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**The Battle of the Pelennor Fields** - 2. ‘Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!’ … A cold voice answered: ‘Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey!’
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squire
Half-elven


May 10 2016, 9:09pm

Post #1 of 63 (10513 views)
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**The Battle of the Pelennor Fields** - 2. ‘Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!’ … A cold voice answered: ‘Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey!’ Can't Post

Today I want to focus on probably the most famous and dramatic moment in this chapter, if not the book: the attack of the Witch-king on Theoden, and *spoiler* the ringwraith’s destruction by Eowyn (with the aid of Merry). I’ll summarize the action, and ask questions at times. Please feel free to add your own questions and topics in the reply thread. (Today I’m saving the illustrations for the end of the post.)

Story and Discussion
As the chapter opens, the Witch-king sits at the broken Gate of Minas Tirith, dismayed at the change of weather and the arrival of the Riders of Rohan. He quickly recovers his confidence, thinking “He was still in command, wielding great powers. King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, he had many weapons.” He disappears from the area.
A. What do we learn about the Nazgul as we are told his thoughts in this brief opening?

He reappears dramatically. Just as Theoden has brought down the champion of Harad and the pennant of the Black Serpent, suddenly a shadow envelops the king. Those about him panic, scream, and fall to the ground. His horse rears in terror as Theoden shouts defiance, then Snowmane pitches to the ground with an arrow in his side, rolling on to the fallen king. A hideous animal descends from the air, naked and leathery with great webbed wings. It is described as “A creature of an older world maybe it was, whose kind, lingering in forgotten mountains cold beneath the Moon, outstayed their day, and in hideous eyrie bred this last untimely brood, apt to evil.” It settles on to the fallen horse as if to feed on carrion.
B. How does the fell beast cast a shadow large enough to “blot the morning from the sky” so that “dark falls about” Theoden?
C. Why is Theoden unaffected by the shadow, when his men and horses are groveling and screaming in terror?
D. Where did the “black dart” come from that kills Snowmane; was it aimed at the horse or at Theoden?
E. What exactly is the ‘Fell Beast’ (as they have come to be known) and why is its kind “apt to evil”? (Here is one exploration I did a few years ago)

Mounted on the creature is the King of the Nazgul, his steel crown on his invisible head, spreading fear and despair, carrying a war-mace. One knight of Rohan still stands by to defy the demon when all others were dead or flown: Dernhelm the mysterious Rider we met in the previous chapter. (His stowaway companion, Merry the hobbit, is crawling in the wreck, nauseous with fear, unable to look at what was happening.) Dernhelm warns the Nazgul to leave Theoden’s body alone. A cold voice threatens, not to slay Dernhelm, but to bear him away to “the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye”. Dernhelm draws sword and the wraith mocks him: “Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!”
F. Does it help or hurt the drama that the Nazgul’s invisibility, accented by a floating crown and gleaming eyes in mid-air, is finally revealed to us?
G. Why is Merry’s point of view of the events suddenly given, if that is the phrase when his eyes are still tightly shut?
H. Why does the Nazgul threaten Dernhelm with a hellish psychic torment in lieu of death, but did not do the same to Theoden?
I. In refuting Dernhelm’s threat, is the Witch-king knowledgably citing Glorfindel’s and Gandalf’s prophecies (“not by the hand of man shall he fall”), or simply stating his own arrogant belief about his invulnerability due to his wraithlike nature?

Dernhelm laughs aloud and proclaims she is no man, but a woman: Eowyn, daughter of Eomund. She tells the Witch-king to begone or “living or dark undead, I will smite you.” Merry opens his eyes as the wraith pauses in doubt; the hobbit sees Eowyn, her hair shining as she weeps, wielding her sword and raising her shield to fend off her enemy’s deadly gaze. Merry’s loyal heart drives him to crawl towards her in aid, despite his terror of being noticed by the fiend.
J. Is Eowyn’s unveiling one of the great surprises in the book, so that the count of eucatastrophes in this battle is three, not two – or do most readers figure Dernhelm out before this?
K. Why does Eowyn take her helmet off: is it necessary in order for her to proclaim her virgin power?
L. Why was Merry paralyzed and unable to answer his own will to save his King (“King’s man!”, above), yet now he finds the courage to come to Eowyn’s aid?

The flying monster leaps up and attacks Eowyn and she slices its head off with one clean stroke. The sun comes out and shines on her. The Nazgul, screaming his hatred, shatters her shield with his mace and breaks her arm; she falls to her knees. As he lifts the club to smash her head in, he suddenly falls forward with a cry, missing her: Merry had stabbed from behind, cutting open the back of his knee. Eowyn desperately stands with her last strength and thrusts her sword into the Witch-king’s bowed head. The sword shatters; she collapses; and the black garb of the Lord of the Ringwraiths falls empty to the ground in a heap: “A cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.”
M. Does the beast attack Eowyn at the wraith’s command or on its own?
N. How easy or hard is it to decapitate a giant winged lizard in one sword-stroke?
O. Why does the King carry a mace, rather than a sword?
P. How did Merry avoid getting crushed by the falling beast, so that he could position himself behind the wraith who had just stepped down from his saddle to attack Eowyn?
Q. What, exactly, happened to the Witch-king so that his body apparently vanished instantaneously?
R. Was that hideous voice re-embodied and heard again in the next age of the world?

Art Fair
I’m a big fan of Tolkien art and illustrations, but even I was overwhelmed when I began looking for some images to illustrate this post. As noted, it was a very popular scene long before the New Line films exploded the visual universe of Tolkien art; I wouldn’t be surprised if artists have been further inspired by the fact that the film’s version of this scene was *coughuninspired&clumsycoughcough* and so has left more room for interpretation for them; and to ice the cake, I discovered that an art blog, ArtOrder.com’s MuddyColors, hosted a contest in 2011 for artists to render this scene!
So, for your viewing pleasure and any responses you’d like to contribute, I’ve assembled not one but three galleries of ‘Eowyn and the Nazgul’:

1. Eowyn and the Nazgul - 8 Illustrations from 1990s and earlier
Check out, in this and the following two galleries: the sizes of the various beasts; Eowyn/Dernhelm’s mode of dress; the lighting and weather compared to Tolkien’s descriptions; the Nazgul’s apparent ability to paralyze his enemies with fear; the pictures’ points of view (or ‘camera angle’).
Click images for enlargements:





2. Eowyn and the Nazgul - 15 Recent illustrations
This has been asked this week already: do the New Line films have a lot to answer for in the world of Tolkien illustration over the past 15 years? And yes, I did edit! There’s a lot more where these came from.
Click images for enlargements:







3. Eowyn, Merry, and the Nazgul - 6 Recent illustrations
I noticed that many artists leave Merry out; why?
Click images for enlargements:




Extra Credit. Who killed the Witch-King: Eowyn (not a Man)? Merry (also not a Man)? Eowyn and her sword, plus Merry’s curse-laden sword, rather than Merry himself?



squire online:
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


May 10 2016, 9:45pm

Post #2 of 63 (10401 views)
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More thoughts... [In reply to] Can't Post

A. What do we learn about the Nazgul as we are told his thoughts in this brief opening?

He's an arrogant sort who thinks too highly of himself. All this prideful boasting really seems like a typical 'death flag'. Where are these 'Oh, so scary' powers or 'many weapons'? I might be a little cynical here, but the W-K's boasts seem a little hollow, or is he done in before he can show off these powers? Maybe he underestimates Eowyn and Merry so he thinks: 'I don't have to fight so seriously'?

B. How does the fell beast cast a shadow large enough to “blot the morning from the sky” so that “dark falls about” Theoden?

I'm thinking he swoops in like a bird of prey and *whoosh* he's there and hides the light as wings are spread to brake. (At least that's how I imagine it...) This interpretation seems to reinforce the imagery of a hunter seeking out prey and singling Theoden out for his target.

C. Why is Theoden unaffected by the shadow, when his men and horses are groveling and screaming in terror?

Theoden is consumed by the drive to give his all. He's already defied old age and Grima's poisoning to be here, he's done so much already that what's one more obstacle.

D. Where did the “black dart” come from that kills Snowmane; was it aimed at the horse or at Theoden?

I'm thinking this is actually bad luck. Random orc #328 got lucky with a pot-shot and this unforeseeable tragedy fells our hero. Sometimes courage and determination isn't enough to allow you to survive.

F. Does it help or hurt the drama that the Nazgul’s invisibility, accented by a floating crown and gleaming eyes in mid-air, is finally revealed to us?

If it were I, I'd be thinking: 'Where do I skewer him?'. The invisibility gives me a sense of uncertainty and implies invincibility. (If you can't see it, you can't hit it!)

G. Why is Merry’s point of view of the events suddenly given, if that is the phrase when his eyes are still tightly shut?

I'm thinking he is shocked to awareness in feeling the presence of a Nazgul again. I think it's a sort of terror that bewitches you so that you can't look away, even as the death blow falls.

H. Why does the Nazgul threaten Dernhelm with a hellish psychic torment in lieu of death, but did not do the same to Theoden?

You don't risk taking the hero alive. They are too much a threat to live, but you can torture and play with the weak minions. (Underestimation of Eowyn that leads to his downfall.) He doesn't se him/her as a threat and thinks he can cow the 'weak' opponent with fear and threats.

I. In refuting Dernhelm’s threat, is the Witch-king knowledgably citing Glorfindel’s and Gandalf’s prophecies (“not by the hand of man shall he fall”), or simply stating his own arrogant belief about his invulnerability due to his wraithlike nature?


I'm not sure Glorifindel sent a copy of his prophecy to the W-K, so I'm thinking this is a link-up for the readers to trigger a memory from earlier in the story. I'm thinking he is saying that he is generally invincible. Classic villain mistake! They always die when they say that...

Also, I'm not too sure the W-K has been run through with a sword before, so maybe he isn't invincible to men, but merely has been impregnable to all their attacks until now. So Glorifindel's prophecy doesn't guarantee him invincibility from the male sex, but merely states that something unexpected will kill him.

J. Is Eowyn’s unveiling one of the great surprises in the book, so that the count of eucatastrophes in this battle is three, not two – or do most readers figure Dernhelm out before this?


I didn't figure it out, but maybe I'm dense...Tongue Honestly, I think that Tolkien throws so much at us in the past few chapters that we don't pay much mind to the new bit character Dernhelm while battles are raging, walking trees come on the scene, and people go crazy. In hindsight it seems obvious, but at the time I had too much on my mind to worry about this new guy that was barely mentioned.


K. Why does Eowyn take her helmet off: is it necessary in order for her to proclaim her virgin power?

From a practical standpoint, I'm sure the thing was stuffy and limited her field of vision. As a shield-maiden, I'm not so sure she would have practised in full armour, but maybe in sparring pads and lighter dress. I'm thinking she wants to be as comfortable as she can and to use her advantage of agility and a greater field of vision. Plus there is the shock factor: 'You think you have this figured out, but don't know everything Witch-King!'.

L. Why was Merry paralyzed and unable to answer his own will to save his King (“King’s man!”, above), yet now he finds the courage to come to Eowyn’s aid?


Eowyn inspires him to reach beyond others' expectations of him. He has been told all along how he is too young, too little, and unfit to help fight to save Middle-earth, and I think he has half-way believed it himself. Now he is testing those limits for himself.

O. Why does the King carry a mace, rather than a sword?


Brute force and not precision seems to be Evil's way. Hacking, beating, and breaking down resistance.





Sing a song of long lament
The days be past, the years are spent
The flames of fire, on funeral pyre
The warrior's soul it's wing'd way hath sent


enanito
Rohan

May 10 2016, 10:39pm

Post #3 of 63 (10396 views)
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Even now I just re-read all these passages like 8 more times, gripping stuff! [In reply to] Can't Post

A. What do we learn about the Nazgul as we are told his thoughts in this brief opening?

We start out the paragraph with a reference to the WiKi's master, but the rest of the paragraph indeed revolves around me/myself/I. It does imply that Señor WiKi isn't some mindless marionette or automaton (at least in his own mind he still has full control and isn't immobilized when new tactics are needed)

B. How does the fell beast cast a shadow large enough to “blot the morning from the sky” so that “dark falls about” Theoden?

I had assumed the fell beast and rider had their own personal 'fog of darkness' surrounding them, as opposed to it being a more straightforward blocking of the sunlight.

C. Why is Theoden unaffected by the shadow, when his men and horses are groveling and screaming in terror?

Agreed (with Rembrethil). Theoden has rejected Saruman's control, and just earlier that morning when confronted with doubt anew, was likened to Orome, broke a horn with his blast, and cried more clearly than mortal man before him. So yeah, he's overcome his fears.

F. Does it help or hurt the drama that the Nazgul’s invisibility, accented by a floating crown and gleaming eyes in mid-air, is finally revealed to us?

Loved it.

J. Is Eowyn’s unveiling one of the great surprises in the book, so that the count of eucatastrophes in this battle is three, not two – or do most readers figure Dernhelm out before this?

Likewise, I loved the unexpected (for me) shock of finding out who Dernhelm was. I don't think it was terribly telegraphed for a first time reader (unlike the movie where Merry's "My Lady" kind of gave it away).

K. Why does Eowyn take her helmet off: is it necessary in order for her to proclaim her virgin power?

Eowyn states that she will hinder the WiKi, and he replies that no living man can hinder him. And then Eowyn states she will smite him. No mention of killing, just hindering and smiting (which may mean slaying, but in this context I really think she means striking). I do not believe Eowyn necessarily believes she will be able to kill the WiKi, and in my own reading I don't think she is even considering that possibility -- as Merry remembers her face, it was one seeking death, having no hope.

So I think she removes her helm because she's finally ready to confront what she had always hoped would be her destiny -- not to kill the WiKi (unexpected bonus!), but to die honorably defending her King. And she is ready to do this not as a pretend soldier, or with any pretenses or false hope that a helm will protect her -- she'll defy the WiKi as Eowyn, woman of Rohan.


a.s.
Valinor


May 10 2016, 11:05pm

Post #4 of 63 (10401 views)
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Her hair was long, her foot was light, and her eyes were wild [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
K. Why does Eowyn take her helmet off: is it necessary in order for her to proclaim her virgin power?



Not her virginal power, but the power of the feminine, she is flaunting it, she is demonstrating her very intrinsic female identity by letting her unruly hair--that potent symbol of unbound female hair as a dangerous force of creation myths--pour down around her shoulders and taunting the Witch King with it.

Of course, she's more than slightly crazed, at this point.

Nevertheless, I think that's what Tolkien is going for.

a.s.

"an seileachan"


"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.



Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 10 2016, 11:24pm

Post #5 of 63 (10398 views)
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Some answers [In reply to] Can't Post

A. What do we learn about the Nazgul as we are told his thoughts in this brief opening?

He thinks like any field officer who sometimes has to adjust priorities on the battlefield.

B. How does the fell beast cast a shadow large enough to “blot the morning from the sky” so that “dark falls about” Theoden?

He's really, really, big, with big wings, and not very high, so he casts a big shadow.

C. Why is Theoden unaffected by the shadow, when his men and horses are groveling and screaming in terror?

He's a King, and knows his first priority is to rally his troops. "To me, to me!" is a rallying cry with a suggestion of mutual protection.

D. Where did the “black dart” come from that kills Snowmane; was it aimed at the horse or at Theoden?

A rearing white stallion is an irresistible target, much easier to shoot at than a man falling to the ground. And, tactically, almost as effective.

E. What exactly is the ‘Fell Beast’ (as they have come to be known) and why is its kind “apt to evil”?

Basically, they seem to be a giant pterodactyl, several times the size of the ones that have actually been found whose wingspan was only a little over a meter.

F. Does it help or hurt the drama that the Nazgul’s invisibility, accented by a floating crown and gleaming eyes in mid-air, is finally revealed to us?

You bet it does. But the floating crown is a lot easier to visualize than disembodied eyes. I have trouble believing the eyes. Merry was imagining the eyes.

G. Why is Merry’s point of view of the events suddenly given, if that is the phrase when his eyes are still tightly shut?

He's mostly reporting dialog, although he might peek a little.

H. Why does the Nazgul threaten Dernhelm with a hellish psychic torment in lieu of death, but did not do the same to Theoden?

He didn't really have time for a conversation with Théoden. It's an empty threat, anyway, because in the middle of the battle it would be much to much of a distraction to start taking prisoners.

I. In refuting Dernhelm’s threat, is the Witch-king knowledgably citing Glorfindel’s and Gandalf’s prophecies (“not by the hand of man shall he fall”), or simply stating his own arrogant belief about his invulnerability due to his wraithlike nature?

Nowadays I lean towards arrogance. It resonates with us, since we know about the prophecy.

More later.








No One in Particular
Lorien


May 11 2016, 1:15am

Post #6 of 63 (10386 views)
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Some thoughts... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
C. Why is Theoden unaffected by the shadow, when his men and horses are groveling and screaming in terror?

Theoden is no longer afraid. He has accepted that he will not be returning from the field of battle this time; he is holding nothing in reserve. He does not fear either the Witch King or the seemingly endless hordes of Mordor.

E. What exactly is the ‘Fell Beast’ (as they have come to be known) and why is its kind “apt to evil”? (Here is one exploration I did a few years ago)

Growing up I always assumed it was a pterodactyl. Recently, my son asked the same question and I was flabbergasted to realize that any one else thought any different (small dragon, etc.)

Dernhelm draws sword and the wraith mocks him: “Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!”

I. In refuting Dernhelm’s threat, is the Witch-king knowledgably citing Glorfindel’s and Gandalf’s prophecies (“not by the hand of man shall he fall”), or simply stating his own arrogant belief about his invulnerability due to his wraithlike nature?

Consider the phrasing the WK uses. He doesn't say "No mortal may harm me!" or "I cannot be destroyed!". I think that he did indeed know of the prophecy, even if he didn't really give it much credit. Or maybe he did, we don't know. But the way he says that indicates to me that he was at least aware of it. Eowyn herself, on the other hand, most likely was not. Also, her response causes him to pause in doubt, as below:

Dernhelm laughs aloud and proclaims she is no man, but a woman: Eowyn, daughter of Eomund. She tells the Witch-king to begone or “living or dark undead, I will smite you.” Merry opens his eyes as the wraith pauses in doubt; the hobbit sees Eowyn, her hair shining as she weeps, wielding her sword and raising her shield to fend off her enemy’s deadly gaze. Merry’s loyal heart drives him to crawl towards her in aid, despite his terror of being noticed by the fiend.
J. Is Eowyn’s unveiling one of the great surprises in the book, so that the count of eucatastrophes in this battle is three, not two – or do most readers figure Dernhelm out before this?

It surprised me, but I was only nine or ten at the time. I have no clue as to whether I would still be stumped. :)

N. How easy or hard is it to decapitate a giant winged lizard in one sword-stroke?

Sinew and muscle and bone. Quite difficult, I would imagine.

P. How did Merry avoid getting crushed by the falling beast, so that he could position himself behind the wraith who had just stepped down from his saddle to attack Eowyn?

Plain dumb hobbit luck, I think. "If chance you call it..."


Extra Credit. Who killed the Witch-King: Eowyn (not a Man)? Merry (also not a Man)? Eowyn and her sword, plus Merry’s curse-laden sword, rather than Merry himself?


Domino chain. If Merry doesn't stab the WK first, perhaps Eowyn's sword would not have worked; but Merry's wound alone would be insufficient (we assume) to kill the WK.

So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of the Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

Obviously, that sword did something to th WK that he didn't like much.

While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph


Al Carondas
Lorien

May 11 2016, 2:13am

Post #7 of 63 (10376 views)
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Re: Gripping stuff [In reply to] Can't Post

Absolutely. And one of the things that works best for me is the fact that the WK has some of the best lines and best buildup. I love how Tolkien lets us inside the heads (and black hearts) of the bad guys as well as the good guys. As in the following excerpt from this scene:

Slowly, slowly he [Merry] began to crawl aside; but the Black Captain, in doubt and malice intent upon the woman before him, heeded him no more than a worm in the mud.

'Worm in the mud' - what a great image to bring home the power and arrogance of the Lord of the Nazgul. Makes it all that much better when the worm turns.

In Theoden's clash with the Haradrim cavalry, Tolkien gives us a similar glimpse into the thoughts of the enemy chieftan:

And he looked out, and in the growing light he saw the banner of the king, and it was far ahead of the battle with few men about it. Then he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet, he came against the white horse and the green with great press of men; and the drawing of the scimitars of the Southrons was like a glitter of stars.

One might almost take the Southrons for the heroes of the tale based only on the way that they are presented to the reader in this passage.

"Good Morning!"

(This post was edited by Al Carondas on May 11 2016, 2:14am)


Meneldor
Valinor


May 11 2016, 2:23am

Post #8 of 63 (10375 views)
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In many of those illustrations, Eowyn seems to be left-handed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Right-handers almost always fight with sword in the right hand and shield on the left. Left-handers usually keep the sword in the left hand and shield on the right. It can be very awkward for a right handed sword & shield fighter to go up against a lefty for the first time, as I know from bruising experience.

Is there anything I've missed in the text to indicate Eowyn was a southpaw? Does this mean something?


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Al Carondas
Lorien

May 11 2016, 3:19am

Post #9 of 63 (10369 views)
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The battle within the battle [In reply to] Can't Post

The opening passage is another example (perhaps the best) of Tolkien giving us the villain's point of view. I call it a brilliant stroke by a master storyteller to raise the tension and heighten the suspense.

The shadow that descends upon Theoden could be the ordinary shadow of a giant beast, but I always interpreted the description as involving some dwimmercraft - a shadow of Death somehow. I think that Theoden withstands the shadow, because Theoden has no fear of death. He has accepted his death in this battle as inevitable. Merry's case is different, however. He does fear death, but his love for Eowyn ultimately proves strong enough that he puts his fear for himself aside. Maybe it just took him a while to muster this strength, or maybe his love for Theoden was insufficient because he knew in his heart that Theoden was lost. I think perhaps a little of both. And Eowyn is motivated by both desperation and love. I'm not sure which is strongest with her.

The invisible Ringwraith is exactly how I always pictured them to be. Eowyn has to reveal her true self to him, of course. She came seeking renown, so she can't remain incognito. Sensing her moment she casts aside all doubt and fear and literally laughs in the face of Death.

And lo! Death trembles. Tolkien lets us feel not only the Black Captain's might, but his doubt as well. I'm sure that he must have heard the prophecy. I would say that the WK's reaction is enough to show that. The prophecy has been presented to us as a widely-known, long surviving legend, and Sauron has spies everywhere. So, it would seem unlikely to me that news hasn't reached Angmar himself.

As for the kill. I, too, think that Merry's sword made the WK vulnerable to the death blow dealt by Eowyn. A team effort all the way and neither teammate a 'man', so prophecy fulfilled.

"Good Morning!"


Al Carondas
Lorien

May 11 2016, 3:58am

Post #10 of 63 (10364 views)
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As for Merry's point of view [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say that Tolkien shifts focus from one character to another to present a fully-rounded description of events, and also to keep us in suspense. Notice that we shift to Eowyn's point of view just before Merry strikes from out of nowhere.

I have to confess, though, that I got a little chuckle upon reading this line:

He opened his eyes and the blackness was lifted from them.

I mean, that often does happen when one open's one's eyes, right? Just struck me funny this time through. But, of course, I've no doubt that this is exactly the larger point that Dr. Tolkien meant to drive home with this simple sentence: that through our own Fear we can make ourselves blind. And we have the power to overcome that blindness, too.

"Good Morning!"


enanito
Rohan

May 11 2016, 4:05am

Post #11 of 63 (10361 views)
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Both are revealed to the reader [In reply to] Can't Post

I hadn't quite thought of it that way, but to the reader we see both the Witch King and Eowyn revealed. We finally get a description of what the lord of the Nazgul is like, and we find out the truth behind Dernhelm. And they are both revealed to us prior to their engaging in mortal combat.

Not that we're surprised of course at Eowyn's appearance, and yeah of course we still have tons of Q's about the WiKi. But this does in a way provide a bit of symmetry to the passages, with neither the WiKi nor the covert rider of Rohan remaining cloaked any further in mystery.

So from a storytelling p.o.v. maybe it's nice to be able to see behind the "masks" that both these combatants were wearing.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 11 2016, 1:19pm

Post #12 of 63 (10360 views)
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Eowyn's tumbling golden hair.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Eowyn's tumbling golden hair works on many levels, I think.



Quote
But the helm of her secrecy had fallen from her, and her bright hair, released from its bonds, gleamed with pale gold upon her shoulders.


I agree with what has been said so far - she reveals herself to the WK in part to taunt him with a loophole in what he just said, but also she's showing her identity. Perhaps's she's done with pretending to be someone else, whether Dernhelm, or the model princess. (I'll also join the chorus of those who didn't see through the 'Dernhelm' ruse on first reading.)

The helm of her secrecy" can be read as more than a literal steel helmet, I mean. The gesture seems to speak of freedom - she who feared a cage is in a cage no more.

I think the symbolism carries on:


Quote
A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly. The outstretched neck she clove asunder, and the hewn head fell like a stone. Backward she sprang as the huge shape crashed to ruin, vast wings outspread, crumpled on the earth; and with its fall the shadow passed away. A light fell about her, and her hair shone in the sunrise.”

(my bolds)


I read the shadow as more than just physics - the cock has crowed, the darkness is breaking up, and Eowyn is spotlighted heroically in the dawn. There's something angelic about that image I think (c.f. for example the collection of artworks of dragon-slaying archangels on this page https://considermoon.wordpress.com/...otally-epic-tuesday/ ) Lots of long blond(e) tresses.




[Caption - the WK contains Eowyn is just talking semantics https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/373095150359507873/ ]

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 11 2016, 1:30pm

Post #13 of 63 (10346 views)
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The art gallery - I'm intrigued as to how Frank Frazetta's Eowyn managed to pass herself off as a man... :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


May 11 2016, 5:01pm

Post #14 of 63 (10352 views)
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Ten thousand thunders! [In reply to] Can't Post

"He was master of his own horse at any rate, and no one could say that he was afraid of any man or dragon on the face of the earth."


Quote
C. Why is Théoden unaffected by the shadow, when his men and horses are groveling and screaming in terror?


It never before occurred to me that there was a parallel here with Augustus Bonifacius. Tolkien seemed to prefer even his less noble kings to show some dignity in moments of crisis. I'm thinking also of Thorin. And as I recall, Tolkien was a little disturbed by the Gawain poet's treatment of Arthur.

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Meneldor
Valinor


May 11 2016, 8:21pm

Post #15 of 63 (10323 views)
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Frazetta's artwork is a triumph [In reply to] Can't Post

of symbolism over accuracy. But let's not get into what Frazetta is trying to symbolize; this is a family board. Wink


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107

(This post was edited by Meneldor on May 11 2016, 8:22pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 11 2016, 9:23pm

Post #16 of 63 (10300 views)
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That cartoon is a hoot! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 11 2016, 9:28pm

Post #17 of 63 (10304 views)
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In defense of the Southrons [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to stop doing that!

But seriously, I remember on 1st read how clearly this seemed to be a battle between good & evil, and I was confused by this passage sympathetic to the Southrons, so confused that I thought it must be referring to the good guys (Rohan), and had to re-read it several times before I appreciated that it really was describing the Southrons in an almost-heroic light. Quite a surprise in a chapter full of surprises. I didn't see Dernhelm turning out to be Eowyn, nor anyone killing the WiKi. On the other hand, I was convinced that despite his pessimism, Theoden would survive the war, so I kept expecting a way for him to be resurrected. That's me as a betting man--right about half the time.


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 11 2016, 10:21pm

Post #18 of 63 (10300 views)
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Eowyn/Merry/Sauron and Luthien/Huan/Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In Reply To
A team effort all the way and neither teammate a 'man'

I think the loud & clear message here is about teamwork overcoming one of the greatest evils in Middle-earth.

It's similar in some ways to Luthien & Huan the hound fighting Sauron at the island tower of Minas Tirith:


Quote
Then Sauron sprang upon Luthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breath. But even as he came, falling she cast a fold of her dark cloak before his eyes; and he stumbled, for a fleeting drowsiness came upon him. Then Huan sprang. There befell the battle of Huan and Wolf-Sauron, and howls and baying echoed in the hills, and the watchers on the walls of Ered Wethrin across the valley heard it afar and were dismayed.

But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor; and he took his foe by the throat and pinned him down. Then Sauron shifted shape, from wolf to serpent, and from monster to his own accustomed form; but he could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly. Ere his foul spirit left its dark house, Lúthien came to him, and said that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said:There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower.’


1. Both Luthien and Huan are intimidated by Sauron's menace. Huan leaps aside in fear (like Merry), while Luthien swoons (like Eowyn's shield being shattered), but like Eowyn, she doesn't go down without a fight, and she gets her magic cape in Sauron's face, creating enough weakness in him for Huan to attack just as Merry did.

2. Then look at the language that Luthien uses on the defeated Sauron, which is very similar to the threat the WiKi made to Eowyn, only the roles are reversed. (Maybe Sauron remembered those words and coached his minions to use them in similar situations.)

3. No man helps out in the battle. Beren, like Theoden, is down and out.


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 11 2016, 10:26pm

Post #19 of 63 (10304 views)
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Stand-ins for higher powers [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I read the shadow as more than just physics - the cock has crowed, the darkness is breaking up, and Eowyn is spotlighted heroically in the dawn. There's something angelic about that image I think (c.f. for example the collection of artworks of dragon-slaying archangels on this page https://considermoon.wordpress.com/...otally-epic-tuesday/ ) Lots of long blond(e) tresses.

Just as Theoden was larger than life a little while ago, like an embodiment of Orome (who for some reason is called the Great--weren't all the Valar "Great"?), Eowyn represents more than just a regular mortal woman here, and the flying monster she kills is more than just an animal. It radiates darkness (and its burned corpse contaminates the soil, forever) while Eowyn radiates light that is beyond what appears in the regular dawn, as if she is Varda or another higher power.

This is a high-impact scene for most readers, one that I think Tolkien must have written and re-written with great care to get the right dramatic effect. And it works for me every single time I read it.


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

May 11 2016, 10:36pm

Post #20 of 63 (10296 views)
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But was Merry a man [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought we had a discussion some while ago and concluded that Hobbits where Men. Which makes this little trick a bit more difficult. Although I have a little theory about the head Nazgul in this. I do not think he is totally destroyed. After all, did not Gandalf once say that the Nazgul exist with their master and can only be destroyed if he is? I think he was discomforted, yes, put out of action for a while, yes a bit like at Rivendell a few months earlier, but if Dauron was to prevail the Witch-King would be re-housed.


a.s.
Valinor


May 11 2016, 10:53pm

Post #21 of 63 (10302 views)
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interesting. do you mean for the reader or within the story universe? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
It radiates darkness (and its burned corpse contaminates the soil, forever) while Eowyn radiates light that is beyond what appears in the regular dawn, as if she is Varda or another higher power.



Do you mean that to us, the reader, she appears this way? Or do you mean that within the world in the story, she is actually radiating light "beyond what appears in the regular dawn?"

Because I have always assumed that she is simply--and POTENTLY--displaying her femininity with her unveiled and unbound hair, the very power of a very, VERY, human mortal woman, not a goddess or supermortal person in any way.

I see her laughing her (admittedly crazed) butt off at the Witch-king, myself: You fool, I'm a woman, and SURPRISE, I am not afraid. I am crazy at this moment, but I am powerful and I am not afraid. Didn't count on that, your Darkness, did ya?

Of course, all the battlefield heroes in this book display unflagging energy and unrealistic strength and endurance. Because, after all, they survived and then stories were made.

But I see Tolkien here just using a symbol of unrestrained feminine power, which is her unbound and flowing hair.

a.s.

"an seileachan"


"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.



Al Carondas
Lorien

May 12 2016, 2:06am

Post #22 of 63 (10270 views)
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I don't know where the dart came from that felled Snowmane [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't think it was the WK's style. Nor is there any evidence of his wielding a bow. But since you brought up Snowmane's fall, there is something about it that really bothers me. As much as I enjoy and admire Tolkien's writing - and I do immensely - Snowmane's epitaph has always been one passage that disappointed and puzzled me.

Faithful servant yet master's bane,
Lightfoot's foal, swift Snowmane


Now the first line may be factual in the strictest sense, but is it really fair to pin the label 'master's bane' on this steadfast steed? It wasn't Snowmane's fault that he was pierced by a dart and happened to land upon his master as he fell to his death. I always felt that the poet might have chosen a more complimentary message for this horse's memorial. Did this bother anyone else?

"Good Morning!"


enanito
Rohan

May 12 2016, 2:28am

Post #23 of 63 (10263 views)
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Theoden's bane [In reply to] Can't Post

I bet if you asked Snowmane wherever he ended up in the after-life, he'd admit feeling pretty guilty about having reared up with fear, and then falling dead on top of his master. Not that he could have really done anything different, but feeling guilty nonetheless.

A bane doesn't have to willingly accomplish the death or destruction, right? We're not saying Theoden wouldn't have died, it's just that Snowmane (unwillingly) was the culprit. And Snowmane deprived Theoden of what I would imagine would be his desired manner of death -- fighting mano-a-mano against his foe, and being slain while never giving in. Death by horse-crushing doesn't find it's way into too many epic poems...

So yeah it's a bit harsh, but in some ways it describes the reality of Theoden's unfortunate manner of death.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


May 12 2016, 3:16am

Post #24 of 63 (10253 views)
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I think it was bad luck and Fate... [In reply to] Can't Post

Some random orc got in a lucky shot.

Granted, we are never told explicitly, but the mysterious source of the dart makes it seem a working of impersonal Fate. I think Theoden was resigned to his fate in this war. He knew he wasn't a young warrior anymore, but he was king and a warrior yet, and so was determined to be one to the end and leave the rest to Fate. What some may see as reckless, I think was this 'what will be, will be' attitude and Theoden's acceptance of his own death, however it came.

Interestingly, I am reminded of Eomer's battle-madness. He is flushed with the excitement of battle and orders what almost amounts to a death charge. This attitude seems to mirror Theoden's resignation to Fate, but isn't Eomer a bit young to court death in this manner, or is the attitude that or Rohirrim warriors?

Sing a song of long lament
The days be past, the years are spent
The flames of fire, on funeral pyre
The warrior's soul it's wing'd way hath sent


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


May 12 2016, 3:26am

Post #25 of 63 (10257 views)
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He's only mostly dead...(maybe?) [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting! I never thought of that!

This occasion is different than when the Nine were swept away in the Bruinen. The W-K is not uncloaked or merely rendered shapeless, but more seriously hurt. I wonder if-- in light of their similar connexion to Rings of Power-- he would have been reduced to a malicious spirit like Sauron and have taken time to reform a corporeal existence?

Now I'm wondering where he went? Did he have to sit on the sidelines for the rest of the war and watch his side lose? That would be aggravating!

Or maybe the special sword did something special to kill him for good, or at least slow his reincarnation? Now I'm also wondering what exactly that sword was supposed to do against the W-K? Was it actually magic or have any special properties? Is there a precedent for enchanted weapons in the Tolkien universe? I'm thinking that at the time of forging, the W-K still had a body and the weapon-smiths might only have wanted to 'kill' him in the traditional sense. Did he have a ring at the time or not? Argh! I wish we knew more about the SA!

Sing a song of long lament
The days be past, the years are spent
The flames of fire, on funeral pyre
The warrior's soul it's wing'd way hath sent

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