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squire
Half-elven
May 13 2016, 4:58pm
Post #1 of 17
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**The Battle of the Pelennor Fields** - 4. “Thus came Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elessar, Isildur’s heir, out of the Paths of the Dead, borne upon a wind from the Sea”
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We have been reviewing the course of the battle of the Pelennor Fields in chapter 6 of Book V of The Lord of the Rings. Today I want to spend some time on how Aragorn’s unexpected arrival on the battlefield is treated. As we saw in my first post, his appearance is both unexpected and decisive. It allows the outnumbered forces of Rohan to regroup and crush the Haradrim from two sides, and those of Minas Tirith to attack the Morgul reinforcements without fear of the Haradrim in their rear. Even more than the tactical reinforcement, we are told, it is the blow to Mordor’s morale that is decisive.
Here is my summary of how it goes, and some questions.
As we have already seen, Eomer’s mad charge into the Harad forces, following Theoden’s death, has gone sour, even with the emergence of the forces of the City to back him up. The forces of Morgul arrive and the mumakil strengthen the Haradrim’s defense. Suddenly as the morning wears on and the weather clears, first those in the city and then Eomer himself can see ships approaching from the south: “a fleet borne up on the wind: dromunds, and ships of great draught with many oars, and with black sails bellying in the breeze.” The city calls a vain retreat to the walls, but Eomer determines to go down fighting and dismounts to form “a great shield-wall at the last, and stand, and fight there on foot till all fell.” He sings his own funeral-lay and holds up his sword to defy the black ships.
A. Not to nit-pick or anything, but aren’t there supposed to be fords across the Anduin at Osgiliath, which might suggest that sea-going “ships of great draught” would not be able to sail to Minas Tirith?
All at once Eomer gives a whoop and tosses his sword in the air! The lead ship displays a flag bearing the White Tree of Gondor, along with the Seven Stars and crown that proclaim the House of Elendil the High King. The latter signs have not been shown by a warlord in over a thousand years, yet all know it. Thus does Aragorn proclaim his arrival to claim the kingship of Gondor, “out of the Paths of the Dead, borne upon a wind from the Sea to the kingdom of Gondor.”
B. How does the symbolism of Aragorn’s arrival from “the Dead” and “from the Sea” relate to other myths of “The Return of the King”?
C. Do we hear anywhere else of why “Seven Stars” are part of the heraldry of Elendil?
D. What is the significance of the details of the gems and metals that Arwen used to make the standard?
Our heroes rejoice! “The mirth of the Rohirrim was a torrent of laughter and a flashing of swords, and the joy and wonder of the City was a music of trumpets and a ringing of bells.” And the villains gnash their teeth and mutter: curses, foiled again. “The hosts of Mordor were seized with bewilderment, and a great wizardry it seemed to them that their own ships should be filled with their foes; and a black dread fell on them, knowing that the tides of fate had turned against them and their doom was at hand.”
E. Is this an ‘eucatastrophe’, as Tolkien defines it? If so, why is it so often neglected when discussing Tolkien’s identification of the device compared to, say, the arrival of the Rohirrim at dawn, or the awakening of Samwise at Cormallen? If not, why not?
F. The Rohirrim laugh and draw sword – Minas Tirith plays music. How does this reflect the two different cultures of the allies, and do we see such contrasts anywhere else in this part of the story?
G. Is Tolkien saying the City blew trumpets and rang bells, or that its joy and wonder was as if it had done so?
H. How much of the demoralization of the Mordor forces can be imagined as coming from the common unthinking troops, and how much from their evil but more educated commanders? In other words, is Tolkien right that an army as a whole can be said to act and react as one being in the midst of a battle?
The battle turns as the forces of the West advance, and the armies of the southern fiefs debark at the Harlond. Our heroes of the Fellowship and the Dunedain are there, last seen in Chapter 2; and also “a great valour” of troops from the rest of Gondor. Aragorn leads them all, wielding “the Flame of the West, Andúril like a new fire kindled, Narsil re-forged as deadly as of old.”
I. An amphibious army does not just pull into a port and sally forth. Couldn’t the forces of Morgul have seized the Harlond quays and forts and denied the ships the ability to tie up at the piers?
J. What are the stars on the brows of Elladan and Elrohir, and how do they relate to the “Star of Elendil” that Aragorn wears on his brow?
K. What does “dour-handed” mean in describing the Rangers of the North?
L. When the forces of the South arrived to reinforce Minas Tirith in Chapter 1, their leaders were identified in the classic epic tradition of cataloging the warriors. Why does this catalog here not name the commanders of the “folk of Lebennin and Lamedon” etc. who follow Aragorn and the Dunedain?
Aragorn and Eomer “at length” meet and have a little chat. Aragorn reminds Eomer that he had said, we’ll meet again, “though all the hosts of Mordor lay between us”. Eomer typically concedes with a rain of Rohirric folk-wisdom clichés, “Yeah, well, I didn’t believe you then but I’m really, really glad you’re here anyway, cause things have been pretty bad.” Aragorn says to save the details for later: “let us avenge it, ere we speak of it!” Then, we are told, “they rode back to battle together.”
M. How does this compare to all the other moments in the book where our heroes meet up again after being separated and having adventures?
N. Wouldn’t the two commanders be more concerned with directing and coordinating their forces against still-overwhelming odds, than with musing on the nature of fate, prophecy, and friendship?
O. Eomer “strode” south on foot with his men, and Aragorn and his men “leaped” from the ships. No horses involved, evidently, so how did they ‘ride’ back together?
At the end of the battle (as discussed in my first post), Aragorn and Eomer and Imrahil ride back to the City “unscathed, for such was their fortune and the skill and might of their arms, and few indeed had dared to abide them or look on their faces in the hour of their wrath.” What follows, however, is a list of those who did die in the battle, including many of the captains of the South who came to Minas Tirith in Chapter 1; the only one we have met as a character, even in the slightest, is Halbarad, the leader of Aragorn’s Rangers of the North.
P. Is the list of the dead, contrasted to the heroes’ not being hurt in the slightest, sufficient to rebut charges that LotR’s fantasy setting is completely divorced from the realities of war?
A final thought for now:
Q. Is this a particularly ‘English’ epic in featuring an instance of the use of amphibious attack – a la D-Day, in the latest of a host of English strategic offenses by sea – to win a victory against a continental enemy to the East?
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enanito
Rohan
May 13 2016, 6:44pm
Post #2 of 17
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A couple quick thoughts, this is a great chapter discussion!
A. Not to nit-pick or anything, but aren’t there supposed to be fords across the Anduin at Osgiliath, which might suggest that sea-going “ships of great draught” would not be able to sail to Minas Tirith?
Sounds like the deep river channel extended up to the southern tip of the Pelennor, after which continuing north you'd encounter the fords at Osgiliath.
I. An amphibious army does not just pull into a port and sally forth. Couldn’t the forces of Morgul have seized the Harlond quays and forts and denied the ships the ability to tie up at the piers?
Possibly Aragorn considered that exact possibility, which is why he only unfurled his standard at the moment the ships made the port turn into the quays at Harlond. Any enemies stationed there would then have little time to overcome their shock and organize a defense of the piers.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 13 2016, 7:42pm
Post #3 of 17
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That's why the docks at Harlond are important.
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Yes, Osgiliath is upstream from the quays, and the fords are upstream further (we'll see them referenced on the way to the Black Gate).
The Enemy didn't bother to seize the Harlond quays because they "knew" they were holding the river downstream, and expected reinforcements from that direction, not an attack!
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Meneldor
Valinor
May 13 2016, 11:09pm
Post #5 of 17
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C. Do we hear anywhere else of why “Seven Stars” are part of the heraldry of Elendil?
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I'd hazard a guess that the seven stars are the constellation known as the Sickle (Big Dipper) that was hung in the northern skies as a warning to Morgoth.
L. When the forces of the South arrived to reinforce Minas Tirith in Chapter 1, their leaders were identified in the classic epic tradition of cataloging the warriors. Why does this catalog here not name the commanders of the “folk of Lebennin and Lamedon” etc. who follow Aragorn and the Dunedain?
Can you imagine how that would break the pacing of the story? All narrative action would come to a crashing halt just when the action is most fierce. Tolkien the poet would never destroy the rhythm of his tale with such a digression at this moment. Besides, we've already learned all we really need to know about Lebennin and Lamedon. In the immortal words of Monty Python, "Get on with it!"
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
May 14 2016, 8:10am
Post #6 of 17
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Is a little similar to Imrahil's charge a few days ago in the initial attack. In the fact that there is some early success, but the Enemy soon counters hus with backup.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 14 2016, 8:34am
Post #7 of 17
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A. Not to nit-pick or anything, but aren’t there supposed to be fords across the Anduin at Osgiliath, which might suggest that sea-going “ships of great draught” would not be able to sail to Minas Tirith?
Yes that would appear to be a problem. But I suppose "great draft" is comparative, and less of a thing in the medieval period that it would be later. Possibly much of Aragorn's fleet is shallower-draft vessels (like viking ones, or those of Greek Heroes) able to get into shallow water. If so, that would help solve:
I. An amphibious army does not just pull into a port and sally forth. Couldn’t the forces of Morgul have seized the Harlond quays and forts and denied the ships the ability to tie up at the piers?
Maybe not every vessel needs port facilities - I'm imagining that much of the fleet could beach, or stop in shallow enough water for the crew to leap out without having to swim. They could seize the dock area for the bigger vessels, assisted by archery from the big ships. But the forces of Mordor don't seem to contest the landing very effectively - things have got rather confused, I expect. Aragorn has achieve surprise, some of the Mordor forces are suffering because they don't like the light, and the others are allied troops from vassal states, and their commanders might struggle to work together by local initiative.
B. How does the symbolism of Aragorn’s arrival from “the Dead” and “from the Sea” relate to other myths of “The Return of the King”?
C. Do we hear anywhere else of why “Seven Stars” are part of the heraldry of Elendil?
D. What is the significance of the details of the gems and metals that Arwen used to make the standard?
Aragron seems to be re-enacting the arrival of Elendil. (In a vision in Galadriel's mirror, didn't Frodo see the one segue into the other?)
If I recall we discussed the Seven Stars before - it was inconclusive, but they seem to refer to seven vessels of Elendil's fleet (or, the seven vessels that had the distinction of carrying a palantir). Durin, of course also used the heraldry of a crown and stars - not sure whether that is more than just a co-incidence.
The standard is proper fancy with all those precious materials. It also catches the light in a remarkable way - a bit like Eowyn was catching the light just now. As there, one can read this as a supernatural sign of divine favour, or not as one pleases.
J. What are the stars on the brows of Elladan and Elrohir, and how do they relate to the “Star of Elendil” that Aragorn wears on his brow?
K. What does “dour-handed” mean in describing the Rangers of the North?
L. When the forces of the South arrived to reinforce Minas Tirith in Chapter 1, their leaders were identified in the classic epic tradition of cataloging the warriors. Why does this catalog here not name the commanders of the “folk of Lebennin and Lamedon” etc. who follow Aragorn and the Dunedain?
I'm guessing that elven leaders (and Numenoreans in imitation) wear some kind of jewelled circlet as a recognition symbol in battle - more practical than a crown. Or maybe (but I'm making this up) they are a bit like Japanese Hachimaki - a headband worn by someone undertaking a supreme effort of any kind (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hachimaki ) Maybe putting your star on shows you really mean business. Anyhow, it serves to emphasise Aragorn's elvish connections.
I'd imagined 'dour-handed' meant tough fighter. But that's just a guess.
I agree with mendelor - Tolkien doesn't want to interrupt the battle to give out army lists.
M. How does this compare to all the other moments in the book where our heroes meet up again after being separated and having adventures?
N. Wouldn’t the two commanders be more concerned with directing and coordinating their forces against still-overwhelming odds, than with musing on the nature of fate, prophecy, and friendship?
O. Eomer “strode” south on foot with his men, and Aragorn and his men “leaped” from the ships. No horses involved, evidently, so how did they ‘ride’ back together?
Weren't there also similar laconic comments at Helm's Deep when Eomer bumps into Aragorn, or Legolas meets Gimli. I think it as British as Spiderman's wisecracks are American.
I suppose someone went and got horses while Eomer and Aragorn were having a chat. Somebody would have had to hold the horses when the Rohirrim dismounted to form a shieldwall, and maybe the Grey Company brought their horses and have now got them ashore.
P. Is the list of the dead, contrasted to the heroes’ not being hurt in the slightest, sufficient to rebut charges that LotR’s fantasy setting is completely divorced from the realities of war?
I think Tolkien offers us plenty of suffering (at the time and later) and carnage to make that point. We also read names here that we only otherwise read as the allied troops march in to Minas Tirith just a short while ago. I find that poignant.
Q. Is this a particularly ‘English’ epic in featuring an instance of the use of amphibious attack – a la D-Day, in the latest of a host of English strategic offenses by sea – to win a victory against a continental enemy to the East?
Don't think so, on 2 counts. First , I think you mean 'British' not 'English'.  Second, we're a set of Islands, so until recently the only way to attack or be attacked had to involve ships. D-Day was hardly an exclusively British affair though, and amphibious assaults of Tolkien's lifetime included Gallipoli (ANZAC), numerous battles in the Pacific War and some in the Korean war. So you could equally argue that it was very American, or very Norse.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377
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A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 14 2016, 11:49am
Post #8 of 17
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C. Do we hear anywhere else of why “Seven Stars” are part of the heraldry of Elendil?
I'd hazard a guess that the seven stars are the constellation known as the Sickle (Big Dipper) that was hung in the northern skies as a warning to Morgoth. Didn’t Tolkien mention in one of his Letters that a rhyme had been floating around in his mind: Seven Stars and Seven Stones and One White Tree, but he didn’t know what it meant until he saw the palantir dropped from Orthanc?
I had always thought that the Seven Stars related to the Seven Stones that Elendil brought from Numenor, and that the stars signified the constellation Orion (the hunter) – 2 hands, 2 feet, 3 belt. But it could have also been the Big Dipper?
"I never said most of the things I said."
- Yogi & Me
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a.s.
Valinor
May 14 2016, 1:21pm
Post #9 of 17
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...never one to let an old habit die without reason.
OK I am thinking you might be going for the arrival of Elendil out of the destruction of Numenor ("death") born across the waters on the raging sea.
It is also like the eventual return of the once and future king, Arthur, who is coming back to Englad from his burial place ("death") on the Isle of Avalon (so will arrive across the sea as well).
Also, the arrival "from the dead", to stretch an analogy that may or may not have been unintentional, there is Jesus, who traveled to Hell (the Paths of the Dead) and then returned briefly to Earth prior to his ascension into Heaven.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 14 2016, 1:31pm
Post #10 of 17
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B. How does the symbolism of Aragorn’s arrival from “the Dead” and “from the Sea” relate to other myths of “The Return of the King”? Do you mean the book called "The Return of the King" (so another myth of some kind found or alluded to in the book), or are you asking about other myths about the return of the king (i.e. Aragorn) OR YET do you mean other myths on the theme of "the Return of the King" in general? I mean, if I'm gonna answer and be wrong, I'd like to not look too ridiculous in the attempt anyhow. LOL.  a.s.
One other myth that seems to me to be ripe for comparison is the legend of King Arthur returning from Avalon at a time of need.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, the "Gossiper of the Gods"
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a.s.
Valinor
May 14 2016, 1:44pm
Post #11 of 17
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because great minds think alike!! :-) //
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"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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hanne
Lorien
May 14 2016, 3:06pm
Post #12 of 17
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This is a recurrent motif with Tolkien, isn't it?
In the fairy tale about the cake (I wish I could remember the name) the hero gains a star on his forehead and is thereby empowered to access fairyland. And Aragorn has come through the world of death back to life.
Earendil is said to have (still does?) worn the Silmaril on his brow, and Aragorn and Arwen are the continuations of Earendil's line.
It seems to mark a person with blessings and powers from otherworldly sources: someone mighty not just in this world but in another. Just as Bilbo was meant to be the custodian of the Ring, Aragorn is meant to renew the kingship of Gondor and Arnor.
Re the twins, I suppose they signify their dual status - half-Elven, they walk in two worlds themselves.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 14 2016, 7:12pm
Post #13 of 17
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...the stars echo their devotion to Elbereth (the "star kindler").
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InTheChair
Rohan
May 14 2016, 10:23pm
Post #14 of 17
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A. Not to nit-pick or anything, but aren’t there supposed to be fords across the Anduin at Osgiliath, which might suggest that sea-going “ships of great draught” would not be able to sail to Minas Tirith?
I thought they were bridges and not fords, and that the enemy crossed on rafts and barges fter the last bridge was thrown down. Even so if ships could not reach so far the Numenoreans would not have constructed Harlond.
D. What is the significance of the details of the gems and metals that Arwen used to make the standard?
To explain how the device reflected the sun-light to become visible all the way from the city
G. Is Tolkien saying the City blew trumpets and rang bells, or that its joy and wonder was as if it had done so?
There seems no reason not to take it literally.
H. How much of the demoralization of the Mordor forces can be imagined as coming from the common unthinking troops, and how much from their evil but more educated commanders? In other words, is Tolkien right that an army as a whole can be said to act and react as one being in the midst of a battle?
Tolkien spend entire chapters that demonstrate even the most common Ork is not unthinking. I am not familiar with all the processes that make or break armies, but history proves they are apt to lose morale.
I. An amphibious army does not just pull into a port and sally forth. Couldn’t the forces of Morgul have seized the Harlond quays and forts and denied the ships the ability to tie up at the piers?
The Legions of Morgul were close by the walls of the city and so could not have done this. They also had no experience of naval warfare. The Haradrim might have attempted sopmething if they had any of their Sailor folk present, but seems to have consisted more of Cavalry and Oliphaunt troops as well as infantry. The naval branch of the Haradrim were defeated at Pelargir.
J. What are the stars on the brows of Elladan and Elrohir, and how do they relate to the “Star of Elendil” that Aragorn wears on his brow?
Probably circlets with some kind of jewel in them. I think Elrond wears something similiar.
K. What does “dour-handed” mean in describing the Rangers of the North?
I take it to mean that they are determined and uncompromising in their battle with the forces of evil. You won't scare them away, you'd have to beat them down.
L. When the forces of the South arrived to reinforce Minas Tirith in Chapter 1, their leaders were identified in the classic epic tradition of cataloging the warriors. Why does this catalog here not name the commanders of the “folk of Lebennin and Lamedon” etc. who follow Aragorn and the Dunedain?
Angbor the captain of Lamedon remained in the south to defend the provinces. Aragorn meets him at Linhir. The captain of Lebennin is not mentioned, unless this also goes to Forlong of Lossarnach.
N. Wouldn’t the two commanders be more concerned with directing and coordinating their forces against still-overwhelming odds, than with musing on the nature of fate, prophecy, and friendship?
They do so quickly enough.
O. Eomer “strode” south on foot with his men, and Aragorn and his men “leaped” from the ships. No horses involved, evidently, so how did they ‘ride’ back together?
Eomers intent had been to make a shield wall. Though it is never confirmed that he did so the wording that he strode south might suggest it, and that the horses were still within the shield wall and he could have re-mounted coming back. Aragorn had his own horse riding to Pelargir. It is not mentioned if the horses were brought on the ships. It might have been possible but he is mentioned coming in on foot from Harlond. If his own horse was not with him he must have mounted one of the Rohirrims.
Q. Is this a particularly ‘English’ epic in featuring an instance of the use of amphibious attack – a la D-Day, in the latest of a host of English strategic offenses by sea – to win a victory against a continental enemy to the East?
Wouldn't call it an amphibious attack as such. The Quays were unprotected and fighting would not have begun until Aragorn and part of his force had disembarked, assembled and pushed north out of Harlond.
(This post was edited by InTheChair on May 14 2016, 10:26pm)
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
May 17 2016, 6:14pm
Post #15 of 17
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K. What does “dour-handed” mean in describing the Rangers of the North?
I always assumed it meant 'no-nonsense' and that they were trained enough to kill with terrible efficiency. No movement or energy wasted-- every move and breath calculated to bring death to their foes.
Sing a song of long lament
The days be past, the years are spent
The flames of fire, on funeral pyre
The warrior's soul it's wing'd way hath sent
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a.s.
Valinor
May 17 2016, 8:08pm
Post #16 of 17
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Encyclopedia of Arda says "steady-handed"
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Can't speak for or against the veracity of E. of A., but that seems like a good definition to this reader.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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No One in Particular
Lorien
May 17 2016, 9:09pm
Post #17 of 17
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Merriam Webster online gives the following definitions;
1. Stern or harsh
2. Obstinate or unyielding
3. Gloomy or sullen
Seems like obstinate, gloomy, unyielding, or some combination thereof might be what JRRT was going for here. Although I'm sure that the Rangers could be quite stern if the situation called for it. I don't think they would be harsh or sullen though.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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