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squire
Half-elven
May 9 2016, 5:50pm
Post #1 of 62
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**The Battle of the Pelennor Fields** - 1. And now the fighting waxed furious on the fields of the Pelennor; and the din of arms rose upon high…
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Welcome to this week’s Reading Room discussion of Chapter 6 of Book V of The Lord of the Rings: “The Battle of the Pelennor Fields”. How should we begin? Chapter 4 had one of the most stirring and climactic endings in the entire epic: just as the fiendish Witch-king threatened to destroy the white wizard, suddenly war horns echoed in the distance: “Horns, horns, horns. Rohan had come at last.” Then, in one of Tolkien’s deft flips, Chapter 5 flashed back to show us how Rohan did it, and ended with Theoden’s charge and the Riders fighting and singing on the fields of the Pelennor.
Now in Chapter 6 we’re back at the gate of Minas Tirith, the moment after the horns are heard. What will happen next? Actually, in this chapter several things happen next: as promised by the title, an epic battle; a titanic single-combat between good and evil as the Witch-king destroys a hated foe and then is undone by the one (and a half) enemy he never anticipated; and a second amazing arrival of reinforcements, almost as wonderful as the one that ended Chapter 4. As well, this chapter treats several themes from classical war literature: farewells to the dying; the etiquette of the warrior; and songs of battle and of the slain.
This week I will offer these events and themes as dedicated discussion topics, rather than read through the chapter in simple chronological order. Today, for instance, I would like to consider the battle in its own right, rather than return to it day after day as part of successive chapter segments; likewise, I want to talk about all the instances of song in one discussion. As I have before, I will give a quick summary of the relevant action before asking a few questions. I hope you will feel free to ask additional questions, and to introduce additional topics of interest. Let’s start with the battle itself, considered as foreground rather than background.
The Battle
Phase I. As the Nazgul lord slips away from the gate, Theoden, coming down from the north, has reached the road that connects the city to Osgiliath. He is only a mile from the city and as he pauses, his knights catch up to him and they look for more foes to fight. On his right and ahead, closer to the walls, Elfhelm’s troop is clearing the siege areas, killing and forcing the engineers into the fire-trenches. Rohan has cleared the northern half of the Pelennor, but has by no means won the battle or even lifted the siege. South of the road is the main force of the Haradrim, and their chief charges against Theoden with his horsemen. Theoden sees them coming and charges also. Though outnumbered, the lancers of the Rohirrim overwhelm the mounted swordsmen of Harad, and Theoden personally skewers the leader and cuts down the banner of the serpent. The surviving enemy horsemen flee.
A. How does the writing balance the sense of triumph with caution that the battle is not nearly won yet?
B. Why is the description of Theoden’s attack on the Haradrim cavalry written like alliterative poetry in the medieval English style?
C. Why do the Riders of Rohan fight with lances, but the cavalry of Harad only carry scimitars, causing their defeat in mounted combat?
Images of this phase (comment as you like):
1. The Black Serpent Founders, by Eiszmann
Phase II. As the Witch-king attacks Théoden, the forces of Mordor re-assemble their ranks. From three sides they converge onto the center: the siege troops from around the city walls to the west; the Haradrim footmen advance from the south, supported by the mumakil and led by their cavalry; and fresh troops arrive from the River crossing and Osgiliath to the east. But Eomer has rallied and reformed his riders for a defense of the north fields, and from the city emerge the reserves of Gondor and the knights of Dol Amroth who proceed to clear the area around the Gate.
But when Eomer discovers the fate of his King, and then of his sister, he is enraged and takes the offense. No longer singing, but crying “Death!” the riders of Rohan charge southward, into the hordes ahead of them. Behind them, the van of the Gondor force reaches the center, pauses to respect the fallen royalty of Rohan, and then the cavalry turns to follow and support Eomer while the footmen move against the siege forces around the southern city wall.
D. How would the battle have gone had Eomer followed his plan of regrouping and waiting for the Gondor troops, both foot and horse, to link up with him and form a balanced fighting force?
E. How does the text compare this second charge (“Death!”) to the first (“Ride now to Gondor!” and “the host of Rohan burst into song”)?
Images of this phase (comment as you like):
2. Battle of the Pelennor Fields, by Alan Lee
Phase III. Eomer needs all the help he can get, because although he can penetrate and split up the opposing forces, his horses will not challenge the mumakil and the Haradrim rally around the monsters. And as already noted, Rohan is seriously outnumbered and about to be surrounded: the Haradrim to the south have a three-to-one advantage, but the reserves from Osgiliath, Easterlings new to the battle, now arrive on the field. They are numerous enough both to attack Rohan’s rear and also to move west and prevent the Gondor foot army from supporting Eomer and the knights of Gondor. Things look bad indeed, and then get worse: the fleet of the Corsairs is sighted, approaching up the river on the fresh wind from the South. Eomer, cut off both from the City and from the cavalry of Gondor, surrounded by Haradrim and Easterlings, summons his forces to a hill to dismount, form a shield-wall, and fight to the last man. It is mid-morning, and they have been fighting since dawn.
F. The mumakil prove very useful in combatting Rohan’s unexpected cavalry, but how were they supposed to have helped in the siege of a walled city?
G. Eomer still has the ability to cut through the enemy infantry, even if he can’t break them up and scatter them – so why does he not head back to defend the City with his allies, rather than sacrifice himself with his dismounted shield-wall maneuver?
Images of this phase (comment as you like):
3a. Oliphant, by Julex
3b. Battle of the Pelennor Fields, by Alan Lee
Phase IV. To the shock of all, the ships reveal they are under Aragorn’s command, and as they come to the quays of the Harlond they disembark an army from the southlands of Gondor. Re-energized, the forces of the West rally and attack: Eomer on foot advances to the south, towards Aragorn’s army, trapping the Haradrim in a pincer; and Dol Amroth rides to the east, pushing back the reinforcements of Morgul. After Eomer and Aragorn link up, the battle continues in piecemeal form. The Southrons and Easterlings fight for their lives, and for the rest of the afternoon warfare ravages the fields and farms of the Pelennor. Only at sunset does it end, and only by then has every soldier of Mordor been either killed, or driven beyond the walls of the Rammas to die of wounds, or drown in the river. Few ever return to their homes or camps, so that the battle – “the wrath and terror of Gondor” – achieves a legendary status among the folk of the East and South.
H. Is this battle’s conduct and outcome believable, given the sheer disparity in numbers?
I. How does battle of the Pelennor Fields compare to battle scenes in traditional literary epics?
J. For a chapter that is about the biggest battle in the book, why is there so little description of actual fighting?
Nits and Dits:
K. Where did the rest of the Nazgul go? Who took care of the horses when Eomer’s men strode south on foot to meet Aragorn? What happened to Grond? Who or what was Gothmog?
Images of this phase (comment as you like):
4. Aragorn Arrives, by Ted Nasmith
Finally, for extra credit, here is an account of the famous real-life battle, the siege of Vienna in 1683, that many have assumed Tolkien had in mind for this part of his story.
L. What are the similarities and differences between the 1683 siege and relief of Vienna, and the siege of Gondor, the ride of the Rohirrim, and the battle of the Pelennor Fields?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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a.s.
Valinor
May 9 2016, 7:01pm
Post #2 of 62
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Delurking to ask about those war towers
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Yes, sometimes I watch from afar. 
No matter how many times I read it, I generally skim over the battle scenes, so battle strategy would not be my strong suit.
However, you asked:
F. The mumakil prove very useful in combatting Rohan’s unexpected cavalry, but how were they supposed to have helped in the siege of a walled city?
So I wondered: how tall, exactly are those "war towers" on the backs of the mumakil? If they got to the walls of Minas Tirith, would they be tall enough to allow their riders to scramble over the outer walls directly?
Just, you know. Wondering. I only read this chapter to see Prince Imrahil, actually.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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enanito
Rohan
May 9 2016, 7:24pm
Post #3 of 62
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Any post that causes a lurker to poke their head up and make a comment, is definitely a successful post - always nice to see your thoughts, a.s.!
Previously we debated how Sauron's forces, once having destroyed the first gate, would be able to maneuver the battering ram (or anything else of size) to the subsequent gates at each level. Perhaps the mumakil were intended to clear a nice wide path from gate to gate, allowing the enemy forces better access with their equipment? Or maybe the inner level walls weren't as tall as the outer city wall, and the mumakils would then prove useful as launchpads to hop over the walls?
OK, unlikely, but I like the mental image it provokes in my mind!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 9 2016, 8:23pm
Post #5 of 62
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Changes in fortune, and evil chains of command
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Tolkien gives us a battle where the advantage sways back and forth. He did the same in The Battle of the Five Armies. For one thing, it's a more exciting read that way.
Both the Rohirrim and the Mordor forces have their leaders killed. Command moves smoothly on to Eomer, but the Witch King does not seem to be so easily replaced. We've read that he's driven his forces before him in fear. Possibly that suddenly stops, and the knowledge of what that means adds to the morale problem of being completely surprised twice by the arrival of unexpected enemy forces. Maybe that explains why some units of the Mordor army rally to make brave final stands, but only after the battle is lost.
And what does happen to the other Nazgűl? Why do they disappear from the story? That's a very good question to which I don't know the answer!
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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a.s.
Valinor
May 9 2016, 9:05pm
Post #7 of 62
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OK so I got interested now :-)
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Ah, a day off work is a dangerous thing.
Re your comment about Hannibal, I got interested in just how elephants (which I surmise were smaller than the legendary mumakil in the story, or am I incorrect in that?) were used against troops including cavalry, and found this fascinating web page. (and it appears I have forgotten how to hyperlink in Torn, darn it)
https://warisboring.com/battle-of-the-dumbos-elephant-warfare-from-ancient-greece-to-the-vietnam-war-ca62af225917#.omxzmaafi
Of course, since I don't actually know anything about war planning or battlefield logistics, it might not be the end-all explanation. But it does seem the elephants were multi-talented, one of those talents being they struck terror into the heart of soldiers on a battlefield, and they fought back only with high casualties, until the Romans figured out some anti-elephant tactics.
So maybe it isn't that mumakil were actually intended to be useful in a battle for a fortified city, per se, but that they were useful to strike terror into the heart of the fight (as Sauron was wont to do!) and were just generally good to have in battle, period.
I am, coincidentally, re-reading LOTR. Which always (at least for the last 13 years or so) reminds me of Torn. I love that you all are still here. I will pop in from time to time, maybe. On a random day off, when I'm supposed to be "getting stuff done".
a.s
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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enanito
Rohan
May 9 2016, 9:27pm
Post #8 of 62
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Nazgűl, where are you? .... <crickets>
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I asked about this same kind of thing during our "Uruk-hai" chapter discussion, regarding why the Nazgűl were held in check by Sauron and not allowed at that point to cross the Anduin. My inclination -- as a completely unqualified commander -- would be to use my best weapons early and often. Good possible answers were given as to why I'm not a good choice to make strategic decisions.
I understand an author's need to avoid over-utilizing anything approaching the deus ex machina (like the oft-mentioned eagles).
But in-text, is there a good reason why we don't see more of the ringwraiths involved in this battle? We've only felt their effects from afar to this point, and given how effective that was, I would have had them circling 24/7 the past few days, and increasingly during the fighting itself. Perhaps once again it's just a smart commander reserving his key lieutenants and allowing the expendables to do all the dirty work.
I don't believe we hear about any of them commanding other armies elsewhere, do we? Or being held back inside Mordor itself? Perhaps Sauron didn't really exist anymore and the other Nazgűl were needed at Barad-Dur to dress up as the Dark Lord when he would greet the masses on his balconies?
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Al Carondas
Lorien
May 9 2016, 11:38pm
Post #9 of 62
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(Provided, of course, that they aren't at the head of the column during the march. That could get messy for everyone else)
Well, if you are a nation that fights with Oliphaunts, then I imagine you just bring them with you whenever you march off to war. After all, who really knows what you are going to find when you get there? The Rohirrim had to have been a consideration for Sauron when his troops set out. And who knows what battlefields you might find yourself on before you get to Minas Tirith?
I think that the main usefulness of Oliphaunts would have been in countering any mounted troops - either Gondor's or Rohan's. Gandalf has told us that one of the chief weaknesses of Sauron's army is that they have few horsemen of their own. But I can certainly see them being useful as battering rams, and certainly their great strength might have been harnessed for many other purposes.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Lorien
May 10 2016, 12:00am
Post #10 of 62
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Time was on Sauron's side, and he knew that.
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It's possible that the unanticipated defeat of the WK shocked the remaining 8 Nazgul and sent them reeling to regroup. It may even have shocked Sauron (it must have, in fact.) so that he immediately decided to withdraw them.
The Nazgul do seem to be cowardly, after all. Remember how they were driven off at Weathertop by four Hobbits and a Ranger. Other than instilling fear, they seem to have little real power, and maybe even their power to instill fear was lessened with the death of the WK.
The other thing to keep in mind is that the main usefulness of the Ringwraiths is the discovery of the Ring. With his vast superiority in arms, Sauron could afford to wait and fight another day, and did not really need the Nazgul to achieve that victory. But he did need them for finding the Ring, which hadn't yet surfaced in the battle.
"Good Morning!"
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 10 2016, 12:04am
Post #11 of 62
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I believe all the remaining chapters are taken, yes? Your footer is still calling for volunteers.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 10 2016, 12:06am
Post #12 of 62
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Stick around... Houses of Healing coming in a couple of weeks!
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a.s.
Valinor
May 10 2016, 12:31am
Post #13 of 62
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I miss this place, from time to time...
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Without a doubt, still the friendliest place on the internet.
I am a little behind this discussion, in my private reading, but as it approaches what is, for me, the heart of the matter there on Mt. Doom, I'll try to keep up with you all.
Thanks, Elizabeth!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 10 2016, 1:38am
Post #14 of 62
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That was my first thought, but...
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...apparently war elephants don't seem to have been used for demolition, according to the link a.s. left and some similar ones I've found. Some have been used for hauling, but mostly they're for running down and terrorizing both infantry and cavalry. And, they're a big maintenance problem, requiring lots of food, water, and care, not all of which may be found en route.
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enanito
Rohan
May 10 2016, 2:12am
Post #15 of 62
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Squire, I thoroughly enjoy the images and other references you always bring to your chapter discussions, they really add a nice dimension.
A question for you (and any others who may search up these types of images during our read-thrus): have you found that drawings post LOTR movies have been impacted by P.J.'s visualization of events? That is, are images drawn pre-2001 noticeably different than those afterwards?
It may be that those involved in creating the movies, actually were inspired for their own artistry by existing drawings such as those you post, instead of the other way around.
I know this might not really be a "Reading Room" question, but since you post the images and allow for "comment as you like", I'm commenting 
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 10 2016, 3:00am
Post #16 of 62
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Jackson did, actually, hire two of the most prominent Tolkien artists, Alan Lee (squire used two of his pictures) and John Howe, to be principal art designers for the movies. Given that it's been so long since the movies, though, there's bound to have been some feedback in the other direction. Jackson also invited Ted Nasmith, who did squire's last picture, but he declined.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 10 2016, 3:03am)
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squire
Half-elven
May 10 2016, 3:02am
Post #17 of 62
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Fan art - so-called - is indeed heavily tilted towards the New Line visuals since 2001
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You're certainly right about that - I often find myself rejecting images for my posts because they essentially copy the films' designs.
There's no bold line between good fan art and so-so professional illustration. However, I think that even today many really good illustrators, who are attracted to Tolkien's world, are able to create Middle-earths that do not look at all like the films.
The internet has a lot to do with the proliferation of images available to us, and that era coincides with the LotR films. There may have been hundreds of Tolkien paintings and drawings being done between the 1950s and the 1990s, but finding them was difficult to impossible. Now Google Images and similar search engines, combined with a huge number of fan sites, blogs, and galleries, ensure that anyone can have their Tolkien artwork seen by hundreds of thousands with very little effort.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 10 2016, 8:10am
Post #19 of 62
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Lances and shield-walls (prompts C and G)
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C. Why do the Riders of Rohan fight with lances, but the cavalry of Harad only carry scimitars, causing their defeat in mounted combat?
G. Eomer still has the ability to cut through the enemy infantry, even if he can’t break them up and scatter them – so why does he not head back to defend the City with his allies, rather than sacrifice himself with his dismounted shield-wall maneuver?
I thin the lance is a very specialized weapon. Some real-life armies had no culture of it. I think it disappeared from the British Army at the end of the era of mounted feudal knights, and only reappeared in the Napoleonic wars in imitation of the lancers the French had. They in turn got the idea from the Polish, if memory serves.
The lance was surely a very difficult weapon to use. First you need to be able to hold one steady while managing a horse that is charging, and be able to aim it accurately. Then, if you do skewer an opponent in the first clash, you need to throw down the lance quickly so that it doesn't act as a lever and throw you from your saddle. If you miss with it, you need to drop your lance anyway - it's too cumbersome for close-quarters fighting.
Why does Eomer not head back to the walls?
He can't or he wont. First teh 'can't' reasons:
His force has just executed a forced march, followed by two cavalry charges. Men and horses must be exhausted. Perhaps, far from being able to charge down more enemies, they would barely be able to raise a trot.
They will also have used their lances in the first charges, and so have lost the tactical advantage those gave.
To charge, cavalry needed space to build up speed - possibly the further enemies are too close?
And maybe the enemies look too numerous to force a way through them anyway.
As for 'won't':
There's that hard-to-understand notion the old Northeners had about being true to your fate. Possibly it looks to Eomer that he is 'meant' to stand his ground now, and fight to the last man in a glorious defeat, exacting as high as cost a possible. For that purpose the shield wall might be a better tactic than further mounted fighting.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 10 2016, 8:21am
Post #20 of 62
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"And then wonder took Éomer" [and me]...
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And then wonder took Éomer, and a great joy; and he cast his sword up in the sunlight and sang as he caught it. And all eyes followed his gaze, and behold! upon the foremost ship a great standard broke, and the wind displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond. There flowered a White Tree, and that was for Gondor; but Seven Stars were about it, and a high crown above it, the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years beyond count. And the stars flamed in the sunlight, for they were wrought of gems by Arwen daughter of Elrond; and the crown was bright in the morning, for it was wrought of mithril and gold.
Aragorn's electrifying arrival is one of my favourite bits. I remember being surprised and delighted by it (I hadn't realised, first reading, who was on those ships). The style of the prose has gone into overdrive once again (I think there might be several different stylistic models involved here - I think this is not alliterative English Epic, nor the 'full Beowulf' that we get for Eowyn's defiance of the Witch King. But nor does it sound like most of the rest of the book) . And it defies those people who claim "you can't start a sentence with 'And'..."
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 10 2016, 10:55am
Post #23 of 62
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"getting stuff done" is over-rated - hyperlinks, elephants, Indians, but no cowboys.
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Always nice to "see" you, a.s.
By the non-wizarding powers vested in me, I write "url" and "/url" either side of the link (with square brackets instead of the double quotes) and the result is:
https://warisboring.com/...nam-war-ca62af225917
Thanks for sharing that interesting link!
I believe that untrained horses are really freaked out by the mere presence of elephants, thereby adding to the potential for 'Oliphaunts' to be an ideal anti-cavalry screen.
I have what academics call a 'pers comm.' as a reference: My father (a wireless operator in the Royal Corps of Signals) was seconded to an Indian cavalry brigade in 1936 or '37 and went on to fight with them in World War 2. He remembered his time in India with great fondness, and among the interesting anecdotes he told me that horses tended to panic at the mere sight or smell of elephants. So training included familiarizing the troopers and horses with elephants (I think they had to parade up and down in front of some until the horses no longer reacted). I'm not sure whether the army was anticipating encounters with war elephants. But as your article says, elephants would have been common enough as haulage creatures in India then, and having your cavalry brigade bolting all over the place on the sight of one would be an unnecessary embarrassment.
The brigade to which my father was attached ("my father's brigade" makes him sound like he was the Brigadier, hardly true) also contained a unit of Lancers, anachronistic as that might seem for the 1930s. My observation elsewhere in this discussion (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904375#904375 )about the difficulties in using a lance are partly based on what he could recall from watching lance training. Or perhaps he was actually trained to use the lance - I don't know, and the opportunity to ask him is long gone. Tolkien might have had similar opportunities to watch lance practice in World War I.
All this was naturally a matter of some interest and confusion to my sister and I when we were small. When we were growing up, TV featured a number of Westerns, so the natural intersection of 'cavalry' and 'Indians' for us was the Wild West, & family legend has it that Dad had to explain that no, he hadn't served with Custer.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming Book VI ROTK read-through (Book V is all signed up, thanks!) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=904377#904377
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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a.s.
Valinor
May 10 2016, 11:36am
Post #24 of 62
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What bible would Tolkien have read and studied when young, oh scholars of the RR? I am guessing a Douay-Rheims version which would have been the standard Catholic bible at that time.
Regardless, all those "ands" starting the exalted-sounding sentences remind me strongly of the Bible (specifically the New Testament) that I read in bible study and heard at Mass when young. I would have heard a version that was a bit revised from Tolkien's time but likewise based on the Latin Vulgate, so the language just reads the same, to my ear.
Here's Matthew, for example:
And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. For he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying: Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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a.s.
Valinor
May 10 2016, 11:38am
Post #25 of 62
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thanks for the url tip :-) (nt)
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"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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I've also posted an updated schedule for Book VI and appendices
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