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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
I wish the movies hadn't turned the characters into morons for the sake of the plot...
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CaptainObvious
Rivendell

May 8 2016, 7:34am

Post #1 of 234 (3708 views)
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I wish the movies hadn't turned the characters into morons for the sake of the plot... Can't Post

Little things that Peter Jackson did inadvertently made these characters come across as buffoons. And they drove me crazy. I'm looking to see if anyone agrees with me (though I'm prepared for a debate).

PEEVE #1: Thorin and the company put down their swords when the troll says, "Lay down your arms, or we'll rip his off!"
Yes I KNOW in the book the trolls capture the goblins, setting up the whole "Dawn will take you all..." bit. But I doubt Tolkien's Thorin would have in point of fact laid down his arms if he'd had the tactical advantage that movie Thorin did. Especially when it is revealed in BOFA that these dwarves are more than capable of killing a bunch of trolls. Thorin would not have given up his advantage, especially when he knew trolls weren't trustworthy. Better to avenge one unfortunate hobbit then risk everyone ending up in a stew.

The Sensible Character Thing To Do: Not have Thorin lay down his arms. Instead, Thorin should have said, "Surrender the hobbit, and we will let you live. Refuse and we will kill every last one of you."
You may go, "Hold on, Thorin needed Bilbo to be his burglar." But Thorin wasn't even convinced Bilbo should be along for the ride. He had already said to Gandalf he wouldn't guarantee Bilbo's safety, precisely because of a situation like the trolls. He wasn't going to risk the quest for one burglar of dubious capabilities (more on this later).
The Sensible Thing Peter Jackson Should Have Done: A very subtle tweak could have been to this scene which would have fade far more sense. Book Thorin never would have laid down his arms for Bilbo at that point in the story, but what if the trolls had gotten their hands on Fili or Kili? Thatís different. Those are Thorinís nephews. The children of his beloved sister. His heirs. The future of Erebor. For THEM, it would have made more sense for Thorin to throw down his arms, and for all the other dwarves to be cool with doing the same thing.

PEEVE #2: Everyone runs up a burning tree from Azog and his twenty orcs, even when itís been well established they can easily kill hundreds of them.
In Battle of the Five Armies, there's a groan inducing scene where Thorin sees a bunch of orcs running towards him and he says, "There's no more than a hundred. Dwalin and I can handle this." Way to remove all tension from a scene, Peter Jackson. If each dwarf in the Company can kill 50 orcs each, thatís 650 orcs. Azog had maybe twenty orcs with him when he chased the company down the hill. And they had a wizard who could kill at least a hundred if not more. During this series, we've seen everyone from tiny toddlers and preteens to wimpy Bilbo kill huge hulking orcs. Theyíre just not that tough. If these dwarves according to PJ logic are able to turn the tide of an entire battle simply by running out of a fortress, there is no excuse for them to run from Azog.
What Peter Jackson Should have Done: Not have Thorin say that line in BOTFA which cheapened the actions of the dwarves in earlier movies and made them look like idiots. Not have the dwarves come out of the burning tree to easily kill those orcs, thus establishing that the dwarves were dumb to climb up the tree to begin with. Don't make these dwarves so damn powerful. Even Aragorn limped after a battle scene.

PEEVE # 3: When Balin in Desolation of Smaug yells, "Bilbo!"
Really? The oldest, wisest dwarf in the company is going to act like an idiot and risk giving them all away?
What Peter Jackson Should Have Done: Have Ori yell that line, and then have Balin or Thorin tell Ori to be quiet. Oriís the youngest dwarf. It would have made more sense. I suspect the only reason Peter Jackson had Balin say it, was because he liked Ken Stott and wished he had more for him to do (me too).
Pet Peeve 4: Legolas was instantly jealous of Tauriel and Kili for no reason.

Way to destroy Legolas character. While part of me likes the idea of the whole Legolas has an arc where he goes from a douche to being a good person, the execution was horrible.

What Peter Jackson Should Have Done: Not have that silly subplot. And killed Tauriel at the Battle of Five Armies. Her relationship with Legolas needed no fleshing out. The audience would have immediately assumed she and Legolas was a thing, cause she was the hot female elf. If she had simply conducted herself as a proper soldier, it would have been far better. Then when she died in battle (I wish) there could have been ONE shot of Legolas mourning her, thus giving insight to Legolas character and adding some romance to the Hobbit without being silly and gratuitous.

PEEVE #4: Smaug looks Bilbo right in the eye and says, "You care about them (the Laketown people). Then you can watch them die!"

Really? Smaug spends forty minutes trying to kill Bilbo, and then looks Bilbo right in his very visible face and doesn't kill him? Come on. That's just out of character for both of them. The whole scene as Jackson had it, would have made more sense simply if Smaugh COULDNíT see Bilbo. Hence the whole taking it out on Laketown instead.

What Peter Jackson Should Have Done: Stuck to the book. Duh. Bilbo wouldn't have taken off the ring anywhere near Smaug's vicinity, due to his aversion to being fried to a hobbity crisp. And that dwarf chase was bonkers.

PEEVE #5: Everyone trusted Alfrid.
Bard trusted Alfrid with his own family. Bard trusts Alfrid to keep watch. Gandalf trusted Alfrid to look after BIlbo. These are supposed to be the smartest people in the book. And they're idiots. It's a good thing Alfrid wasn't in FOTR. Everyone would be giving him the ring to take to Mount Doom.

PEEVE #6: Movie Bard knew a dragon was coming and didnít get his family out of town.
Really? What would you have done?
What Peter Jackson Should Have Done: Instead of having Bard getting arrested, one of many possible solutions would have been to have a scene where Bard is taking his kids and leaving town when his kids convince Bard to stay, because heís the only one who can save the town from the dragon. Cause if your kids were saying, ďAre we going to de?,Ē I think you'd most likely say, ďNope. Pack your bags.Ē That family totally would have had a head start if they had left at that point. Smaug was still chasing the dwarves.


PEEVE #7: The dwarves kept casually talking to each other during the climactic battle in Battle of The Five Armies.
Really? There were moments in that big battle where it seemed like the dwarves were out for a leisurely stroll instead of fighting the ultimate battle for their lives and the future of Middle Earth. They were hugging and joking around with each other, which totally destroyed tension, sapped energy out of the scene, and completely damaged the credibility of the threat they were facing.
What Peter Jackson Should Have Done: Not made three movies. He clearly had too much filler. Instead of one hour long bore fest, he could have had an intense ten minute final battle to wrap things up.


(This post was edited by CaptainObvious on May 8 2016, 7:41am)


Intergalactic Lawman
Rohan


May 8 2016, 8:07am

Post #2 of 234 (3397 views)
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Great read! [In reply to] Can't Post

I have nothing to add because I made peace with the fact I will never like these films - So I just pretend they don't exist!


Smaug the iron
Gondor


May 8 2016, 8:42am

Post #3 of 234 (3389 views)
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No they are not morans [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
PEEVE #2: Everyone runs up a burning tree from Azog and his twenty orcs, even when itís been well established they can easily kill hundreds of them.
In Battle of the Five Armies, there's a groan inducing scene where Thorin sees a bunch of orcs running towards him and he says, "There's no more than a hundred. Dwalin and I can handle this." Way to remove all tension from a scene, Peter Jackson. If each dwarf in the Company can kill 50 orcs each, thatís 650 orcs. Azog had maybe twenty orcs with him when he chased the company down the hill. And they had a wizard who could kill at least a hundred if not more. During this series, we've seen everyone from tiny toddlers and preteens to wimpy Bilbo kill huge hulking orcs. Theyíre just not that tough. If these dwarves according to PJ logic are able to turn the tide of an entire battle simply by running out of a fortress, there is no excuse for them to run from Azog.
What Peter Jackson Should have Done: Not have Thorin say that line in BOTFA which cheapened the actions of the dwarves in earlier movies and made them look like idiots. Not have the dwarves come out of the burning tree to easily kill those orcs, thus establishing that the dwarves were dumb to climb up the tree to begin with. Don't make these dwarves so damn powerful. Even Aragorn limped after a battle scene.

This was in the book.



In Reply To
PEEVE # 3: When Balin in Desolation of Smaug yells, "Bilbo!"
Really? The oldest, wisest dwarf in the company is going to act like an idiot and risk giving them all away?
What Peter Jackson Should Have Done: Have Ori yell that line, and then have Balin or Thorin tell Ori to be quiet. Oriís the youngest dwarf. It would have made more sense. I suspect the only reason Peter Jackson had Balin say it, was because he liked Ken Stott and wished he had more for him to do (me too).

I would also be glad to see Bilbo if I was in prison and had No hope.


In Reply To
PEEVE #4: Smaug looks Bilbo right in the eye and says, "You care about them (the Laketown people). Then you can watch them die!"

Really? Smaug spends forty minutes trying to kill Bilbo, and then looks Bilbo right in his very visible face and doesn't kill him? Come on. That's just out of character for both of them. The whole scene as Jackson had it, would have made more sense simply if Smaugh COULDNíT see Bilbo. Hence the whole taking it out on Laketown instead.

What Peter Jackson Should Have Done: Stuck to the book. Duh. Bilbo wouldn't have taken off the ring anywhere near Smaug's vicinity, due to his aversion to being fried to a hobbity crisp. And that dwarf chase was bonkers.

It is not out of character, Smaug does not kill Bilbo because he knows that if Bilbo lives to see the attack on Lake-Town, Bilbo would blame himself for the attack, a far worst fate then just death plus I would rather see Smaug with out the ring effect then with.



In Reply To
PEEVE #6: Movie Bard knew a dragon was coming and didnít get his family out of town.
Really? What would you have done?
What Peter Jackson Should Have Done: Instead of having Bard getting arrested, one of many possible solutions would have been to have a scene where Bard is taking his kids and leaving town when his kids convince Bard to stay, because heís the only one who can save the town from the dragon. Cause if your kids were saying, ďAre we going to de?,Ē I think you'd most likely say, ďNope. Pack your bags.Ē That family totally would have had a head start if they had left at that point. Smaug was still chasing the dwarves.

This is explained in the film, "And go where? There is no where to go" Bard knows that even if they leave Smaug would still kill them so he must stop him.


In Reply To
PEEVE #7: The dwarves kept casually talking to each other during the climactic battle in Battle of The Five Armies.
Really? There were moments in that big battle where it seemed like the dwarves were out for a leisurely stroll instead of fighting the ultimate battle for their lives and the future of Middle Earth. They were hugging and joking around with each other, which totally destroyed tension, sapped energy out of the scene, and completely damaged the credibility of the threat they were facing.
What Peter Jackson Should Have Done: Not made three movies. He clearly had too much filler. Instead of one hour long bore fest, he could have had an intense ten minute final battle to wrap things up.

So the dwarves are not allowed to have some talking and jokes during the battle but Legolas and Gimli are allowed to make jokes during the battles in LOTR plus they did talk many times during the battles in the LOTR books.


CaptainObvious
Rivendell

May 8 2016, 9:19am

Post #4 of 234 (3378 views)
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It's spelled moron...silly... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. No duh, the tree scene is in the book. I'm saying how Peter Jackson chose to portray the event, the characters came off as unintelligent.

2. Whether in prison or not, if you essentially go, "Yay, you're rescuing me!" When there may be guards nearby who will wonder about the commotion, you're a moron. Balin as the oldest, wisest dwarf shouldn't be portrayed as a moron.

3. It's out of character for Smaug.

4. Gee, where could they go...Rivendell, Gondor, Shire, Mirkwood, Bree, Rohan, namely anywhere else in Middle Earth. Legolas and Bolg both arrived in Laketown after Bard said this, and were long gone gone by the time the dragon showed up. Thus establishing that Bard and his family could have also left.

5. When Legolas and Gimli didn't crack jokes. As humorous as it was when they counted the enemies they killed, the film didn't grind to a halt and the stakes never felt less. And they never stopped fighting to simply stand around talking. The dwarves of Erebor do that a few times.


LSF
Gondor

May 8 2016, 9:33am

Post #5 of 234 (3378 views)
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corrections and info [In reply to] Can't Post

#1- They originally had Bofur get caught and surrendered for, but then they realized that (before the AUJ pickups), nothing character-wise happened to Bilbo, no growth and nothing really to the Thorin relationship. Also, perhaps better to buy some time to figure out a way to escape (not to mention Gandalf is out there and could come help eventually). In the Battle, they succeed in killing trolls and ogres while with the dwarf army and with weaponry they did not have while facing the 3 trolls.

#2- "Goblin Mercenaries... no more than a hundred." And they show that these are indeed the same kind of goblins as from GoblinTown, which were established as being very wimpy against them.
The Company does not kills hundreds of orcs in the battle.The tide changes because the dwarf army gets a huge morale boost and rally because their king has joined them.
They don't see it's Azog (or even know exactly how many guys are chasing them) until they are already up in the not-burning trees, and by that point they literally have wargs nearly biting off their feet. Wargs were also not used in the Battle.

#4- While the Kili/Tuariel romance was always a thing, the love triangle was imposed by WB later on. Legolas and Tauriel were originally written and filmed as good friends or sibling-like.

#5- Smaug is shown to be a playful, spiteful, and cruel. What would be more hurtful to Bilbo, killing him or torching an entire city in his name and letting him live to have that guilt eat at him? Invisible conversation would have been visually boring/weird and unsuspenseful. Taking off the ring shows the ability for Smaug to get into Bilbo's head and the power of the ring itself in influencing Bilbo. Also, only at the very end of the conversation does Smaug actually try to kill Bilbo.


(This post was edited by LSF on May 8 2016, 9:43am)


Smaug the iron
Gondor


May 8 2016, 9:43am

Post #6 of 234 (3379 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's spelled moron...silly...

Alright my bad.

In Reply To
No duh, the tree scene is in the book. I'm saying how Peter Jackson chose to portray the event, the characters came off as unintelligent.

How?


In Reply To
Whether in prison or not, if you essentially go, "Yay, you're rescuing me!" When there may be guards nearby who will wonder about the commotion, you're a moron. Balin as the oldest, wisest dwarf shouldn't be portrayed as a moron.

So only because you are exacting to be free you are a moron? I would have don the same thing does that make me a moron?


In Reply To
It's out of character for Smaug.

No it is not, Smaug is a psychopath and wont to torture Bilbo as mutch as possible.


In Reply To
And they never stopped fighting to simply stand around talking. The dwarves of Erebor do that a few times.

except for Thorin and Dain hugging their are no other places where they are just stopp fighting with enemies around. If they do talk there are no enemies around to fight. Plus during the battle of the pelennor fields in the book many people stop fighting to talk a little bit ( especially at Theodens death.)

In Reply To
4. Gee, where could they go...Rivendell, Gondor, Shire, Mirkwood, Bree, Rohan, namely anywhere else in Middle Earth. Legolas and Bolg both arrived in Laketown after Bard said this, and were long gone gone by the time the dragon showed up. Thus establishing that Bard and his family could have also left.

How far do you think they got before Smaug would have found them? Legolas and Bolg had a horse and a warg but Bard only have a boat and would not have gone far before Smaug would found them.


LSF
Gondor

May 8 2016, 9:51am

Post #7 of 234 (3367 views)
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correction on my warg comment [In reply to] Can't Post

Soyry, they were used in the battle, though it didn't look like they were part of the main army and were only in the chariot part.


StingingFly
Lorien

May 8 2016, 10:54am

Post #8 of 234 (3354 views)
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Agreed, for the most part [In reply to] Can't Post

1 yes, they should have used Kili, that would have made a lot more sense, especially if he did something reckless (as is his nature) to get captured.
2 they went up the trees to get away from the wolves, which was a good move. They should have gotten down to fight when Azog arrived. They reason they didn't in the book was they were surrounded by an army of goblins and wolves. In the movie they were on the edge of a cliff, so they could have reasonably defended their position without being flanked.
3 Balin is old, old people do wierd stuff...he probably thought he was using his 'inside' voice
4a yes, Legolas was petty and annoying
4b a bigger problem was the 'Chase scene' where Smaug turns into a Scooby Do villain
5 Hillarious.
6 Bard may have made a calculation that running would have been pointless and the only hope for survival was to kill Smaug using the Windlance.
7 the battle conversation was ok, Dain head butting orcs to death was dumb.
How about #8 Gandalf going into Dul Guldur alone when he strongly suspected that Sauron and the Nine were there. There's brave and there's foolish. It wasn't like he was sneaking around trying to gather information. He was going room to room shouting at the top of his lungs.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 8 2016, 1:30pm

Post #9 of 234 (3338 views)
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Po-tay-to, po-tah-to [In reply to] Can't Post

Professor Tolkien has the Dwarves of the company acting like morons quite often as well.

- They start the Quest of Erebor poorly armed, seemingly with nothing beyond utilitarian knives and perhaps bows for hunting, and nothing in the way of even the lightest armor.

- They investigate the Troll-camp mostly in ones and twos, wandering in and for the most part getting easily caught. Even Thorin, their leader, can't do better than a burning branch for a weapon.

- None of them think to call out to the reveling Wood-elves in the clearing instead of announcing themselves by walking into it.

- The Dwarves can't figure out even the approximate date of their own New Year's Day even though it should be easy to determine when the last (new?) moon before the onset of Winter should fall. Even if they couldn't be sure that there would be a Durin's Day in any given year, they should at least know that much.

- Thorin, captured by the Wood-elves, doesn't at least attempt to use the same excuse for the presence of the company that they used with the goblins: traveling to visit relatives in the east. Surely the Elvenking knows of Dain in the Iron Hills.

- As in the films, they have no plans for dealing with Smaug beyond burglary.

- No one among the Dwarves try to talk Thorin out of his hardline stance against cutting a deal with the Elves and Men.

This doesn't excuse PJ's plotting, but it does show that there is plenty of precedence for the Dwarves making poor decisions. Oh, and about Bard simply fleeing Lake-town with his family:

In Reply To
Gee, where could they go...Rivendell, Gondor, Shire, Mirkwood, Bree, Rohan, namely anywhere else in Middle Earth. Legolas and Bolg both arrived in Laketown after Bard said this, and were long gone gone by the time the dragon showed up. Thus establishing that Bard and his family could have also left.


Don't underestimate distances in Middle-earth and the difficulties of traveling late in the year. Where could Bard go with little in the way of food and supplies? The Wood-elves where the only large community of folk who were less than several weeks away.

"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."


- Dream of the Endless


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 8 2016, 1:39pm)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 8 2016, 2:25pm

Post #10 of 234 (3319 views)
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Wow, where do I begin? [In reply to] Can't Post

Peeve #1 - totally reject your logic here. Exactly what "tactical advantage" did Thorin have? They'd been hammering away at these three trolls for several minutes, and hadn't even made a DENT in any of them, and then one of their own is captured. And you answered your own question when you acknowledged that your "solution" would have changed the book, so why even go there?

Peeve #2 - NOBODY ran up a burning tree, what are you talking about? And again, that was in the book. But, at some point Fili & Kili defended their Uncle "with shield & body," also in the book, so that scene was moved to the first movie (talk to PJ about it). As for the ending, yeah 13 Dwarves wouldn't have made a physical or tactical difference to the final battle, so it was more motivational that the Dwarves were fighting for their King. Yeah, that line about "no more than 100" was pretty dumb, something closer to 20 would have been better, but that also has no bearing on the scene where they run up the trees to escape the Orcs & wargs.

Peeve #3 - To me this isn't even a big enough deal to care about; can't believe it ruined the movie for you.

Peeve #4 - The infamous subplot. I could have done without the romantic triangle myself, but I don't think excluding it would have changed Legolas in any way. The way he threatened Thorin in Mirkwood, "Do not think I won't kill you, Dwarf, it would be my pleasure," was so vastly different from the Legolas in FoTR who merely thought the Dwarves were annoying is what destroyed his character, along with some OTT stunts. And I think if Tauriel died during BOTFA, that would have given Legolas LESS, not more reason to dislike the Dwarves. So no, I don't think killing her off would have been a good move. OTOH, her last line with Thranduil, and his reply, yeah, BLECK! Frown

Peeve #5 - Where did you get the idea that everyone trusted Alfrid? NOBODY did. I don't think even Bard trusted him, but he seemed to be willing to give Alfrid the benefit of the doubt. Foolish, yes, but also part of Bard's character.

Peeve #6 - Your assumptions are all wrong. Fili told Bard to take his children out of town, and Bard replied, "where will we go?" I mean really, have you seen Smaug? No, they didn't have much chance to get away from a dragon the size of two 747 jets. And the kids couldn't have "talked Bard into staying because he was the town's only hope," as you put it, because they didn't know about the black arrow until he showed it to them. But the children's leaving without him was implied in his conversation with Bain - "Why didn't you leave? You were supposed to leave!" A bit contradictory for sure, but yeah, the kids were supposed to leave.

Peeve #7 - Totally wrong, IMO. Everything you said here. Now of course, you and I are probably not going to agree on everything, and that's fine. One man's bore-fest is another man's (or woman's, in my case) exciting and fun visual treat. In fact, I think I'm going to go watch it again. I'm personally very glad that there were three movies. Yep, very glad!Heart

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


wizzardly
Rohan


May 8 2016, 3:33pm

Post #11 of 234 (3279 views)
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excellent post [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
What Peter Jackson Should Have Done: Not made three movies. He clearly had too much filler. Instead of one hour long bore fest, he could have had an intense ten minute final battle to wrap things up.


And that's it right there. He had way too much screentime to fill, and no idea how to do it, as he admitted himself when he said "I didn't know what the hell I was doing."


Avandel
Half-elven


May 8 2016, 3:51pm

Post #12 of 234 (3280 views)
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I feel the same.... [In reply to] Can't Post

about some movies! But re:


Quote
I have nothing to add because I made peace with the fact I will never like these films - So I just pretend they don't exist!






Really? I WISH I could find PEACEFrown. My life has been destroyed by a bunch of hairy guys and
a Hobbit!LaughLaughLaugh




I HAD serenityShocked. Oh, I'd read LOTR once in while, watch LOTR once in while, then they were back on the shelf and I was off to scroll Amazon for the latest in FREE BOOKS...and then...








Now I actually know what Khuzdul is! I read pages on Medieval weapons and forging techniques! My computer is full of folders of Middle Earth Art! I've had my brain seared by the *unholy imaginings*Evil of
fan fiction (as well as lots of laughs)! Rude phases comprised of Mahal + round objects are part of my
daily vocabulary (at needEvil)! I didn't even know who Mahal was!

OMG, I actually contemplate reading the Sil! I watch Game of Thrones and see a dragon and think of SmaugHeart! I wistfully hit the 'Net hoping against hope for some *hitherato* unreleased Hobbit images! I dream of the uber-ultra-deluxe-mega-cut of the Hobbit!Tongue



And I won't even comment on the original post,'coz other TORn-ers already did.



Love these movies! Love, love, loveHeartHeartHeartCool









LittleHobbit
Lorien

May 8 2016, 4:06pm

Post #13 of 234 (3276 views)
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You are wrong. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And that's it right there. He had way too much screentime to fill, and no idea how to do it, as he admitted himself when he said "I didn't know what the hell I was doing."


That statement of PJ was taken OUT OF CONTEXT. Read this: http://www.theonering.net/...g-storm-in-a-teacup/. PJ doesn't think the Hobbit trilogy is bad by any means. And neither do I, for that matter. Cool


(This post was edited by LittleHobbit on May 8 2016, 4:06pm)


wizzardly
Rohan


May 8 2016, 4:30pm

Post #14 of 234 (3252 views)
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still [In reply to] Can't Post

Edited though it may be...you have to admit the editor sure had a lot of material to work with. And PJ did actually say that he was making things up as he went along and the now infamous "winging it" comment. Sure they "overcame" the obstacles because....the movie was released. But the process was clearly not ideal, and I'm certain if they could go back and do it all again, we would have a completely different adaptation.

The youtube video was edited because most people don't have time to sit through a 45 minute behind the scenes of a mediocre hollywood hack job. Nothing was taken out of context as they claimed after it blew up the internet. They weren't just going to sit back and say "yeah its true, we didn't have enough time to prepare. It's a total disaster." They have dvds and super extended blu rays to sell afterall.


moreorless
Gondor

May 9 2016, 6:51am

Post #15 of 234 (3097 views)
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The book characters are actually considerably more "moronic"... [In reply to] Can't Post

As you point out the book characters make much more in the way of clear tactical errors, most obviously the idea that Bilbo is going to somehow steal the entire treasure hoard at Erebor. Really though I view this as simply a product of the kind of story the Hobbit is, its not an attempt at a serious story with tactical choices akin to LOTR but a children's whimsical fantasy.
The issue really isn't that Jackson makes the characters "dumber" but that he tries to elevate the story from that to something a bit closer to LOTR, some changes are made to cast the characters as more serious and smarter but to really repeat LOTR I think he would have had to dump a great deal of material from the book.
Ultimately I think he goes for a middle ground which I think is clearly reflected in the overall tone being more cartoonish than LOTR, something that's clearly a deliberate choice.


Starling
Half-elven


May 9 2016, 7:13am

Post #16 of 234 (3095 views)
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So many morons... [In reply to] Can't Post

so little time...




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 9 2016, 12:06pm

Post #17 of 234 (3044 views)
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Agreed... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure myself that is particularly useful to break Tolkien's The Hobbit down and critique it as though it was a novel written for adults. It is, after all, a children's fairy tale told as a bedtime story and is best viewed that way. Unfortunately for The Hobbit, its sequel turned out to be a different animal, aimed at a larger and more general readership and had a more serious tone and plot. The earlier book just cannot compare to the trilogy at the same level. They are apples and oranges despite the setting and characters that they have in common.

The above is why it was not necessarily a great idea to try to make the Hobbit movies feel more like Jackson's LotR films. It works to some extent, partly because the story does become more serious as it progresses--especially near the end. However, the changes still often feel awkward and sometimes ill-advised. For myself, this is most true where Jackson departs from both the original book and the later trilogy.

"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."

- Dream of the Endless


Noria
Gondor

May 9 2016, 12:16pm

Post #18 of 234 (3048 views)
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Can't agree with the OP [In reply to] Can't Post

Like many others here, I feel that the book characters are much more moronic than their film counterparts. That works fine in the kid's book but not so much in a these bigger movies. In fact I think that one of the difficulties in making these films, one of the reasons that the plot and characters were tweaked, was to make the Dwarves seem less idiotic.

Even though at that stage he has little more than contempt for Bilbo, Thorin was too honourable to watch him be dismembered by the Trolls if he could prevent it. Itís exactly the same reason he almost got himself killed rescuing Bilbo in the Stone Giant sequence.

I too rolled my eyes a bit at Balin shouting out ďBilboĒ in the Elf Kingís dungeons and Thorinís admittedly nonsensical remark about only a hundred Orcs but these lines and others like them didnít do a whit to destroy my enjoyment of the movies. Neither do most of the OPís peeves but other posters have responded to those more than adequately.

PJís remarks about not knowing what he was doing applied to the actual battle of TBOFA. So he stopped production, thought about it, worked out what he wanted to do and did it. IMO, all thatís not so surprising given that he had to step up to direct this production with inadequate time to prepare.

These movies thrill, move and entertain me greatly and sometimes they exasperate me slightly, but one thing they never do is bore me.


Avandel
Half-elven


May 9 2016, 2:11pm

Post #19 of 234 (3024 views)
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Applauds - thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

That statement of PJ was taken OUT OF CONTEXT. Read this: http://www.theonering.net/...g-storm-in-a-teacup/. PJ doesn't think the Hobbit trilogy is bad by any means. And neither do I, for that matter. Cool

(And I'll just add some of the things described as "moronic" don't seem so to me, and never did. Thorin's remark about the attacking goblins, for instance. For me I instantly saw a pack of chittering little things - GOBLIN MERCENARIES - which instantly translated as "obnoxious flea-like things and probably would save their own skin given the chance." I always enjoy that bit of dwarven badasseryCool - for me it's something to smile over in a relatively grim scene that rapidly gets grimmer.

The script didn't say "no more than a 100 troll-orcs who are quite a bit larger than us, and fanatically loyal to Azog." Indeed, I think the movie really gets rightHeart - and the attention to scale and believeability was amazing - the desperate battles with the orcs on Ravenhill.)


Avandel
Half-elven


May 9 2016, 2:33pm

Post #20 of 234 (3015 views)
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Profit isn't everything but.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Just sayin'. Sadly the cheap media who bandied about PJ's honest exhaustion instead of applauding the man and crew who pushed hard through 18 hour days and forged three wonderful filmsMad (including BOFA with Dain and Thorin and Thranduil's elk ride to Dale - e.g. images and scenes I wouldn't want to give up) - the cheap media would have been having a field day if BOFA had bombed.Unimpressed

There would have been the usual slew of snark articles as there were about "Lone Ranger" analyzing the whole thing zzzzzzzz and conveniently forgetting films like "Waterworld" can become cult favorites and/or turn a profit in the DVD/BR market. (Or that fact that a lot of these folks couldn't get a movie together if they had a quarter million dollar budget and an entire studio at hand).Unimpressed


Quote
When it comes to evaluating the financial performance of top movies, it isnít about what a film grosses at the box office. The true tale is told when production budgets, P&A, talent participations and other costs collide with box office grosses, and ancillary revenues from VOD to DVD and TV. To get close to that mysterious end of the equation, Deadline is repeating our Most Valuable Blockbuster tournament, using data culled by seasoned and trusted sources. Weíre counting down from No. 20 and will present the data en masse Monday.

THE BOTTOM LINE:
Our experts report that the final installment lagged slightly behind the domestic box of the previous two Hobbit films, and they estimate the total cost on this one was $300 million. That, plus first-dollar gross for Peter Jackson and possibly Guillermo del Toro, and MGMís position, and cash break deals for the cast led our experts to peg the participations on this film to be $85M. This leaves Warner Bros with an estimated net profit of $103.38M, with Cash on Cash return of 1.15.

But hey, people get paid when they star in six pictures. And the entire six-picture series is one of the great success stories of this era in Hollywood. Starting from 1995, when Harvey Weinstein was told he couldnít make the series by Disneyís Michael Eisner. Down to his last shot at a turnaround deal, Jackson pitched two movies to New Line chief Bob Shaye, who bet his whole company on three. The Hobbit had its own set of gyrations that included setting del Toro to direct and co-write with Jackson, Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens, only to see the whole thing come to a screeching halt when MGM became frozen in bankruptcy. GdT moved on to Pacific Rim and Jackson restored himself as director. Add a perforated ulcer for Jackson, and a decision to split two intended movies into three films.

Despite the tsuris, the collective accomplishment here is unprecedented. The six films grossed nearly $6 billion; won 17 Oscars, including Best Picture for Return Of The King, on a total of 36 Oscar nominations; New Zealand firmly established as a production and post-production hub for event films, all built on Middle Earth revenues. Two of the six films grossed north of $1 billion: Return Of The King at $1.1B and The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey at $1B. What a ride!



http://deadline.com/2015/03/hobbit-battle-of-the-five-armies-profit-box-office-2014-1201390467/

It's nice this article actually mentions disk profits, tho I don't think it goes far enough if commenting on the affordability of home theaters; increased piracy; the easy availability of disks and streaming so you don't even need to leave your house - all of which came into being after LOTR and does affect BO (I haven't even dragged myself out to see the Jungle Book yet - will I? won't I? don't know yetUnsure If I don't, it doesn't matter, because I'll see it at home soon....)


Lindele
Gondor

May 9 2016, 4:01pm

Post #21 of 234 (2995 views)
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that's convenient [In reply to] Can't Post

so they had time to sift through the doc to find the negative comments but no time to find the comments in the same doc that provided solutions or resolutions. talk about an apologist!

no matter what you want to tell yourself, the youtube video painted the production in a completely different light than the original doc did and therefore was false.


dormouse
Half-elven


May 9 2016, 4:20pm

Post #22 of 234 (2999 views)
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Do you? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think they turned anyone into a moron.

As for wondering if anyone agrees with you, where have you been? I'd have thought it was - forgive me - obvious - that some folks here will be very happy to agree with you because, like you, they don't like the films, don't like Peter Jackson, and like having the chance to sound off about it once in a while. (As do we all...)

And some of us don't agree with you. I don't for one - but I can see that our reaction to the films is so different that we're barely even speaking the same language.

Just one observation (of many possible): They didn't climb burning trees - they climbed trees to escape orcs and - selective memory here, no? - wargs (nasty big hairy ones, with fangs). the burning came later. And this was what Tolkien said they did...

Just one question. When in the films do we see a tiny toddler kill an orc?

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


wizzardly
Rohan


May 9 2016, 10:55pm

Post #23 of 234 (2907 views)
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oh ok [In reply to] Can't Post

So what you're saying is that in the clips on youtube where PJ is talking about "winging it", not knowing what he was doing, and making it up as he went along, he wasn't actually talking about the making of the Hobbit? If thats the case I agree, the editor of that video was not very nice to do that and should be forced to make a public apology.


(This post was edited by entmaiden on May 10 2016, 1:18pm)


Avandel
Half-elven


May 10 2016, 12:26am

Post #24 of 234 (2887 views)
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Stahp (; [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
So what you're saying is that in the clips on youtube where PJ is talking about "winging it", not knowing what the hell he was doing, and making it up as he went along, he wasn't actually talking about the making of the Hobbit? If thats the case I agree, the editor of that video was not very nice to do that and should be forced to make a public apology.


Lame media types, politicians, folks with an axe to grind and so on just love to leap on a phrase and use it like a tag line on a banner - usually smugly and repetitively. Conveniently forgetting that humans communicate in multiple ways, with multiple sublteties. And often conveniently forgetting the expertise and experience of whoever made the statement.

If a favorite car mechanic is rummaging around an engine and says "he's trying this and that" do folks get all freaked out? 'Course not. They're happy they are at their favorite, honest, experienced mechanic's shop and an expert is rummaging around in their car trying this and that, and will work until the job is done.

PJ saying he doesn't know what he's doing just made me smile a little (and feel bad because he was so tired and had been in a hospital before). Because he's PJ. Just like I smiled a little seeing the footage of PJ talking about how complex LOTR was and how the next thing he does was going to be simple and so on. Just like the crew listening just seemed to know that PJ needed to vent a little and at the end of the day, there's gonna be some awesome films.Tongue

I totally agree w. WETA's comments about some of the press and PJ's remarksMad - some of the press/bloggers were just doing cheap shots. Over films w. praised performances, battle choreography, kudos for trying new technology even if folks didn't always like it, visuals, and so on. Films that raked in millions. IMO it will be long time before Middle Earth is in better hands, with a director with that kind of vision, crew, cast, writers.HeartHeartHeart



ange1e4e5
Rohan

May 10 2016, 2:54am

Post #25 of 234 (2865 views)
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We all make mistakes. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I always follow my job through.

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