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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
I wish the movies hadn't turned the characters into morons for the sake of the plot...
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Meneldor
Valinor


May 13 2016, 11:14pm

Post #126 of 234 (900 views)
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I have this personal rule: [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't criticize TV shows I don't watch, books I haven't read, or movies I haven't seen.

But, hey, that's just me.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


CaptainObvious
Rivendell

May 14 2016, 12:07am

Post #127 of 234 (885 views)
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Wizzardly can still comment on his opinion... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I don't criticize TV shows I don't watch, books I haven't read, or movies I haven't seen.

But, hey, that's just me.


Depending on how many highlights (the movie can be watched in it's in clips on youtube) wizzardly saw, he'd be able to comment accurately.

I dislike many things about the film, but there are a few things that were well done. My review of BOTFA is here: http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=804519;#804519


CaptainObvious
Rivendell

May 14 2016, 12:28am

Post #128 of 234 (870 views)
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Thorin still should have worn armor. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
"Yeah, he threw off the crown and Kingly robe as a symbolic way to rid himself of the sickness, but that's not why they dropped the heavy plate armor. The run was basically a suicide run, where speed was the most important thing. Yeah, the plate armor would probably have saved Thorin from being punctured in the lung, BUT I doubt he could have gotten up Ravenhill in that suit.


The fight was literally right outside where they lived. Hence, the suicide run wasn't long, thus they should have still worn armor. And Thorin got up Ravehill on a goat. So the argument that he wouldn't have been able to go up a hill if he'd been properly protected is faulty.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 14 2016, 1:19am

Post #129 of 234 (866 views)
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Thorin's suicide run armor [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Thorin still should have worn armor.


How does this asinine myth keep getting perpetuated that Thorin and his companions were not wearing armor when they charged out of the Gate? It is completely false. Thorin was wearing armor in his final scenes, it just wasn't the regal armor he wore in the Mountain.



Thorin charged into battle in a chain hauberk, thick leather overcoat, leather gloves, heavy boots, sword and octagonal shield. The other Dwarves all had light battle-armor as well.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 14 2016, 1:25am)


TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan


May 14 2016, 2:37am

Post #130 of 234 (846 views)
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It definitely is the better version, by several large steps [In reply to] Can't Post

If only for finishing the plot strands the TE left dangling in the air.

You should give it a whirl on some boring, rainy day indoors. It is, at the very least, entertaining.

"And you can trust me. Because I don't care enough about you to lie."
- Parks and Recreation


Omnigeek
Lorien


May 14 2016, 2:49am

Post #131 of 234 (842 views)
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Why? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Wizzardly, you should see the third film at least once. You can get it for free on the internet. And preferably see the extended version -- some people claim it's LOADS better than the theatrical version.

Just a suggestion, of course. Wink


Why? Why should he subject himself to watching the film that does the most of what he dislikes about this film adaptation?

I did watch the third film, both TE and EE, in the theaters and while I think his OP was bit over-the-top, I agree that this trilogy is a fine fantasy movie by itself but it fails as an adaptation of "The Hobbit". You and some others disagree with that point but none of you have offered any coherent defense to the specific complaints he's raised. Instead, I see debate against strawman arguments he hasn't raised and a lot of whining that anyone dare raise complaints about this trilogy.

The most common complaints I've seen on the boards are:
  1. The Kili-Tauriel-Legolas love triangle has no basis in any of the written literature and actually changes the nature of some of the written literature (e.g., Gimli's and Legolas' friendship).
  2. The unnecessary Azog side story.
  3. Many of the "dwarves" don't have proper beards and don't look like Tolkien-ish dwarves.
  4. There was too much material added from the writers' imaginations (as opposed to added from the LOTR Appendix)
  5. Alfrid was too much, too over-the-top.
I am not against changes or editing of the story as needed to adapt it to a new medium and I don't think wizzardly is either. I was onboard with PJ's stated intent to expand the story by bringing in additional elements from the LOTR Appendix. I fully understood his rationale to recut it to 3 films when he realized how much material he had. What some of us didn't like was the end product because of the points above.

I fully appreciate PJ's efforts with the LOTR trilogy and still rewatch those movies periodically, both in TE and EE. I appreciate his efforts in producing an action packed fantasy trilogy but I dislike it as an adaptation of The Hobbit. At first, my dislike was only mild but the more I've thought about the films themselves (mostly as part of the debates on these boards), the more I dislike them -- to the point I fully understand why wizzardly won't bother with watching BOFA and I personally will not be buying any version of them for my film library.

I thought the EEs for AUJ and DOS were improvements (not sure I'd say LOADS better) than the TEs but I actually felt the EE for BOFA was worse than the TE. More footage of trolls (who shouldn't even have been out in daylight) stomping on heads didn't make the film any better. The dwarven war wagon gave more screen time to some of the dwarves but did nothing to fix the underlying problems in the film -- in fact, it exacerbated them by continuing to dilute Bilbo's central role in the story.

wizzardly can do what he wants but I would say there are far more productive and enjoyable ways for a Tolkien fan to use 2+ hours than watching BOFA. I think I'd even watch Bakshi's lame attempt [shudder] over BOFA ...


LittleHobbit
Lorien

May 14 2016, 4:32am

Post #132 of 234 (817 views)
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Plot strands [In reply to] Can't Post

Regarding those loose ''plot strands'', do they show to whom all the gold is distributed to, and that Bard becomes the new Master of Esgaroth? Also, do they show what happens to Tauriel? I did not watch the extended version yet. But I heard some of these ''plot strands'' are still unresolved even in the extended version, which I would find somewhat disappointing. Frown Though it would not completely ruin the experience for me, I think.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 14 2016, 4:33am

Post #133 of 234 (820 views)
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NO it's not! [In reply to] Can't Post

[
The fight was literally right outside where they lived. Hence, the suicide run wasn't long, thus they should have still worn armor. And Thorin got up Ravehill on a goat. So the argument that he wouldn't have been able to go up a hill if he'd been properly protected is faulty.


Except if he'd worn the armor it would have changed the ending - not that I personally would have minded it, but that's beside the point. It doesn't matter that the fight was right outside their door, the Dwarves still needed to run FAST, and it has already been established that armor was HEAVY and hard to move in. So heavy that I doubt Thorin could have hopped up on that goat to begin with, so no my argument is not faulty!

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 14 2016, 4:35am

Post #134 of 234 (814 views)
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About Bard & Tauriel [In reply to] Can't Post

It's implied that Bard is now the leader, but there's no official coronation for him. Dain's coronation is brief. No, they don't really talk about the gold, and we don't really know what happens to Tauriel either. And we're still stuck with that exchange - "why does it hurt so much?" "Because it was real" - UGH!!!Frown

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan


May 14 2016, 5:18am

Post #135 of 234 (803 views)
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They don't depict the distribution of wealth, but it is implied [In reply to] Can't Post

They (briefly) show the coronation of Dain on the heels of the funeral for Fili, Kili and Thorin and the scene is linked to the one in the theatrical of the horns blowing in Dale with all of the people of Laketown looking out towards the mountain. This implies the two cultures are at peace with one another which in and of itself implies the new citizens of Dale were compensated for their loss. It's hard to imagine - with the new scene and the editing together of this scene with the preexisting one - Bard going, "Well, that was a moving ceremony. I suppose we ought to starve and die off now."

We do not see Tauriel again after her words with Thranduil, but I don't believe we need to. Her arc ends with her coming to the realization that because her feelings towards Kili were legitimate, the pain she feels over his mortality isn't going to dissipate any time soon (the oft-maligned "Because it was real" dialogue that I personally found so fitting and appropriate).

However, we never hear again of Thranduil's gems and, though an argument can be made that he rightfully reprioritizes said gems on the battlefield, I think this is something that should have been dealt with (and could have been, quite quickly). As I've posted elsewhere on the boards, this is the one thing that's just left hanging by the time the credits roll. Whether or not this hurts the viewing experience depends on the importance you place on this plot thread, I suppose.

"And you can trust me. Because I don't care enough about you to lie."
- Parks and Recreation


CaptainObvious
Rivendell

May 14 2016, 8:54am

Post #136 of 234 (791 views)
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Not a myth. They were poorly prepared, when they had more than enough opportunity to prepare properly. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Thorin still should have worn armor.


How does this asinine myth keep getting perpetuated that Thorin and his companions were not wearing armor when they charged out of the Gate? It is completely false. Thorin was wearing armor in his final scenes, it just wasn't the regal armor he wore in the Mountain.



Thorin charged into battle in a chain hauberk, thick leather overcoat, leather gloves, heavy boots, sword and octagonal shield. The other Dwarves all had light battle-armor as well.


No helmets for these guys. Helmets are for lowly dwarves. At least Dain's excuse was his helmet fell off. Kili looks like he could have used a shield. His arm sure looks nekkid without it.

[oversized pic deleted]. Please see picture posting guidelines here.

(This post was edited by Altaira on May 14 2016, 7:38pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


May 14 2016, 8:56am

Post #137 of 234 (790 views)
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Clearly I'd be in no condition to return and finish it.... [In reply to] Can't Post

But before I passed judgement on the part of the meal that I'd eaten (and only the part I'd eaten - I wouldn't be qualified to comment on the rest) I'd consult a doctor to find out why I'd been taken ill. After all, if the problem was an attack of gastroenteritis or a previously undiscovered allergy it would hardly be the restaurant's fault, would it?

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


CaptainObvious
Rivendell

May 14 2016, 9:16am

Post #138 of 234 (787 views)
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Yes, it is... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
[
The fight was literally right outside where they lived. Hence, the suicide run wasn't long, thus they should have still worn armor. And Thorin got up Ravehill on a goat. So the argument that he wouldn't have been able to go up a hill if he'd been properly protected is faulty.


Except if he'd worn the armor it would have changed the ending - not that I personally would have minded it, but that's beside the point. It doesn't matter that the fight was right outside their door, the Dwarves still needed to run FAST, and it has already been established that armor was HEAVY and hard to move in. So heavy that I doubt Thorin could have hopped up on that goat to begin with, so no my argument is not faulty!


A host of dwarves just as heavily armed as Thorin, hopped up on their goats with no problem, and later followed Thorin in the charge against the orcs. Thorin's company looks even dumber when you consider that they had AN ENTIRE ARMORY from which to choose something suitable.

This wouldn't have changed the ending. Tolkien's ending specifically states that the dwarves all had armor on, but Thorin and his nephews died anyway. My problem is the way Jackson set it up, made it look like the dwarves didn't have much sense.

If only it were possible to wear helmets, swords and shields and run at the same time. Oh wait...!

(This post was edited by Altaira on May 15 2016, 4:47am)


CaptainObvious
Rivendell

May 14 2016, 9:20am

Post #139 of 234 (788 views)
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Even though you're talking to Wizzardly... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But before I passed judgement on the part of the meal that I'd eaten (and only the part I'd eaten - I wouldn't be qualified to comment on the rest) I'd consult a doctor to find out why I'd been taken ill. After all, if the problem was an attack of gastroenteritis or a previously undiscovered allergy it would hardly be the restaurant's fault, would it?


If other people also get sick from eating the same dish, that means it's not just you.


Smaug the iron
Gondor


May 14 2016, 9:33am

Post #140 of 234 (783 views)
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Trolls [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
More footage of trolls (who shouldn't even have been out in daylight)

Why should the trolls not be in daylight? They are not the same trolls as Tom, Bert and William, they are the same trolls who attacked Aragorn at the Black gate and can be out in the daylight.


dormouse
Half-elven


May 14 2016, 10:05am

Post #141 of 234 (782 views)
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Though it could possibly be... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the result of an epidemic of gastroenteritis or some kind of vomiting virus, in which case the restaurant would still not be at fault.

Though wizzardly's example didn't include illness on the part of other diners. I could also point out to him - and you, if you want to play - that if'd gone two-thirds of the way through the meal that tells me that it tasted good up to that point and I was enjoying it. Anything else, and I wouldn't have eaten more than the first couple of mouthfuls (at which point, please note that I wouldn't pronounce judgement on the whole meal. As Otaku pointed out, the dessert might have been nice. I'd just have said that I wasn't going to eat any more because I didn't like the bit I'd already had.)

Something else to consider if you really want to pursue this wonderfully dotty analogy of the unfinished meal and the mysteriously incapacitated diner....

The meal itself may have been perfectly OK. It may even have been top quality five-star restaurant fare, prepared by a top chef using only the finest ingredients. But if it was something I personally didn't like, or it contained something I was allergic to, it would still not be suitable for me. And that wouldn't diminish its quality in any way - or give me the right to complain that this restaurant was serving rubbish - would it?

Over to you, chaps! Wink

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


CaptainObvious
Rivendell

May 14 2016, 11:13am

Post #142 of 234 (770 views)
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Re: Restaurant [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...the result of an epidemic of gastroenteritis or some kind of vomiting virus, in which case the restaurant would still not be at fault.

Though wizzardly's example didn't include illness on the part of other diners. I could also point out to him - and you, if you want to play - that if'd gone two-thirds of the way through the meal that tells me that it tasted good up to that point and I was enjoying it. Anything else, and I wouldn't have eaten more than the first couple of mouthfuls (at which point, please note that I wouldn't pronounce judgement on the whole meal. As Otaku pointed out, the dessert might have been nice. I'd just have said that I wasn't going to eat any more because I didn't like the bit I'd already had.)

Something else to consider if you really want to pursue this wonderfully dotty analogy of the unfinished meal and the mysteriously incapacitated diner....

The meal itself may have been perfectly OK. It may even have been top quality five-star restaurant fare, prepared by a top chef using only the finest ingredients. But if it was something I personally didn't like, or it contained something I was allergic to, it would still not be suitable for me. And that wouldn't diminish its quality in any way - or give me the right to complain that this restaurant was serving rubbish - would it?

Over to you, chaps! Wink


Yeah, but you might have eaten more of the meal than you would have normally, because the cook has never let you down before. So while at another restaurant you would have realized that something is wrong with the meal after a couple bites, you only realize it at THIS restaurant after you're already sick. And it's a shame. You were looking forward to the meal. You could smell it cooking from the kitchen. The chef had never let you down before. The first couple bites weren't quite what you expected, but you wanted to give the cook some slack based off his track record.

Sure, the part of the meat that was cooked properly tasted great. But once you eat the part that wasn't properly done and your stomach gets sick, you're going to vomit the whole thing up, good or bad...After which you find out that the cook knew he didn't have time to cook the meal properly, as the recipe called an hour for the meat to cook, and he only had thirty five minutes.

"But I trusted you!" You say to the chef. "You added a whole bunch of ingredients that radically changed the recipe, and that still didn't change the fact that the meat was undercooked! And now I'm sick!"

"So am I!" Another customer yells.

"Me too!"

Now there's a whole bunch of you.

"How dare you attack this poor cook?" yells one particular customer who has a crush on the cook. "So what if the meal made you sick? The silverware is beautiful! And you didn't eat the last part of the meat. Just because everything you ate made you sick, doesn't mean you shouldn't eat everything on your plate."

"I'm too busy throwing up to eat anything else here," you say. "Such a shame. I thought he was the best cook ever, but now I'm going to have to bash him on Yelp."

Then you put on a helmet and make a suicide run out of the restaurant.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 14 2016, 1:12pm

Post #143 of 234 (748 views)
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To arm, or not to arm... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
No helmets for these guys. Helmets are for lowly dwarves. At least Dain's excuse was his helmet fell off. Kili looks like he could have used a shield. His arm sure looks nekkid without it.


Nonetheless, the Dwarves were still wearing armor. It is immaterial whether you think that they were sufficiently armored. They were not unprotected.

It's a very simple question: Were Thorin and his companions wearing armor when they charged out of Erebor? Yes/No.

Answer: Yes. Myth busted.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 14 2016, 1:21pm)


Noria
Gondor

May 14 2016, 1:26pm

Post #144 of 234 (746 views)
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Helmets [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
No helmets for these guys. Helmets are for lowly dwarves. At least Dain's excuse was his helmet fell off. Kili looks like he could have used a shield. His arm sure looks nekkid without it.


The main characters in such movies as these rarely if ever wear helmets. It's just a cinematic convention.

I prefer it that way because I like to able to identify the characters I'm trying to follow.


Avandel
Half-elven


May 14 2016, 2:31pm

Post #145 of 234 (735 views)
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And "real" warriors often dumped their armor [In reply to] Can't Post

not that I am going to go dig the links up, but Amazon has some nice free, albeit dated, books on armor.

I was surprised to read thanks the the weight, movement and visibility issues that soldiers often shed their plate armor during campaigns. A piece here, a piece there. According to one book I read, it's a reason it's difficult for museums to get an entire intact set of plate armor.


Quote
Mail armour provided an effective defence against slashing blows by edged weapons and penetration by thrusting and piercing weapons; in fact, a study conducted at the Royal Armouries at Leeds concluded that "it is almost impossible to penetrate using any conventional medieval weapon."[37][38]....

Some evidence indicates that during armoured combat, the intention was to actually get around the armour rather than through it—according to a study of skeletons found in Visby, Sweden, a majority of the skeletons showed wounds on less well protected legs.[39]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_%28armour%29

This article DOES go on to comment that helms were, in fact, often combined with chain mailCool, but re the films IMO Thorin's perspective on tactics by then I would think is far different than Dain'sShocked - e.g. Dain shows up and as far as he knew, it was going to be a more or less equal fight w. some elves and men; Thorn would have known the importance of the dwarf king as a rallying point in their culture and that by then the battle was something else entirely, and hardly "equal" ("Dain is surrounded...they're being slaughtered")

So a tactic where the "royal dwarves" appear in a combination of brigandine and chain mail, where they are both visible to the other dwarves ("to the king!") and able to move fast and take out a lot of orcs, at that point, may have been "suicidal" but it was "suicide" with a good chance behind it ("I'm going to take out their leader"). And I think we see this in the film, where Thorin & co. spearhead a wedge and break up the line of orcs and trolls that had backed Dain and his soldiers against the walls.

Culturally as well, the dwarves being badasses I think by then needed to SEE Thorin. In theory some of them may have never seen the "royals" they were dying to defend. I suppose the dwarves would have seen Thorin, kind of, if he had charged out in gold armor, but "everyone" knows that gold is a soft metal and wouldn't be my first choice for "real" armor. Makes impressive ceremonial armor, but what kind of impression is that, standing on your walls in your gold plate armor + helmet, while everyone else is doing the fightingLaugh - the movie I think makes that point as well.

Doesn't make much of an impression either if you charge out in your nice shiny helm and a troll clunks you over the head because your periperal vision is blocked - that would be kind of demoralizing I should think.Angelic


wizzardly
Rohan


May 14 2016, 2:44pm

Post #146 of 234 (731 views)
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Hobbit Fricassee [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, Chef PJ's concoction has caused many to fall ill, as can be evidenced by multitudes of comments on websites such as youtube that offer samplings of his heinous dish. I think for me the fact that I made it through the second movie was partially due to complete and total disbelief....I was in shock. I didn't really enjoy the first course, however, a glimmer of hope still remained... the second course was where it really hit me. His LotR was far from perfect, but was overall satisfying, and I would find myself returning from time to time. So I was in complete shock that his Hobbit turned out so poorly, being that it is a much simpler dish. It seemed such an easy task for such an accomplished chef as Che PJ.


Avandel
Half-elven


May 14 2016, 3:02pm

Post #147 of 234 (728 views)
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And then [In reply to] Can't Post

the manager apologetically brought the dessert cart to the large party (dressed in some sort of Renaissance costumes) happily finishing their meals. Some were wistfully staring at their cleaned plates and the few crumbs left in the scone baskets, debating on whether they should order take-out so they could enjoy the same again at home. WITH extras.

"Did he seriously claim food poisoning?" exclaimed one of the party, wondering if would look too *greedy* to snatch up both the chocolate cake AND the white chocolate cheesecake. With raspberry sauce. Tongue

"Well, you put something out, and you hope folks like it..."

"Oh, we do, we do!" exclaimed another in the party dressed in a grey wizard hat who was eying the black bottom pie. "Some of these changes to your recipes have been amazing!"

"Anyway, not everybody is going to like everything," said a third diner. "Even IF you have one of the most successful restaurants around. BTW, could I order some take-out? I love having your food - it's great to settle down with a sumptuous meal after watching this week's Game of Thrones..."Angelic


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


May 14 2016, 5:03pm

Post #148 of 234 (713 views)
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Seems everyone's missed (avoided?) the obvious one here... [In reply to] Can't Post

"Because it was pants." Tongue




"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


dormouse
Half-elven


May 14 2016, 5:14pm

Post #149 of 234 (709 views)
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Three cheers, Avandel.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...for bringing the game to a satisfying conclusion. I'll eat in this restaurant again often! Smile

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


wizzardly
Rohan


May 14 2016, 5:24pm

Post #150 of 234 (704 views)
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to each their own [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally, I prefer to sup at only the finest of establishments, so from here on its Master Chef J.R.R. Tolkien for me! I suppose it was rather silly to suppose that anyone else could come anywhere near the level of expertise that he has delivered for all of these years.

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