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squire
Half-elven
May 12 2016, 11:03am
Post #1 of 18
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**The Battle of the Pelennor Fields** - 3. ‘Farewell, Master Holbytla!’ he said. ‘My body is broken. I go to my fathers.’
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Today, in our ongoing discussion of Chapter 6 of Book V, I want to look at the Good-byes: the time spent on those who are dying, their final words, and the reactions of those who witness the deaths. As always, I will give summaries of the action and then ask a few questions. I expect you will have some questions too, so pitch in!
As I am now, unfortunately, short of time due to being called out of town in mid-week, these next few posts will be without what NZ Strider once called my “bells and whistles”.
Good-bye #1: Theoden and Merry
Merry, having helped to bring down the Witch-king, is the only one still conscious. But he is half-blind in a mist of tears as he sees Eowyn, unconscious, and Theoden, fallen yet spared the crushing weight of Snowmane who had rolled away off the king’s body. Merry kisses his hand, and the king speaks in quiet torment: ‘Farewell, Master Holbytla!’ He is dying, yet he feels proud to meet his forefathers in death: he knows he triumphed in his duel with Harad’s finest. As he fades, he forgives Merry the transgression of coming to the battle when forbidden to do so. He also misses Eomer, who he wants to make sure will be the next king; and he wishes he could send a final farewell to distant Eowyn, back in Dunharrow. Merry begins to stutter the bad news about Eowyn, lying still only a few feet away, but the arrival of Eomer interrupts him. Merry briefly wonders why Gandalf was not present to fend off the Witch-king and save Theoden and Eowyn.
A. Merry was unable to find the nerve to help Theoden when the Witch-king attacked. What are his feelings now, as he kisses the king’s hand in death?
B. Theoden says he “goes to his fathers”. From our knowledge of Tolkien’s mythology outside of LotR, are the Rohirrim correct in believing they will meet their ancestors in some kind of afterlife?
C. How does Theoden’s death – with labored but clear speech from a man fatally injured—fit a kind of literary convention that death in battle is always peaceful, bloodless, and painless, with plenty of time for eloquent and articulate farewell addresses?
D. Why does Merry suddenly think of Gandalf?
Good-bye #2: Theoden and Eomer
Eomer and the other knights of his household, having recovered their wits and control of their mounts, now ride into the scene. One of them picks up the king’s banner, white horse on green, from the dead standard-bearer. Theoden, barely conscious, sees the banner and waves it towards Eomer. He hails Eomer as the new King of the Mark, and dies. Eomer, weeping, bids the others dry their tears with an impromptu verse, and orders that the king’s body, and those of his guard, be taken off the battlefield lest they be defiled.
E. How important is it that Theoden verbally convey the kingship to Eomer – isn’t his nephew king by simple line of descent?
F. Theoden’s last words are for Eomer to ride to victory, and to give his love to far-away Eowyn. Why not say something similarly personal to Eomer, his beloved nephew?
Good-bye #3: Eomer and Eowyn
As Eomer surveys and names the dead men who accompanied the king, he suddenly sees his sister lying among the corpses. He freezes, goes pale, and basically freaks out. He screams her name, and crying “Death take us all!”, leads his riders back into battle without thought of strategy, odds, or alliances with the approaching men of Gondor.
G. Why is Eomer’s reaction to Eowyn’s presence among the dead so extreme, to the point of madness?
Good-bye #4: The King’s Guard, and Snowmane
Although Theoden’s and Eowyn’s bodies are taken to Minas Tirith as per Eomer’s orders, the seven men of Rohan who died protecting Theoden are set apart and surrounded by a palisade of spears. Later, after the battle, Snowmane is buried and the fell beast is burned; a gravestone is set for the horse, where the grass grows long thereafter, but no grass ever grows on the site where the evil monster once lay.
H. If the Men of Rohan cannot spare the time to remove the seven dead guards to Minas Tirith, due to the press of battle, how can they spare the spears they set around the bodies?
I. As a larger question: does the army of Rohan have any auxiliaries, that is, a body of extra men and servers, squires, footmen, etc. to carry supplies and provide services such as burial, etc. – or is it entirely made up of fighting knights ready for battle who must also care for themselves in all other ways?
J. What is the point of the epilogic story of the green grass of “Snowmane’s Howe” and the “ever black and bare” site of the fell beast’s burial?
Good-bye #5: Imrahil, Theoden, and Eowyn
As the procession carries the dead King and shieldmaiden towards the city and away from the fighting, followed by Merry, Prince Imrahil rides up at the head of the “van of the men of Gondor”. He kneels in honor to the late king, and is surprised to find Eowyn, a woman, also dead. The Rohirrim claim they had no idea she was riding with them, “and greatly we rue it.” The prince bends closer to admire her beauty, and touching her hand, realizes she is not dead; he proves it when he holds his polished armor close to her mouth and it fogs slightly. He berates the Rohirrim for missing this vital fact, sends a messenger to the city to get more aid, and then rides off to catch up with Eomer and the war.
K. Did Imrahil know Theoden personally, or by reputation – and does that make a difference in his behavior towards the dead king?
L. How can it be that the men of Rohan had no idea that Dernhelm was Eowyn, when we have seen that she seemed to have some arrangement with Elfhelm during the ride?
M. Is Imrahil right to chew out the men for not noticing that Eowyn is not dead?
That’s it for now: this is a battle interspersed with numerous parts where everything stops while the dead and dying are interviewed and remembered.
N. Is Tolkien following any literary or warrior tradition in his emphasis on dying speeches, tears, kneeling, kissing, etc. while men are being slaughtered all around?
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a.s.
Valinor
May 12 2016, 11:49am
Post #2 of 18
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Merry's battlefield perspective
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Why does Merry suddenly think of Gandalf?
First, I really think Merry's question here is only to cause the reader to pause and think, "yeah, where the heck IS Gandalf anyhow?".
But in addition, Merry is falling into despair and illness with the specific effects of contact with the Nazgul, and this is also reflected in his possible questioning of Gandalf's motives at not being there, at having left the little hands (hobbit and warrior maiden) to do the foul work when Gandalf should have prevented it. Maybe.
Or maybe it's a plot device. I'm back to that. 
Imrahil! My favorite unfinished character in all of LOTR. Not quite real, is he? Rather like a Knight of the Round Table in my brothers' old Children's Edition of King Arthur (which I read much more than they ever did!), a beautiful illustration but not entirely there.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 12 2016, 12:46pm
Post #3 of 18
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Greatness of the great and the small
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A. Merry was unable to find the nerve to help Theoden when the Witch-king attacked. What are his feelings now, as he kisses the king’s hand in death?
The courage of hobbits is great, but needs to be ignited. Eowyn’s courage was needed to lead Merry to action. The humility of hobbits is great as well, after stabbing the Witch King, Merry tells Theoden: ‘I … have done no more in your service than to weep at our parting.’
B. Theoden says he “goes to his fathers”. From our knowledge of Tolkien’s mythology outside of LotR, are the Rohirrim correct in believing they will meet their ancestors in some kind of afterlife?
Just like us now, they don’t really know. But hope is recognized as a good thing, and despair as wrong.
C. How does Theoden’s death – with labored but clear speech from a man fatally injured—fit a kind of literary convention that death in battle is always peaceful, bloodless, and painless, with plenty of time for eloquent and articulate farewell addresses?
The massive endorphin rush during battle, plus shock, would mask pain for a while. Pain is increased by inflammatory response, but that is not immediate. Theoden has been superhuman ever since he began the charge to the Pelannor. I’d be disappointed if that changed now!
D. Why does Merry suddenly think of Gandalf?
His job is to save the day! Plus, like Curious said, we're supposed to wonder the same thing.
E. How important is it that Theoden verbally convey the kingship to Eomer – isn’t his nephew king by simple line of descent?
When Theoden set out to war (winding up at Helm’s Deep), he said:
'Behold! I go forth, and it seems like to be my last riding,' said Théoden. 'I have no child. Théodred my son is slain. I name Éomer my sister-son to be my heir. If neither of us return, then choose a new lord as you will.
So he had already done this once before.
F. Theoden’s last words are for Eomer to ride to victory, and to give his love to far-away Eowyn. Why not say something similarly personal to Eomer, his beloved nephew?
I don’t think making Eomer king is impersonal.
G. Why is Eomer’s reaction to Eowyn’s presence among the dead so extreme, to the point of madness?
I wish my brothers loved me that much!
H. If the Men of Rohan cannot spare the time to remove the seven dead guards to Minas Tirith, due to the press of battle, how can they spare the spears they set around the bodies?
Weren’t they the ones the dead guys didn’t need any more?
I. As a larger question: does the army of Rohan have any auxiliaries, that is, a body of extra men and servers, squires, footmen, etc. to carry supplies and provide services such as burial, etc. – or is it entirely made up of fighting knights ready for battle who must also care for themselves in all other ways?
In The Muster of Rohan, Theoden and Hirgon discussed this matter:
For a while the king sat silent. At last he spoke. ‘So we come to it in the end,’ he said: ‘the great battle of our time, in which many things shall pass away. But at least there is no longer need for hiding. We will ride the straight way and the open road and with all our speed. The muster shall begin at once, and wait for none that tarry. Have you good store in Minas Tirith? For if we must ride now in all haste, then we must ride light, with but meal and water enough to last us into battle.’
‘We have very great store long prepared,’ answered Hirgon. Ride now as light and as swift as you may!’
J. What is the point of the epilogic story of the green grass of “Snowmane’s Howe” and the “ever black and bare” site of the fell beast’s burial?
Snowmane = Good fertilizer Fell Beast = Toxic waste
K. Did Imrahil know Theoden personally, or by reputation – and does that make a difference in his behavior towards the dead king?
The Chieftan of the Hadarim is dead, as is the Fell Beast and the Witch King.
Then the prince went from his horse, and knelt by the bier in honour of the king and his great onset; and he wept.
It’s possible Imrahil knew Theoden, but not necessary. Theoden’s greatness in battle was great enough in itself.
L. How can it be that the men of Rohan had no idea that Dernhelm was Eowyn, when we have seen that she seemed to have some arrangement with Elfhelm during the ride?
She’d separated from Elfhelm’s eored. These are not the same soldiers.
M. Is Imrahil right to chew out the men for not noticing that Eowyn is not dead?
Yes, it’s an important skill in battle to know who you need to try to save.
(This post was edited by oliphaunt on May 12 2016, 12:48pm)
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Meneldor
Valinor
May 12 2016, 3:11pm
Post #4 of 18
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H. If the Men of Rohan cannot spare the time to remove the seven dead guards to Minas Tirith, due to the press of battle, how can they spare the spears they set around the bodies?
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Visualize the setting: a great battlefield where there has already been much slaughter and many dead soldiers are strewn about. The weapons carried by the dead are mostly lying where they were dropped. Spare spears are both plentiful and near at hand.
E. How important is it that Theoden verbally convey the kingship to Eomer – isn’t his nephew king by simple line of descent?
Sure he is, but there's always another Wormtongue waiting in the wings to dispute the succession. Best to have the inheritance stated in indisputable crystal clear terms in front of multiple notary witnesses and nip the succession wars in the bud before they get going.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
May 12 2016, 3:48pm
Post #5 of 18
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B. Theoden says he “goes to his fathers”. From our knowledge of Tolkien’s mythology outside of LotR, are the Rohirrim correct in believing they will meet their ancestors in some kind of afterlife?
I'm not sure what the Rohirric beliefs were, ( if they were ever discussed) but for a model I'd take the Norse and Scandinavian Halls of Warriors as a picture. Theoden was worried that he would not live up to his fathers' reputations and now he feels secure in his standing among them.
From an outside view we know Men have one fate, unknown, but certain. I think it'd make sense to think they get lumped together until the end.
C. How does Theoden’s death – with labored but clear speech from a man fatally injured—fit a kind of literary convention that death in battle is always peaceful, bloodless, and painless, with plenty of time for eloquent and articulate farewell addresses?
Drama, of course, but I also agree with other posters who have said that biological factors are at work and his herculean efforts have upheld him to this point. I also think that the burden of the expectation of greatness is lifted from his shoulders. He has proved himself worthy of his kingship and in his age and weariness of the world welcomes death as a release from a life where (almost) all regrets are satisfied.
D. Why does Merry suddenly think of Gandalf?
Gandalf has always been there to help them, but now he's not. After he 'died', the hobbits became more independent or more reliant on others. All this is too much for a hobbit and he looks for help where he expects it to be. Not to mention Gandalf did fight off the Nine before, so there's safety there too...
E. How important is it that Theoden verbally convey the kingship to Eomer – isn’t his nephew king by simple line of descent?
A passing of the torch. I think it is very personal for Theoden to confer knigship to Eomer. In a way it symbolises the trust and love he has for his nephew and strikes me as sort of an 'adoption' or acceptance as a son. Very personal.
F. Theoden’s last words are for Eomer to ride to victory, and to give his love to far-away Eowyn. Why not say something similarly personal to Eomer, his beloved nephew?
See above.
G. Why is Eomer’s reaction to Eowyn’s presence among the dead so extreme, to the point of madness?
He lost an uncle and presumably a lot of good men. When he found his only remaining family (a sister nonetheless) 'dead' it was a breaking point for him, but I don't think he completely lost his mind or sight of his purpose. I got a little ahead in the discussion so I'll re-post my thoughts:
Well, I used to think this was a sort of despair for Eomer. His sister has 'died' so he is maddened by grief and loses the will to live.
Of course he is grieved deeply, but to think he has lost the will to live and will abandon his duty to Rohan seems a bit extreme to me now. I think that this cry of 'Death' is actually meant as a kind of encouragement to the Rohirrim. Theoden -- their leader-- embodied all the warrior virtues and died gloriously and honourably. Instead of letting the men be discouraged, I think Eomer is turning that despair into an admonition to not focus on his death but what it achieved. Theoden died a warrior and let's do our best to follow him-- even if death is the only path to do so. This is no hyper-inflated pre-battle speech promising glory and honour to the brave; this is where the reality of war must faced and the price for glory exacted.
J. What is the point of the epilogic story of the green grass of “Snowmane’s Howe” and the “ever black and bare” site of the fell beast’s burial?
It fleshes out the story more and gives it more depth-- the thing I like about Tolkien--, but it doesn't quite spoil the ending. By this point we kind of know Good triumphs over Evil, and we can assume they didn't take the time to bury a horse during a war for the survival of free Men, but somehow it never seemed like a spoiler to me. Maybe I was caught in all the rest going on, so it was a good couple line insertion, but easily forgotten in the subsequent events?
L. How can it be that the men of Rohan had no idea that Dernhelm was Eowyn, when we have seen that she seemed to have some arrangement with Elfhelm during the ride?
Agreed that these are probably different soldiers than the ones with whom she rode to battle, but also who'd want to speak up now and face Eomer's rage?
M. Is Imrahil right to chew out the men for not noticing that Eowyn is not dead?
Well, I'm assuming these Rohirrim are not heartless and do care for their wounded. Spending so much time around death they must have learned how to recognise it and distinguish 'gravely injured' from 'dead-dead'. Later though we do learn that the death-like trance is Black Breath so I can cut these riders some slack for being deceived.
Sing a song of long lament
The days be past, the years are spent
The flames of fire, on funeral pyre
The warrior's soul it's wing'd way hath sent
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InTheChair
Rohan
May 12 2016, 6:31pm
Post #6 of 18
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A. Merry was unable to find the nerve to help Theoden when the Witch-king attacked. What are his feelings now, as he kisses the king’s hand in death? Sorrow. As well as pain that he hasn't noticed yet.
B. Theoden says he “goes to his fathers”. From our knowledge of Tolkien’s mythology outside of LotR, are the Rohirrim correct in believing they will meet their ancestors in some kind of afterlife? Unknown. No legend of Middle-Earth has definitive answers what happens to Men when they leave the world.
C. How does Theoden’s death – with labored but clear speech from a man fatally injured—fit a kind of literary convention that death in battle is always peaceful, bloodless, and painless, with plenty of time for eloquent and articulate farewell addresses?
If there is such a convention it is cinematic, not literary. It is also about Merry much more than Theoden.
D. Why does Merry suddenly think of Gandalf?
Gandalf might have saved the king had he been there to fend of the Witch-king.
E. How important is it that Theoden verbally convey the kingship to Eomer – isn’t his nephew king by simple line of descent? Unimportant for the line of descent. Important for Theoden to know that Eomer was alive. This is more about Theoden. Though also without it Eomer might have died on the battlefield without beeing ever recognized in the line of kings.
F. Theoden’s last words are for Eomer to ride to victory, and to give his love to far-away Eowyn. Why not say something similarly personal to Eomer, his beloved nephew? They are men in a heroic historical age. They only profess love for each other when it is appropriate. Also he had just presented him the kingship.
G. Why is Eomer’s reaction to Eowyn’s presence among the dead so extreme, to the point of madness? She is his only remaing relative.
H. If the Men of Rohan cannot spare the time to remove the seven dead guards to Minas Tirith, due to the press of battle, how can they spare the spears they set around the bodies? They were the spears of the dead men.
I. As a larger question: does the army of Rohan have any auxiliaries, that is, a body of extra men and servers, squires, footmen, etc. to carry supplies and provide services such as burial, etc. – or is it entirely made up of fighting knights ready for battle who must also care for themselves in all other ways?There are no auxiliaries on the field, unless you count banner-bearers and hornblowers as such. They had only what supplies they needed to reach Minas Tirith as per Denethors designs.
J. What is the point of the epilogic story of the green grass of “Snowmane’s Howe” and the “ever black and bare” site of the fell beast’s burial? To remind that after the dark there comes light again.
K. Did Imrahil know Theoden personally, or by reputation – and does that make a difference in his behavior towards the dead king? By reputation. Though Theoden had spent his youth in Minas Tirith and he and Imrahil are of the same generation.
L. How can it be that the men of Rohan had no idea that Dernhelm was Eowyn, when we have seen that she seemed to have some arrangement with Elfhelm during the ride? Elfhelm knew. Bu he and his company were not by the kings men when Eowyn fell. They were either closer to the walls by the siege engine, or further out afield. I cannot remember which.
M. Is Imrahil right to chew out the men for not noticing that Eowyn is not dead? So it would seem. In their sorrow they had forgotten to make sure.
N. Is Tolkien following any literary or warrior tradition in his emphasis on dying speeches, tears, kneeling, kissing, etc. while men are being slaughtered all around? Presumably very common when royalty dies, unless they go instantly stone cold.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
May 12 2016, 6:50pm
Post #7 of 18
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C. How does Theoden’s death – with labored but clear speech from a man fatally injured—fit a kind of literary convention that death in battle is always peaceful, bloodless, and painless, with plenty of time for eloquent and articulate farewell addresses?
If there is such a convention it is cinematic, not literary. It is also about Merry much more than Theoden.
I think you hit upon an important point. Much of the death-speech (at least for me) is visualised from the cinematic medium. Also, I do like the fact that you point out that the speech is for Merry! Theoden knows he is dying and the rest of his efforts are directed to benefit the living. Excellent!
D. Why does Merry suddenly think of Gandalf?
Gandalf might have saved the king had he been there to fend of the Witch-king.
Do you think this is a bitter revelation or merely sorrowful?
E. How important is it that Theoden verbally convey the kingship to Eomer – isn’t his nephew king by simple line of descent?
Unimportant for the line of descent. Important for Theoden to know that Eomer was alive. This is more about Theoden. Though also without it Eomer might have died on the battlefield without beeing ever recognized in the line of kings.
Wrapping up his final affairs and focusing on the welfare of those alive. True selfless nobility!
F. Theoden’s last words are for Eomer to ride to victory, and to give his love to far-away Eowyn. Why not say something similarly personal to Eomer, his beloved nephew?
They are men in a heroic historical age. They only profess love for each other when it is appropriate. Also he had just presented him the kingship.
A sort of lead-by-example 'now is not the time for tears' message and admonition to do his duty, you think?
H. If the Men of Rohan cannot spare the time to remove the seven dead guards to Minas Tirith, due to the press of battle, how can they spare the spears they set around the bodies? They were the spears of the dead men.
I. As a larger question: does the army of Rohan have any auxiliaries, that is, a body of extra men and servers, squires, footmen, etc. to carry supplies and provide services such as burial, etc. – or is it entirely made up of fighting knights ready for battle who must also care for themselves in all other ways?
There are no auxiliaries on the field, unless you count banner-bearers and hornblowers as such. They had only what supplies they needed to reach Minas Tirith as per Denethors designs.
Am I mis-reading? What about Denethor?
Sing a song of long lament
The days be past, the years are spent
The flames of fire, on funeral pyre
The warrior's soul it's wing'd way hath sent
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InTheChair
Rohan
May 12 2016, 9:53pm
Post #8 of 18
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Am I mis-reading? What about Denethor?
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I think someone mentioned it above. The words of Hirgon to Theoden.
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Al Carondas
Lorien
May 12 2016, 11:36pm
Post #9 of 18
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I think that Merry's thoughts follow a natural progression. First, he is disturbed from his all-consuming grief. The sounds of battle around him bring him back to his perilous reality. He surveys the battlefield: eastward, southward, northward. Finally, he casts his glance westward where the knights of Dol Amroth are issuing from the gates of the city. That is when he misses Gandalf.
It makes sense. He knows that Gandalf should be in the city. Merry's grief is still fresh. The first stage of grief is denial. It's only natural for Merry to find himself wishing that Gandalf had been here to prevent the catastrophe around him.
And I think you're right, too, a.s.: JRRT probably wants to intrigue us as to Gandalf's whereabouts through Merry's question.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Lorien
May 13 2016, 12:26am
Post #10 of 18
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I don't see any lack in Theoden's final words to Eomer.
'Hail, King of the Mark!' he said. 'Ride now to victory!'
It is, no doubt, absolutely essential that Theoden should be perfectly clear in naming Eomer King. There mustn't be a moment's doubt now as to who the Rohirrim should follow. But Theoden's words, though sparse and simple, are not merely an official declaration. It seems to me a hearty personal endorsement of Eomer, an acknowledgement of his worth, and a hopeful encouragement. I think that it is exactly the kind of farewell that a staunch warrior like Eomer would deeply appreciate.
His final words for Eowyn, in fact are no more than a simple farewell. But I've no doubt Eowyn would be equally pleased to hear these words, knowing that she was on Theoden's mind in the end. Few words has Theoden. They are not overly wrought with emotion, but they are sincere and heartfelt and straight to the point. That has been Theoden's character all along.
And then Eomer sees Eowyn and kind of loses his mind. But that too is true to the character he has always displayed. He is young and emotional and perhaps a bit rash. It reminds me of a moment during the meeting with Ghan-buri-Ghan that demonstrates well the difference between the elder and younger statesmen. Ghan-buri-Ghan assures them of the numerical superiority of their enemy. This is how Theoden and Eomer reply:
'Alas! he speaks all too shrewdly,' said Theoden. 'And our scouts say that they have cast trenches and stakes across the road. We cannot sweep them away in sudden onset.'
'And yet we need great haste,' said Eomer. 'Mundburg is on fire!'
Eomer has always shown an extremely fiery temperament - ever since we first met him: accosting the Three Hunters on the plains. And of course the loss of Theoden and Eowyn is an extreme situation. His extreme reaction seems natural, to me. And fitting. Battle is all around him. Why not turn his fury upon his enemies?
"Good Morning!"
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enanito
Rohan
May 13 2016, 3:55am
Post #11 of 18
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L. How can it be that the men of Rohan had no idea that Dernhelm was Eowyn, when we have seen that she seemed to have some arrangement with Elfhelm during the ride?
If Eomer had paused to ask some questions, possible outcome as follows:
Me? I didn't know it was Eowyn! Halmer, how about you? Nope? And you Eldmer? No clue either? What's that Heothyn, you were too busy fighting to notice? We must have all missed it just like you, Eomer -- so, no hard feelings right? Let's go kill some orcs!
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enanito
Rohan
May 13 2016, 4:27am
Post #12 of 18
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Eomer thinks Eowyn's death pointless?
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G. Why is Eomer’s reaction to Eowyn’s presence among the dead so extreme, to the point of madness?
Purely subjective, but possibly Eomer's shock overcomes him because of what he perceives as a pointless death?
Nobody witnessed the events between the WiKi, Theoden (and Snowmane!), Eowyn, and Merry. Coming upon the scene, I would imagine that the first thought Eomer has is "wow, uncle really made his mark, dying while killing the lord of the Nazgul". Eomer even states that "meet was his ending", and I imagine in his mind he thought it was "meet" because it was a worthy death in battle. But as for Eowyn, he likely thinks she was simply along for the ride, wrong place wrong time, and heartlessly killed by the WiKi -- no thought whatsoever that she may actually have been the one to fell him!
Possibly if Eomer understood her valor and achievement, he would have also considered her death "meet". Still desiring vengeance for her death of course, but perhaps not quite as much in the beserker mode.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 13 2016, 5:20am
Post #13 of 18
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A. Merry was unable to find the nerve to help Theoden when the Witch-king attacked. What are his feelings now, as he kisses the king’s hand in death?
Give him a break, it all happened in seconds! WiKi appeared, Théoden cried "To Me!" his horse reared and was shot... what, exactly, could Merry have done, armed only with a short sword? We saw him struggling to find his nerve during Eowyn's confrontation, but he succeeded, after all. Of course Merry wishes he could have done more, but in fact comfort was all he could give.
B. Theoden says he “goes to his fathers”. From our knowledge of Tolkien’s mythology outside of LotR, are the Rohirrim correct in believing they will meet their ancestors in some kind of afterlife?
"There's more than memory." Tolkien was very careful to adhere to the position that the Elves don't know what happens when Men die, and no one else really discusses it. I agree that the Rohirrim, being basically Saxons, probably adhere to Northern beliefs about warriors going to the great longhouse in the sky, but it's never spelled out.
C. How does Theoden’s death – with labored but clear speech from a man fatally injured—fit a kind of literary convention that death in battle is always peaceful, bloodless, and painless, with plenty of time for eloquent and articulate farewell addresses?
Heck, a soprano dying of consumption can sing for 20 minutes.
D. Why does Merry suddenly think of Gandalf?
Gandalf has always been there when he needed him, with one notable exception.
E. How important is it that Theoden verbally convey the kingship to Eomer – isn’t his nephew king by simple line of descent?
In the middle of a battle, there's no such thing as too much clarity. But I think that from his own POV he wants the satisfaction of completing the turnover.
F. Theoden’s last words are for Eomer to ride to victory, and to give his love to far-away Eowyn. Why not say something similarly personal to Eomer, his beloved nephew?
I agree with others that this is a vote of confidence and encouragement. It's no time to go all mushy with your best fighter.
G. Why is Eomer’s reaction to Eowyn’s presence among the dead so extreme, to the point of madness?
He loves her, of course, and the thought of her capably minding the home front has been an anchor to him during the ride and the battle. Now he feels that all is lost, so... DEATH!
H. If the Men of Rohan cannot spare the time to remove the seven dead guards to Minas Tirith, due to the press of battle, how can they spare the spears they set around the bodies?
As others have noted, they're lying on the field with their owners dead. It's more of a surprise that they attempt to carry the dead King away with the fighting still hot. The bearers who come for him are very exposed, especially with that gold cloth. Do we know of any kind of battlefield triage to rescue the wounded?
I. As a larger question: does the army of Rohan have any auxiliaries, that is, a body of extra men and servers, squires, footmen, etc. to carry supplies and provide services such as burial, etc. – or is it entirely made up of fighting knights ready for battle who must also care for themselves in all other ways?
Maybe some young esquires, but probably not many support troops given the exceedingly hasty deployment and ride. They said they wouldn't bring much food and baggage; that probably goes for support personnel as well.
J. What is the point of the epilogic story of the green grass of “Snowmane’s Howe” and the “ever black and bare” site of the fell beast’s burial?
Post battle eulogies are part of the canon of Nordic sagas. They don't normally feature animals, but to the Rohirrim their horses are very special.
K. Did Imrahil know Theoden personally, or by reputation – and does that make a difference in his behavior towards the dead king?
It's quite possible that they met back in the day, and he would certainly know him by reputation. But I'm sure he'd have given that respect to a King who had responded so splendidly even if he didn't know him.
L. How can it be that the men of Rohan had no idea that Dernhelm was Eowyn, when we have seen that she seemed to have some arrangement with Elfhelm during the ride?
Well, we assume that Elfhelm and a few others knew, but they were off fighting elsewhere. These are the King's men, and she only joined them at the time of the charge.
M. Is Imrahil right to chew out the men for not noticing that Eowyn is not dead?
Absolutely. Good battlefield triage is necessary, as you have to save all the fighters who can be saved.
N. Is Tolkien following any literary or warrior tradition in his emphasis on dying speeches, tears, kneeling, kissing, etc. while men are being slaughtered all around?
Absolutely, both!
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Al Carondas
Lorien
May 13 2016, 1:55pm
Post #14 of 18
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 Good point.
So true. I wouldn't want to be the one to tell Eomer.
"Good Morning!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 13 2016, 4:35pm
Post #16 of 18
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Maybe tthe upright spear is also a marker for the burial parties later
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Plunging a spear into the ground next to the body wouldn't take long (as Mendelor says) - perhaps it also makes a nice visible marker for people to head to once the battle is over and it's time to bury the dead. Maybe it is even a form of triage - someone with a spear by them has already been declared dead, so as not to waste the time of anyone walking the battlefield looking for wounded..
Then there's also something ceremonial - after the battle at the Fords of Isen, the dead were buried in a mound, also marked with spears.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 13 2016, 8:52pm
Post #17 of 18
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Emotions, emotions, everywhere we look in Book V
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Reading all these posts, and thinking back to the "Minas Tirith" chapter, I was thinking how emotionally volatile the characters are. That is no surprise given that there's war, death, and tragedy taking place, but it made me think back to Gandalf's fall in Moria and how briefly the emotions of the Fellowship were covered, almost like we were watching from afar via binoculars.
By contrast, even pre-battle in Minas Tirith, when Pippin meets Bergil, the boy first recoils in fear, then reverses himself and advances in an angry mood for a fist fight. I'm making that connection to many others, such as Theoden beholding the siege of the city and recoiling like Bergil, then heading into the fight. Eomer and the Rohirrim have a reversal of emotions, first singing in the joy of battle, then grimly chaning "Death!" and losing all joy. Merry goes from terrified & guilty, then heroic when he hears Eowyn defy the WiKi. I could go on and on (Faramir losing his cool with Denethor, and of course Denethor himself...).
My point isn't that the rest of LOTR is devoid of emotion, just that in this part of the book the characters' emotions are raw, volatile, extremely intense, and in your face instead of at a distance. Even jumping ahead to the Scouring of the Shire and The Grey Havens, two chapters that ought to be tear-jerkers, the emotions are more muted. Something about the Gondor part of the book is like hitting a very raw nerve in Tolkien.
I would say the same about the Frodo & Sam passage once they're inside Mordor: they are far more desperate, and Frodo always seems on the brink of collapse, so that journey leaves me feeling beat up. But the Scouring of the Shire, which ought to upset me to see The Shire so ruined, is more like a robust adventure, and Frodo's departure in The Grey Havens, which should seem horribly tragic after reading about him for hundreds of pages, is bittersweet but not as gut-wrenching as Theoden's last battle and Eowyn taking down the WiKi.
Just my opinion. Anyone else think things are really ramped up in the story while it takes place in the south vs in the north?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 13 2016, 9:05pm
Post #18 of 18
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Gandalf vs the readers; Imrahil
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I appreciate your dilemma. It's natural within the story for the hobbits to turn to Gandalf to help in a crisis. But it also seems like a big plot device to address readers' questions about Gandalf. We could even blame Gandalf for Theoden's death--didn't he heal him and urge him to go to war? Isn't it Gandalf's fault that Theoden is dead here in Gondor and not withering away in a stupor in Edoras? And why didn't he ride out onto the field and send a white shaft of light into the sky to scare away the WiKi like he's done before?
So, he's setting us up for what comes next, and maybe nudging us to ultimately blame Denethor for Theoden's death, because indeed, Gandalf was ready to pursue the Nazgul onto the field until Pippin showed up with news about Faramir.
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I'm always left wanting to know more about Imrahil too. And what is Dol Amroth like, and Belfalas? Tolkien is so good at giving us enough information about people that is incomplete so that we always want to know more about them. Darn him! :)
I would relate that Imrahil thought to Dernhelm, and the question "Why don't more people see through that easy disguise?" Tolkien throws in a lot of characters that remain in the margins. Most recently there was Hama from Edoras and Gamling and Erkenbrand from Helm's Deep. To toss in a Dernhelm made me think that maybe I would find out more about "him" if I kept reading, maybe not, but I didn't spend time thinking about who he was, because he could just disappear again. Even more significant characters like Galadriel and Treebeard play a big central role in a couple chapters, then appear later more as footnotes, so you get used to letting people come and go.
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