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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Do the Hobbit movies capture the "spirit" of the book?
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Starling
Half-elven


May 2 2016, 6:10am

Post #251 of 275 (3124 views)
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So you haven't seen the third film? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 




Starling
Half-elven


May 2 2016, 6:14am

Post #252 of 275 (3130 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

It is definitely a topic that warrants further discussion.
And was it you suggesting a thread about quality children's films? That sounds like a great idea for a discussion too.

PS, I have really enjoyed reading your contributions to this thread. It would be good to see more of you around Off Topic too.




Glorfindela
Valinor


May 3 2016, 6:24pm

Post #253 of 275 (3072 views)
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I don't think the films did capture the book's 'spirit' [In reply to] Can't Post

No – not at all, but then I wouldn't have liked the film to be 'like the book', essentially a book that Tolkien wrote for children.

For me, the closest film to the book (though still a long way away from it) was the first one. The second and third films were completely unlike the book, with merely the names tallying – and not even them at that in many cases. With the character of Alfrid, I feel PJ really went off on one…


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on May 3 2016, 6:26pm)


Jettorex
Lorien


May 3 2016, 8:43pm

Post #254 of 275 (3057 views)
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no [In reply to] Can't Post

For the most part no. I don't think they did. I think they captured the spirit of LotR.


- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."


My Book---> www.amazon.com/Popcornmaker


wizzardly
Rohan


May 3 2016, 10:41pm

Post #255 of 275 (3069 views)
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No I haven't [In reply to] Can't Post

Morbid curiosity led me to a few clips on youtube, mainly for closure. DoS was so horrible, I knew there was no chance of redemption.


LittleHobbit
Lorien

May 5 2016, 4:58pm

Post #256 of 275 (3006 views)
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So...? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Tolkien's Hobbit was a story for children. PJ decided to keep only the very basic structure of the story, and do his own thing with it. He removed almost all of the whimsical children's storytelling elements, like talking animals,purses, and poetry, and replaced it with more orcs, an over emphasis on violence, sexual innuendo and boogers. His idea of keeping within the parameters of a children's story was the addition of ott action sequences that looked like video game cut scenes...cause you know, kids like video games.

But I really wanted to like these movies...I went to the midnight showing of the first two...AUJ wasn't good, but I had hope that there was still a chance it could be at least ok...after DoS I was done. And from clips I've seen of some of the the supposed "best" scenes of BotFA, I know my prediction was correct. It wasn't going to get any better.


I see nothing wrong with removing those elements. He was just trying to make this new trilogy fit better with the previous LOTR trilogy. And since he didn't have eagles talk in LOTR as well (or whatever other animals which talked in the book -- I haven't read it in a while), there was no reason why he would have animals talk here either.

I also don't agree with the 'video game sequences' part. Most of the action scenes here are just as implausible as any other action films... I think no one can reasonably expect much realism in movies of this type.

Your last paragraph is ironic as I happen to think DOS and BOTFA are huge improvements on AUJ... at least movie/cinematic-wise.

(Perhaps the reason I like these movies so much is because I haven't read the book in about a decade, and thus don't remember most of it? Or at least would not have liked them as much if I had read it more recently?).

Obviously, there's no need to answer these two last questions..... it's just me thinking aloud. XD


LittleHobbit
Lorien

May 5 2016, 5:03pm

Post #257 of 275 (3001 views)
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Okay. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
I agree completely that it fits in a children's book, but I was replying to those who thought that this does fit, but other ''childish'' elements in the movies don't.


And so was I, except that I think my view is the opposite of your own. Many of Peter Jackson's gags in the films would feel out-of-place in Tolkien's book because that do nothing to add to the fairy-tale quality of the story but only represent the kind of rude, crude humor that Jackson is fond of (a trait he shares with Evil Dead director Sam Raimi).


Then I suppose we don't have any quarrels. :)


LittleHobbit
Lorien

May 5 2016, 5:23pm

Post #258 of 275 (3000 views)
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I think the problem is... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
EDIT: I want to add here ... I'm leaving the original text up there but it can be taken as haughty. What I mean is that this thread was started by asking about the spirit of the book so I've tried to cite distinct examples from the books (TH, TLOTR, TS, etc.) showing why I think I do about the spirit and tone whereas the affirmative case frequently jumps in with "I think the movie is okay because ...." or "I didn't like the way the book did it anyway because ..." As I've said, you can enjoy the movies, I do on one level. I just contend the movies do NOT reflect the spirt of the took and cite specific examples why.


Is that the question of whether the movies capture the ''spirit'' is so laughably subjective (no offense to the OP at all) that no ''correct'' answer can perhaps be attained... the best this thread can offer is people giving their more or less substantiated opinions... but nothing really subjective. So this is basically a ''I think that'' and ''In my opinion it'' type of discussion.

One of the most blatant problems being that we can't even define what we mean by the ''spirit'' of the book...


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 5 2016, 5:33pm

Post #259 of 275 (3001 views)
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Grounding Fantasy [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I also don't agree with the 'video game sequences' part. Most of the action scenes here are just as implausible as any other action films... I think no one can reasonably expect much realism in movies of this type.

I somewhat agree with your point that it is within PJ's rights to drop some of the more fair-tale elements of The Hobbit to bring it closer to the tone of his Lord of the Rings films. However, I also believe that the non-fantasy elements of the films should remain grounded in something closer to reality to make the magic and wonder stand out better.

"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."


- Dream of the Endless


LittleHobbit
Lorien

May 5 2016, 5:43pm

Post #260 of 275 (3000 views)
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Probably I do. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
You perhaps have a different set of standards in comparing book to movie.


I suppose I am just not overly nitpicky about adaptations or even movies in general, so the Kili/Tauriel line does not bother me at all. And even if it did, for the love of God, it's just ONE line in a trilogy that spans almost 10 hours... so it's not something I can give much thought about. Of course, I suppose you and a few others here have problems with 90% of the lines/scenes in this trilogy, so perhaps I can understand the complaint from your point of view, but as someone who is not in that camp, and thinks that overall this trilogy is pretty superb, I can only at best see it as a very, very minor annoyance.


(This post was edited by LittleHobbit on May 5 2016, 5:49pm)


LittleHobbit
Lorien

May 5 2016, 6:46pm

Post #261 of 275 (2978 views)
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Correction. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
but nothing really subjective


I obviously meant ''nothing really OBJECTIVE''. Writing in a hurry really sucks... ;) I hope there isn't any more errors...

Also, this forum should have an ''Edit'' button like others based on phpBB... I mean, after others have posted. What IS the plataform of this board, by the way? I certainly have not used one of this type before... not that I recall, anyway.


(This post was edited by LittleHobbit on May 5 2016, 6:48pm)


LSF
Gondor

May 5 2016, 6:49pm

Post #262 of 275 (2982 views)
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Same here [In reply to] Can't Post

While I am very picky in what I watch as entertainment, I'm not nitpicky. My requirements for an adaptation are: main characters and main story are there. After that, I want to see what the filmmaker does with the story and and characters. Sure, I could be annoyed that movie Harry Potter doesn't have green eyes and black hair, that Hermione's hair isn't 24/7 frizzy, Peeves is missing, Hermione's house-elf subplot is missing, the werewolf isn't exactly how Rowling described... Or I could take the movie as it is, and find enjoyment and faults in it as its own thing. Does what the movie do work for the movie itself? That's what matters to me.

As for the body-humour jokes that people have been talking about... even if I didn't like it, it's only 30-45 seconds in 9+hours. I want, whether I end up liking it or not, the filmmaker to inject their spirit into the product. I'd expect and want Del Toro to put his humour and whatever else he likes in it if he had done it. Same with anyone who had done it.


Morthoron
Gondor


May 5 2016, 9:44pm

Post #263 of 275 (2961 views)
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If that were the only complaint... [In reply to] Can't Post

then yes, that would be a minor nuisance. But since we are having a dialogue regarding whether or not 'the Hobbit movies capture the "spirit" of the book,' then it is germane and part and parcel of a much larger issue, as has been highlighted here in great detail.

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

May 5 2016, 10:16pm

Post #264 of 275 (2957 views)
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Making fantasy credible is a difficult task [In reply to] Can't Post

As Tolkien says in On Fairy Stories:


Quote
To make a Secondary World inside which the green sun will be credible, commanding Secondary Belief, will probably require labour and thought, and will certainly demand a special skill, a kind of elvish craft. Few attempt such difficult tasks. But when they are attempted and in any degree accomplished then we have a rare achievement of Art.


'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


wizzardly
Rohan


May 5 2016, 11:03pm

Post #265 of 275 (2949 views)
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so what? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I see nothing wrong with removing those elements. He was just trying to make this new trilogy fit better with the previous LOTR trilogy. And since he didn't have eagles talk in LOTR as well (or whatever other animals which talked in the book -- I haven't read it in a while), there was no reason why he would have animals talk here either.

I understand possibly why PJ would remove the more whimsical elements from the movies...however doing so changes the tone and spirit, and that is what this thread is about.


In Reply To
Most of the action scenes here are just as implausible as any other action films

I agree...PJ handled this adaption as if it were a Transformers movie. If he had stuck to the book, I believe the majority of the action sequences could have been pulled off with a modest amount of cgi, and it wouldn't have felt like I was watching videogame cut scenes.


In Reply To
Your last paragraph is ironic as I happen to think DOS and BOTFA are huge improvements on AUJ... at least movie/cinematic-wise.

I think you're misusing the term "ironic". The fact that you like the movies doesn't make my comment ironic, as I stand behind my opinion that these movies got progressively worse with each installment.


KW
Rivendell

May 6 2016, 1:47pm

Post #266 of 275 (2929 views)
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"kids like video games" [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Jackson does too. Supposedly a big fan of the Halo games, he has mentioned playing Halo 2 while filming King Kong and how much he loves the series.


LSF
Gondor

May 6 2016, 2:37pm

Post #267 of 275 (2919 views)
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Halo [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, he was in talks with Halo to make a film for it before Hobbit.

Know who else likes video games? Lots of adults from all walks of life Wink


wizzardly
Rohan


May 6 2016, 2:51pm

Post #268 of 275 (2915 views)
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sure [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing wrong with a bit of vidya every now and again. But there's a time and place for everything, and that type of action just feels particularly silly and fake when seeing it in movies. Also it just looks cheap and lazy.


(This post was edited by wizzardly on May 6 2016, 2:52pm)


KW
Rivendell

May 6 2016, 3:13pm

Post #269 of 275 (2906 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

My own point was that if a direct connection existed that it might not just be about appealing to a particular demographic but that one also might consider the possibility that games could be an aesthetic influence on Jackson.


Starling
Half-elven


May 6 2016, 8:53pm

Post #270 of 275 (2888 views)
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I read a few snippets of The Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

but I could tell it was lame so I didn't bother to finish it.
I might go and opine in the Reading Room about it.




wizzardly
Rohan


May 6 2016, 9:03pm

Post #271 of 275 (2876 views)
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fair enough [In reply to] Can't Post

Not everyone is going to be a fan of the book, and that's ok.


Noria
Gondor

May 10 2016, 12:52pm

Post #272 of 275 (2754 views)
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LOL Starling [In reply to] Can't Post

"I read a few snippets of The Hobbit but I could tell it was lame so I didn't bother to finish it.

I might go and opine in the Reading Room about it."

Wizzardly, I already disagreed with most of what you have to say about TH movies anyway but if you haven't even seen TBOFA, I won't be able to give your comments any serious consideration at all. Not that I expect you to to be worried by that!


wizzardly
Rohan


May 10 2016, 11:10pm

Post #273 of 275 (2716 views)
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it is true [In reply to] Can't Post

I never watched BoFA...I just couldn't bring myself to do it, however, like I said before, I forced myself to watch a few of the highlights via Youtube such as the deaths of Smaug, Thorin, Kili and Fili, as well as Legolas hangliding on a bat and the "Because it was real" scene. I believe the viewing of these scenes gave me a pretty good feel of the overall outcome of the movie.

You must understand, this was a Herculean effort on my part. My entire body was wracked with cringe spasms all throughout the viewing of said clips. But I didn't give up. I clenched my teeth and got through it. Now I ask you please, don't disregard my comments...not after what I have been through.


KW
Rivendell

May 13 2016, 8:41pm

Post #274 of 275 (2633 views)
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Psst! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=902849#902849


LittleHobbit
Lorien

Jun 15 2016, 12:57pm

Post #275 of 275 (2501 views)
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''So'' was referring to the complaints... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think you're misusing the term "ironic". The fact that you like the movies doesn't make my comment ironic, as I stand behind my opinion that these movies got progressively worse with each installment.


I may have worded it poorly. English is not my first language.

What I meant to say was just that the fact that you do have the exact opposite opinion of mine regarding the decreasing quality of the movies is an ironic fact. I wasn't saying you don't hold to your opinion (that would be quite impossible!).

Don't know if that makes it any clearer, but there you go.

As for the ''so''... I said ''so'' because I don't personally find your criticisms about the movies to be particularly relevant, i.e., I honestly believe most of it is nitpicking (not trying to sound like a jerk here).

This isn't exclusive to you, I think that of most of the ''criticisms'' directed towards The Hobbit Trilogy.

Cheers. Cool

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