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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 4 2016, 3:26pm
Post #1 of 32
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*** Ride of the Rohirrim ***, Return of the King Book V Chapter 5: Conversation 2 of 2
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First, a very brief synopsis of a very short chapter:
Four days on the way to Minas Tirith, the Rohirrim stop in Druadan Forest. Merry is riding with 'Dernhelm' in defiance of Theoden's orders. The Riders pretend not to see Merry, 'Dernhelm', or Oliphaunt who is sneaking along to see what's happening. They're close to their destination, within a day's ride. Unfortunately there's an enemy army waiting further along road. Merry learns that a group of Wild Men of the Woods are planning to sneak the thousands of Rohirrim around this blockade. Théoden cuts a deal with Ghan-buri-Ghan, leader of the Wild Men, and the Rohirrim approach Minas Tirith undetected. They easily pass the broken out-wall and some heedless orcs. Théoden pauses, perhaps in fear, and then hears the gates of Minas Tirith shattering. At this moment Théoden calls the Rohirrim to battle with an amazing speech, they break into song, and charge towards Minas Tirith.
Welcome Home Théoden!
King Théoden was born in Gondor, so arriving at Minas Tirith is a homecoming. There is a saying ‘you can never go home again’. King Théoden goes home and achieves great fame and glory, but for sure there are some big changes.
Arriving at the field before Gondor, Théoden "sat upon Snowmane, motionless, gazing upon the agony of Minas Tirith, as if stricken suddenly by anguish, or by dread. He seemed to shrink down, cowed by age." Was Théoden really afraid, as Merry thought?
Even if he was, he spurs to action when the Lord of the Nazgul breaks the gates of Minas Tirith:
"But at that same moment there was a flash, as if lightning had sprung from the earth beneath the City. For a searing second it stood dazzling far off in black and white, its topmost tower like a glittering needle: and then as the darkness closed again there came rolling over the fields a great boom.
At that sound the bent shape of the king sprang suddenly erect. Tall and proud he seemed again; and rising in his stirrups he cried in a loud voice, more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before"
How did King Théoden speak "more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before"? How much lung pressure does it take blow such a blast upon a great horn to make it "burst asunder"? He's likened to "Orome the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young". Could King Théoden be getting some holy assistance from Orome to accomplish these super-human feats?
Now we come to one of my favorite quotes:
“Arise,arise, Riders of Théoden!
Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter!
spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,
a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor! “
Like Merry, I wish I "was a tall Rider like Éomer and could blow a horn or something and go galloping"! But, I'm just a little Oliphaunt. For me, the repeating sounds make this great to read out loud. For example: sp-sh-sh-sh-sp in “spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered”.
How far apart are King Théoden and Denethor! Denethor, speaking about Sauron to Pippin says: "He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons?" But Théoden says: "If the war is lost, what good will be my hiding in the hills? And if it is won, what grief will it be, even if I fall, spending my last strength?" Denthor is cheap with himself, Théoden spends freely.
Now, to be fair to Sauron, he has personally been in battles in the past. He did manage to kill both Elendil and Gil-Galad, but that cost him the Ring.
What about our other leaders? We see Aragorn lead in battle, charging out of Helm’s Deep with Theoden. Treebeard leads the Ents to Orthanc. Saruman sure doesn’t lead into battle, nor the Lord of the Nazgul. What about Gandalf? When Gandalf returns to Minas Tirith from the Causeway Forts, Denethor taunts him: "Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?" Not true, of course, and Gandalf responds humbly: "'It might be so,’ Gandalf answered softly. ‘But our trial of strength is not yet come.'" When is it wise for a leader to stay away from the front line, and when is it wise for a leader to assume great risk?
Rockin' Rohirrim
What are they singing? Presumably they have a repertoire of war songs. I had a hard time imagining singing while stabbing, slashing and trampling. It's a scary image, an army so at ease they can sing while in battle.
Curious about similar events in history, I found Aeschylus' “PERSIANS”. It was written shortly after the Greeks defeated the Persians in a naval conflict 5th century BC. We hear about the Persian's dawn battle with the Greeks:
"Then Day arrived on her chariot, pulled by her white steeds, and she flooded the whole earth with her bright beauty; and at that very moment a shrieking war cry rang out from the Greeks! A song that echoed all about us from every rock and crag on the island. A song of terror that engulfed us all. Fear shook everyone of the barbarians. Their hopes of victory was proven false. This was no solemn song the Greeks were singing. This was no song of grief and of defeat. This was a song sprung from deep in their war-clogged hearts. They were charging into the battle with fearless zeal and, right through their whole line, the trumpet’s voice fired them up into brave action. And suddenly, their flat oars obeyed some command and they sliced the salty waters of the deep. Almost immediately after that, they were there, in front of us! First came their right wing: orderly, calmly and then, close behind it, came the rest of their fleet. They rushed hard at us with a great shout: “Charge! Greek men, set your country free! Save your children, your wives, the holy temples of your fathers’ gods, the sacred tombs of your ancestors! Now is the time to fight for all these things!” The Persians answered that shout with a frightened murmur… but there was no time to do anything. "
from AESCHYLUS’“PERSIANS” TRANSLATED BY G. THEODORIDIS (This work may be freely reproduced, stored and transmitted, electronically or otherwise, for any NON-COMMERCIAL purpose)
Compare to:
"And straightway all horns in the host were lifted up in music, and the blowing of the horns of Rohan in that hour was like a storm upon the plain and a thunder in the mountains.
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!
...For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City."
As I understand it, J. R. R. Tolkien started out as a Classical scholar. Might he have read Aeschylus (in the original language, of course!)? Or are there lots of singing warriors in history?
“hoofs of wrath” How awesome! Go War Horses! Did you know more horses died at Somme than men? As an aside, I liked the movie by that name.
*************************************************************************************
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
May 4 2016, 4:47pm
Post #2 of 32
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How did King Théoden speak "more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before"? How much lung pressure does it take blow such a blast upon a great horn to make it "burst asunder"? He's likened to "Orome the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young". Could King Théoden be getting some holy assistance from Orome to accomplish these super-human feats?
I'm inclined to think this is a bit of hyperbole.
If you take the story as 'real' the only witnesses would be Rohirrim riders and one hobbit, so any person collecting testimony would get a Rohirric take on the scene. This kind of epic quality in a story is what I would associate with a warrior culture like Rohan where fame and glory are a sort of immortality for heroes.
How far apart are King Théoden and Denethor! Denethor, speaking about Sauron to Pippin says: "He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons?" But Théoden says: "If the war is lost, what good will be my hiding in the hills? And if it is won, what grief will it be, even if I fall, spending my last strength?" Denthor is cheap with himself, Théoden spends freely.
Now, to be fair to Sauron, he has personally been in battles in the past. He did manage to kill both Elendil and Gil-Galad, but that cost him the Ring.
I think this is a great contrast. Both Denethor and Théoden are committed to victory, however Denethor is content to live in agony, where Théoden doesn't see the point of survival if the day is lost. Denethor never doubts victory because he rightly doesn't imagine he will live if defeated. Théoden is more open to the idea of personal defeat and it isn't such a source of despair for him because live or die he can claim himself victorious.
I think Denethor makes the success of his cause the basis for evaluating his personal success. Théoden counts the achievements in his personal cause/ involvement towards the betterment or detriment of the whole cause. Denethor is (or wants us to think so) not disappointed if he loses everything if only Gondor survives (Projecting the success of the Gondorian cause inward onto his personal successe), but Théoden's personal code will not allow him to do anything less than his best because he projects his failures onto the cause of Rohan. Théoden takes ownership of the cause, Denethor is consumed by it.
I think part of this distinction is in the type of government tsomeone brought up in the last thread. In Gondor it is a more or less traditional monarchy. (i.e. You obey the King/leader because he is king/leader). In Rohan the concept is that of fealty (i.e. a mutually beneficial social contract-- follow the gold-giver)-- The men serve well because the lord is a good lord.
What are they singing? Presumably they have a repertoire of war songs. I had a hard time imagining singing while stabbing, slashing and trampling. It's a scary image, an army so at ease they can sing while in battle.
An Anglo-Saxon thing? Maybe it's poetic... War cries are music to a warrior's ears?
Sing a song of long lament
The days be past, the years are spent
The flames of fire, on funeral pyre
The warrior's soul it's wing'd way hath sent
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enanito
Rohan
May 4 2016, 5:57pm
Post #3 of 32
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Marching songs vs Fighting songs
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Back in the "Flotsam and Jetsam" discussion, I remarked on the singing in unison of the Ents as they marched to war:I’m always amazed at the ability of large groups to spontaneously sing long-winded songs in unison. In this chapter we get a second recounting of the song the Ents sing as they march (previously described in Chapter 4 as well). My question: in these tales, who makes up the lyrics, are texts handed out for reference, and do they practice before the march begins? And when you forget the words, do you just softly sing “watermelon, watermelon” so nobody notices?
Now here I'm even more impressed, since the Rohirrim sing not while marching evenly along, but during the chaos of battle! I imagine Gimli likely had enough trouble just keeping an accurate running count of his kills, and singing in unison while slaying your foes seems a bit more involved than just counting :)
(This post was edited by enanito on May 4 2016, 6:03pm)
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enanito
Rohan
May 4 2016, 6:19pm
Post #4 of 32
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Clarity due to severe contrast?
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I agree there's a bit of overstatement here with Theoden speaking more clearly than any mortal before him. But I like to think that perhaps in this case the clarity achieved was in part due to the contrast of his bold and fearless voice against the darkness of Mordor.
Although we have changing winds and glimpses of a possible sunrise from the south, the Rohirrim are still fully enmeshed in the darkness of Sauron's evil will. Sauron's focus is obviously on the Gates of Minas Tirith at this moment, I imagine the feeling the Rohirrim had so close to the walls, was of being cowered and not boldly defying the Dark Lord. So Theoden's open challenge to Sauron was even more stark and clear given the time and place.
Kinda like how Galadriel's phial would shine even brighter in Shelob's dark lair, partly due to its matching Shelob's power, but also partly due to the contrast in its purity compared to Shelob's malice.
And no I'm not saying this makes Theoden unique (plenty of other mortal heroes in M.E. also found themselves in dark and evil places). Just trying to think it through a bit...
(This post was edited by enanito on May 4 2016, 6:21pm)
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Meneldor
Valinor
May 4 2016, 8:05pm
Post #5 of 32
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I can't remember the details, but I remember reading about a Confederate general telling a victorious Union general that his rebels could have won the battle "if we'd had your Battle Hymn of the Republic." I guess Dixie just didn't cut it in that battle.
In my head, the Rohirrim battle song sounded similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AKP7I0Ul18
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Al Carondas
Lorien
May 4 2016, 11:16pm
Post #6 of 32
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There is also this line from a modern "celtic" ballad:
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Man, I still think them cats are crazy!
from "The Boys are Back in Town" by Thin Lizzy
The image of the Riders of Rohan that Tolkien gives us:
And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them
More than anything else this image makes me think: man, them cats are crazy. They don't just battle. They don't just battle fearlessly. They delight in battle. It's quite a different image than that we have of Gondor's soldiers, who seem to me to be more disciplined, orderly, and businesslike.
I'm not sure what the songs would sound like, or what the precedents might be. I imagine the singing would end up being quite chaotic once the eored went crashing into the ranks of the enemy, even if it began in harmony at the start of the charge. It would definitely freak me out if I were the enemy, as in the passage that you cite from "Persians", Oliphaunt. It also seems to me that amid the chaos of battle it would be heartening to hear the voices of your comrades lifted in song all around you. It seems to me that it would maintain a sense of unity amid the confusion of battle.
"Good Morning!"
(This post was edited by Al Carondas on May 4 2016, 11:16pm)
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Al Carondas
Lorien
May 4 2016, 11:59pm
Post #7 of 32
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The difference between Denethor and Theoden
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Is akin to the difference between the head and the heart
"He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons?"
What is particularly significant to me in Denethor's words here is his comparison of himself to Sauron. He implies here that Sauron is a 'great lord' and goes on to categorize himself the same way. It disturbs me that Gondor's ruler would be comfortable aligning himself with Sauron in this way. Denethor seems to have arrived at the point where he no longer sees this war as a contest between good and evil. He seems to view it more pragmatically as a contest between Mordor and Gondor. As Tolkien explains to W.H. Auden (Letters, #183):
Denethor was tainted with mere politics: hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather than because he was ruthless and wicked.
Thus, Denethor was not 'fighting the good fight' - the struggle against evil; he was simply fighting for Gondor's survival. And when he judged that the fight could not possibly be won, he no longer had any reason to fight - or desire to survive. Theoden, on the other hand, is fighting because he believes it is the right thing to do. For Theoden there is no need for hope nor for the possibility of victory to motivate him to fight. To fight is enough. Fighting is in itself a victory, and to die fighting is the only fit way to die.
"Good Morning!"
(This post was edited by Al Carondas on May 5 2016, 12:00am)
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Al Carondas
Lorien
May 5 2016, 12:36am
Post #8 of 32
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As with Rembrethil, I immediately thought that some hyperbole on the part of the minstrels might account for the seemingly superhuman feats ascribed to Theoden at the onset of the charge. Yet, I think I am as taken with the idea that this is poetic license as I am with the idea that this is actually truth - a truth so incredible that it only seems like poetic license to us, the cynical descendants of these more heroic times. For the thought also occurs to me that many young Hobbits eventually come to the conclusion (after many recitations) that a similar kind of hyperbole exists in the poem "Oliphaunt". And yet clearly, as Sam himself would confirm, Oliphaunts are indeed everything the minstrels promise, and more! So, who's to say about God-like voices and shattered horns?
I also think it's particularly cool that the poem "Oliphaunt" anticipates this very dilemma:
If ever you'd met me/ You wouldn't forget me./ If you never do,/ You won't think I'm true;/ But old Oliphaunt am I,/ And I never lie.
I love that all of Tolkien's story, in fact, is shrouded in this sort of ambiguity, leaving it up to the reader to decide where fact is stranger than fiction.
(except, of course for the poem "Oliphaunt", which is indisputably fact.)
"Good Morning!"
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Kimi
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 5 2016, 2:17am
Post #9 of 32
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From more modern times: a mere hundred years ago
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The Maori Battalion went into battle at Gallipoli. New Zealand historian James Cowan wrote of their attack on Table Top Hill:
"The Maoris went into that splendid attack, their first battle with the bayonet, in a mood of savage determination and delight. This was their chance for fame. They went grimly for those Turks, bayoneted them in their lines, they burst into a tremendous haka when they had cleared the trenches - 'Ka mate, ka mate, ka ora, ka ora!' - then silence as they pressed on to the next point."
Members of our current Defence force performing a haka for their fallen comrades.
The Passing of Mistress Rose
My historical novels
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 5 2016, 8:00am
Post #10 of 32
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It's certainly Theoden's supreme moment
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that sound the bent shape of the king sprang suddenly erect. Tall and proud he seemed again; and rising in his stirrups he cried in a loud voice, more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before"
How did King Théoden speak "more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before"? How much lung pressure does it take blow such a blast upon a great horn to make it "burst asunder"? He's likened to "Orome the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young". Could King Théoden be getting some holy assistance from Orome to accomplish these super-human feats?
Oliphaunt - OP
It's certainly Theoden's supreme moment - he has battled age, illness, bereavement , sorcery, warfare and doubt to be here, fulfilling his duty, at the key moment. If it's poetic hyperbole it works to show us this visually.
Tolkien wisely leaves us to make of it what we will. For anyone wanting to consider a more literal reading, I have a couple of suggestions.
In Norse cultures, warriors did what they understood as magic - becoming shamanically one with fearsome beasts such as wolves or bears in order to do battle. They were known as berserkers, and they were accessing a strength they did not normally have - whether that was magical or through self-hypnosis.
I'd also like tentatively to suggest an idea I don't understand all that well, in order to invite contributions (including rebuttal). In old Christian tradition, living saints were believed to do miracles. My understanding is that they were not thought to be like wizards, owners of a magical power. Instead they were people able to enter into a state of grace, and were able to act as a conduit or instrument of a greater power. I THINK that likely qualifications would be being virtuous and selfless, which Theoden is being.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 5 2016, 11:46am
Post #11 of 32
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(except, of course for the poem "Oliphaunt", which is indisputably fact.)
You are indeed brilliant.
I'm staying on the side of Théoden 'truly' accomplishing these wonderful feats! In Middle Earth we accept Valar, Maia, Wizards and Elves performing incredible actions. We accept Numenoreans living over two hundred years, and foreseeing events. Why do we balk at Théoden's amazing heroism? I think his willingness to sacrifice himself made him the recipient of special grace.
I love that all of Tolkien's story, in fact, is shrouded in this sort of ambiguity, leaving it up to the reader to decide where fact is stranger than fiction.
I love that here at TORN we accept LOTR as fact!
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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 5 2016, 11:53am
Post #12 of 32
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'Ka mate, ka mate, ka ora, ka ora!'
That's what I was looking for, thanks.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
May 5 2016, 6:57pm
Post #13 of 32
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Now, this has been the criticism by some people of Tolkien's works. Not everyone here will agree, no doubt, but to a casual reader looking at this chapter, could be forgiven for thinking so, perhaps. The Rohirrim host burst into song, the joy of battle is upon them, despite the fact that many will be killed, maimed for life or at least injured, to say nothing of their enemies. All justified by saying this is honourable.
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Meneldor
Valinor
May 5 2016, 9:01pm
Post #14 of 32
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One of the things I admire about JRRT's writing is his balanced view of war.
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There is a certain glamour in warfare: the excitement, the danger, the patriotism, the comeradery, the glory. JRRT was there and he knows that's true. And he knows better than most that occasionally the cost of avoiding war is even worse than warfare itself. At the same time, he has also witnessed the ugliness, the pain, the loss, the cost. Sam's glimpse of the dead enemy soldier is a reminder that war needs to be the last resort, chosen only when all the alternatives are even more costly. The professor manages much better than most writers to remind us of that cost while still giving us a ripping good yarn with fantastic war stories.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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enanito
Rohan
May 5 2016, 9:12pm
Post #15 of 32
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I think we all likely bring our own pre-existing attitudes especially into this discussion. I believe Eldarion most recently revisited this recurring theme of the black-and-whiteness of much evil in Tolkien's works, albeit specifically referring to issues we as modern readers have in justifying the war between the orcs and dwarves:
The big underlying question
And I'm not sure Tolkien can be placed firmly into either Gandalf's camp (pitying the poor slaves of Sauron), or the camp of those that see these many evil creatures as irredeemable.
That said, I happen to believe that this particular occurrence of bursting into song at the joy of battle is inextricably tied to the turning of the tides. As Theoden receives strength beyond his own (tall, proud, and even god-like), I believe the rest of the Rohirrim are likewise lifted up to an elevated state by the mystical power that is somehow lifting the darkness of Sauron. And since they are a warrior people, they use their fair and terrible voices to express the inner joy filling their hearts.
Although we didn't hear about them singing haikus while slaughtering the orcs carrying M&P, it's quite possible they are like real-life armies that (as has been pointed out) are said to have sung while fighting. I just think this was a special case.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 5 2016, 11:04pm
Post #16 of 32
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It seems the consensus that the passage:
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At that sound the bent shape of the king sprang suddenly erect. Tall and proud he seemed again; and rising in his stirrups he cried in a loud voice, more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before" is hyperbole; overstatement; poetic license; exaggeration; or a super-human feat.
It seems logical to me that someone somewhere at sometime in Middle-earth had to cry ”. . . in a loud voice, more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before"
Why should we NOT give this achievement to Theoden?
*back to The Lurk*
"I never said most of the things I said."
- Yogi & Me
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Al Carondas
Lorien
May 6 2016, 1:06am
Post #17 of 32
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I don't want to nitpick, but there was one sentence in this chapter that I stumbled over (i.e.: it just sounded strange), and I'm hoping someone can help clarify for me. It could just be an editorial oversight (in which case I'm sorry for even bringing it up), but it could very well be some point of grammar of which I am ignorant - in which case I'd welcome instruction.
Tolkien writes:
The light was more dim than ever as they drew nearer to the beleaguered city,
My question is: why 'more dim' instead of 'dimmer'? Any ideas?
"Good Morning!"
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squire
Half-elven
May 6 2016, 1:41am
Post #18 of 32
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I'm guessing he wanted to break up the monotony of the sentence, which has three other uses of the -er suffix as it is.
Oddly enough, I found a site that says that, when 'dim' is used as an adverb (e.g., "the afternoon grew dim"), 'more dim' is the correct comparative form. Funny thing, though: Tolkien uses 'more dim' with the verb 'was', which takes an adjective, eliminating the adverb explanation!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
May 6 2016, 1:41pm
Post #19 of 32
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I suppose this is the first charge
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Later on, as we will see, they don't continue singing.
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Meneldor
Valinor
May 6 2016, 3:12pm
Post #20 of 32
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The local newspaper has a 100 years ago this week feature.
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This week included an excerpt from the writings of a German soldier in the trenches, and seems applicable here:
Morning comes. The notes of a German song are wafted on the still air. It is a song of the Fatherland and all join in the chorus. It is then that we forget all our doubts and fears. We are ready to go down to the gates of death unafraid. The bullets begin to whistle. The soul is remarkably calm. Though comrades are falling on all sides, we never for a moment think of being hit by a bullet.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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enanito
Rohan
May 6 2016, 8:07pm
Post #21 of 32
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I am inclined to believe that this is hyperbole, just because it seems in Tolkien's M.E., the greatness of the end of the Third Age always pales in comparison to what came before. I'm not sure Aragorn could be considered greater than Isildur, or Hurin for that matter.
That said, why not Theoden, at this moment in time? If there was a passage in other text about a previous mortal (i.e. man) who had cried loud and clear, then it might be more definitively a "No". But if all we're going on is supposition that a king of the horse-people surely couldn't be the greatest ever, then that's a bit elitist!
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enanito
Rohan
May 6 2016, 8:16pm
Post #22 of 32
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Comparing "freed" Theoden with "captive" Denethor
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I'd just use a bit of caution in comparing the current states of Theoden and Denethor. It seems to me that if we were to compare the Theoden of a year previous, still under the sway of Saruman, we might find many more similarities in their outlook and behaviors.
If Denethor had accepted the entreaties of Gandalf to free himself from the invisible yoke of Sauron, I could envision him having become valiant in similar ways to what we see from Theoden. That's part of the steward's tragedy, that he finds himself unwilling/unable (that's another whole discussion!) to extract himself from the tentacles of Sauron's grasp.
So yeah Theoden is fighting because it's the right thing to do. But just a month before, he would have likely only fought for Rohan's survival, and judging it unable to be won, wouldn't see any more reason to fight. Which is how we see Denethor now.
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Al Carondas
Lorien
May 7 2016, 3:35am
Post #23 of 32
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You raise an excellent point, Hamfast. Some of Tolkien's writing does seem almost on the point of glorifying war. I have at times been bothered by that same thought. But I think that when one considers his book as a whole, one can see that this just isn't true.
I believe that Tolkien has aimed to present an accurate picture of the Rohirrim rather than glorify them. The portrait he paints is that of a people proud, brave, and noble, who are also frighteningly ferocious when roused. But what the reader makes of this mix of nobler virtues and baser instincts is left to each reader to decide. This is simply who the Rohirrim were. I very much believe that it is Tolkien's intention, in these powerfully worded passages, to convey the Riders' own sense of honor and glory to the reader. I think he does a good job as well of conveying other aspects of the Rohirrim and their values. I get a strong sense of hopelessness and fatalism as well. As I noted before, I get the sense that these cats are crazy - fey.
Yet, I don't believe that Tolkien ever intended to hold up the Rohirrim as the shining exemplar for mankind. Not at all. Tolkien soon will explicitly detail the cost of Rohan's glorious charge, thus providing a thoughtful reader with both sides of the story. One is then free to make one's own judgment of the Ride of the Rohirrim. Does the glory of the bravery outweigh the tragedy of the bloodshed? I don't think Tolkien forces any view upon us.
Yet, we must also keep in mind that the war that is being fought is a war that has been forced upon the people of Middle-earth. And unlike most wars in our world, this one is being fought against a purely evil enemy. It is almost like a war of mankind versus the devil himself. Even the human soldiers that Sauron uses are described as being enslaved or duped into his service. There is rarely (if ever) this kind of unambiguous, indisputable evil to be resisted in the real world. If the Rohirrim have treated such evil savagely then they surely have good justification.
But even more importantly, we must keep in mind that the battles that we see in the book are not the most decisive events of the War. The most decisive event, of course, is the destruction of the Ring. Without that, the glory of Rohan's charge would have been for naught. Thus, the focal point for Tolkien's story is the refusal of Power, not the exercise of it. The central heroes are a pair of Hobbits, whose battle is against temptation and demoralization. If Tolkien's story presents anyone as the shining exemplars for which mankind should strive, then I would say that it is the peace-loving, humble, "un-glorious" inhabitants of the Shire.
And finally, when one considers the tale in its totality, there is far more to it than just a war story. I think that you are right that one can easily lose sight of this when one is in the midst of the great battle scenes. But Lord of the Rings is also very much an adventure story. And throughout that story, I would say that on the whole Tolkien puts forth far more effort glorifying nature, humility, and the bonds of friendship and love than he does in glorifying war.
"Good Morning!"
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
May 7 2016, 7:15pm
Post #24 of 32
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History became legend, legend became myth...
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Perhaps the hyperbole of 'poetic license' is a useful method to help ensure that important thing are never forgotten?
After all once the kingdom of Gondor is settled and a new generation comes up, maybe they will forget the terror of orcs and Sauron and might think, 'I could do what Theoden did. It doesn't sound like it was that hard.' So a way to preserve respect for the achievements of the past and keep heroes larger than life and honoured?
Sing a song of long lament
The days be past, the years are spent
The flames of fire, on funeral pyre
The warrior's soul it's wing'd way hath sent
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
May 7 2016, 7:20pm
Post #25 of 32
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I agree it would be disturbing...
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Imagine you are an orc in a battle and are keyed up, tense, and deadly serious. Then an enemy comes up and he's singing as he charges. Well if he has time to sing, he must not be worried, you think. He must be pretty confident. How good is this guy? Can I beat him?
Now imagine an entire cavalry force doing it.
I'm scared, these guys are just crazy, or maybe crazy deadly and highly skilled! They like doing this. That's our job. Orcs are supposed to be masters of destruction and carnage.
Fear turned back on the orcs. With their own weapons of terror worsted.
Sing a song of long lament
The days be past, the years are spent
The flames of fire, on funeral pyre
The warrior's soul it's wing'd way hath sent
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