove my point there. The rationalizations I've read for why beardless or nearly beardless dwarves are not only okay but really in keeping with the book are pure comedy gold. Heck, I've stated many times that I have much larger objections to the Kili-Tauriel-Legolas triangle, the Azog storyline, Thorin's hatred for Elves, how the central focus of the story on Bilbo changed, etc.

However, I posted in this thread rather than any of the other two threads simply because I don't "hate" the films any more than I love them. They are an excellent fantasy action-adventure epic if you ignore the supposed connection to the book and there are excellent moments even if you DO consider the connection to the books. Martin Freeman's performance was quite good and while I had issues with Galadriel going nuclear at Dol Guldur, the White Council meeting in Rivendell was very good. Bilbo's run to catch up to the Company was excellent and the subsequent scene with the bets (on whether Bilbo would eventually join them) was quite an acceptable addition. I appreciated having Beorn in this rendition (one of the points missing from the Rankin-Bass cartoon) and the change to make him the last of his race was relatively minor. While Dain's entrance was a bit of a caricature, I enjoyed the humor of it. Overall, they did "Riddles in the Dark" extremely well and the sad look they gave Gollum when Bilbo was thinking about slaying him with Sting was brilliant. All of the actors clearly went all out for these films -- the problems primarily lie in the script-writing and art direction (including costuming and over-the-top CGI).

There are enough problems with the films that I don't see ever buying copies but that is not the same as "hating" them. I simply don't love them the way I do the LOTR films -- but the lovers can go ahead and hate the "haters" if they want. Cool


dormouse
Half-elven


May 19 2016, 8:22am

Post #22 of 25 (969 views)
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It never ceases to amuse me..... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
However, my point was more about the people who are so desperate to have everyone absolutely love the films without reservations that they're unwilling to even admit those simple deviations from text. Responses above pretty much prove my point there. The rationalizations I've read for why beardless or nearly beardless dwarves are not only okay but really in keeping with the book are pure comedy gold.


...to see the lengths some posters will go to rather than accept that some people simply don't see things the way they do (as witness the above quotation). I've watched the films more times than I can count and haven't seen a single beardless dwarf. I've seen some very short beards, of course, and some unconventional ones, nothing like I'd imagined from reading the book and probably not like anything Tolkien imagined either (not being Tolkien, I'm not in a position to say this for certain). They have beards. I couldn't care less how long the beards are and as someone who has known the text more than fifty years I'll happily maintain that Tolkien left (some) more room for the imagination on this and other points than you're allowing. And if reading that makes you laugh - great - we're entertaining one another! Cool

But I sez what I sez because it's what I think and for no other reason, and I do get pretty fed up when other posters make assumptions like the ones you're making. For the record, please, I am not desperate to have everyone (or anyone) love the films if they don't, and I'm not 'unwilling to admit' anything - I'm not 'rationalising' anything either. I don't think anyone here is. We just have different points of view.

But hate? No. I'd never hate another person just because they don't see things the way I do; much less a film for not being my sort of film.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 19 2016, 5:21pm

Post #23 of 25 (929 views)
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Really? Let's check that: [In reply to] Can't Post

Below you said:
"The beardless dwarves was simply one of the most obvious signs showing how PJ was willing to ignore the text. However, my point was more about the people who are so desperate to have everyone absolutely love the films without reservations that they're unwilling to even admit those simple deviations from text." But that's not what you said before:


"The lengths some people will go to in order to avoid admitting to obvious problems like beardless (or nearly beardless) dwarves is rather amusing." See, nothing about deviation from text, only the assertion that beard length is a "obvious problem." Further, you said:


"Responses above pretty much prove my point there. The rationalizations I've read for why beardless or nearly beardless dwarves are not only okay but really in keeping with the book are pure comedy gold."


Nobody said the beard length was "in keeping with the book"; what we said was it ISN'T a problem to us. IMO, beard length simply isn't worthy of the hand-wringing that some of the haters seem to be lamenting over it. Further, I'm not interested in having everybody love the films without reservation - check my post below, even I have some issues (though beard length clearly isn't one of them). If you don't want to buy the movies, then by all means, don't buy them! But it seems to me at least, that the haters pile it on, accusing film lovers & likers alike of "rationalizations" or "unmitigated love", plus the constant griping about (IMO, admittedly) trivial things like beard length, until the discussion of whatever the original topic was devolves into a shouting match, prompting the possible need for separate threads. I really don't hate the haters, but sometimes I DO want to shout "GET OVER IT ALREADY!!!" No, this post is probably not helping much, my bad!Unsure

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan


May 19 2016, 10:11pm

Post #24 of 25 (895 views)
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Moreover, the posts read as though [In reply to] Can't Post

'Deviation' is synonomous with 'fault,' which I think is at the heart of this and many other misunderstandings. I would never claim the films deviated at points; they did, quite a bit.

Some of us, as has been stated, don't mind some or even most of these deviations. A teensy group of other fans, including myself, would argue many of these changes *improved* the overall plot for cinematic storytelling. And I would not start thrle discussion by interchanging 'deviations' with 'excellent attributes.'

That kind of thing requires some backing up.

"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War


TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan


May 19 2016, 10:30pm

Post #25 of 25 (890 views)
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The* Ugh. [In reply to] Can't Post

Time-sensitive editing. ¿Por que?

"Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right... even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, 'No, YOU move.'"
- Captain America: Civil War

 
 

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