|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
StingingFly
Lorien
Apr 30 2016, 1:28pm
Post #1 of 106
(2111 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Kili/Fili...Deaths
|
Can't Post
|
|
While I appreciate the fact that their deaths was 'on screen' instead of just mentioned (as in the book), the manner of both of their deaths was neither valiant, nor heroic.
Both were used as props by Orcs emotionally upset an enemy.
Both were held with one hand, like a puppet, and impaled.
Both squirmed like helplessly, doing little more than casting sad looks at their comrades in arms.
A single arm grab is an easy hold to escape. A basic self defense course would have saved them both.
|
|
|
AndHeHandedHimTheTobaccoJar
Bree
Apr 30 2016, 1:36pm
Post #2 of 106
(1953 views)
Shortcut
|
A potentially very strong and powerful emotional scene that highlighted the bond between Fíli, Kíli and Thorin ('they died defending him with shield and body') was butchered for the sake of an artificial, pretty crappy romance that wasn't even remotely close to anything in the book. Not to mention, like you said, it would've been much better, and cooler, to see them go down fighting like heroes. A death scene like Boromir's is what I expected for Fíli and Kíli, but instead we got two helpless little dwarvish princelings dying at the hands of their enemies for the purpose of 'dramatic tension' and 'romance'. Ugh.
|
|
|
Smaug the iron
Gondor
Apr 30 2016, 2:04pm
Post #3 of 106
(1948 views)
Shortcut
|
I think Fili's death was really emotional ( definitely better then his book death) and you can definitely see that he did fight Azog and the orcs before getting captured and he used his last moment to try to save Thorin, Bilbo, Kili and Dwalin by leling them to run and save themselves. Fili's death in the film has more emotion then the book had.
Kili's death was okay, it was not the best death scene but okay and it was emotional ( again more then in the book).
So Fili and Kili have definitely better death scene in the film then in the book.
|
|
|
wizzardly
Rohan
Apr 30 2016, 2:49pm
Post #4 of 106
(1938 views)
Shortcut
|
Their movie deaths were pure and utter cheese. If Tolkien had written it like that, I'm sure nobody would be talking about him today. PJ has officially, as they say, jumped the shark with this trilogy.
|
|
|
StingingFly
Lorien
Apr 30 2016, 3:06pm
Post #5 of 106
(1932 views)
Shortcut
|
...what is truly sad about their deaths is what might have been. Their deaths were written, as mentioned above, to be like Boromir's.
I did enjoy the characters that PJ and co. brought to life on screen. They deserved a more fitting ending.
The movie could have still featured a Thorin-Azog showdown, but then after Thorin triumphs and staggers away he is beset by another wave of Orcs. Kili and Fili rally to their kinsman and defend him to the death. I don't know.
|
|
|
wizzardly
Rohan
Apr 30 2016, 3:38pm
Post #6 of 106
(1920 views)
Shortcut
|
This entire trilogy is an unfortunate "What Might Have Been". I know PJ has it in him to do far better than this, which makes it even more depressing. He had great actors, amazing artists and craftsman, and a phenomenal fx studio at his disposal, and THIS is what we got. Personally I feel the blame all falls on the scriptwriters...and obviously the direction.
|
|
|
MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Apr 30 2016, 4:54pm
Post #7 of 106
(1907 views)
Shortcut
|
|
That's because they weren't major characters in the book
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Despite book Fili and Kili having about a dozen lines between them, their death scene was still effective because it highlights their devotion and bond with Thorin. If the movie had kept their death as in the book, it could have been even more powerful because they are more fleshed out in the films.
|
|
|
LSF
Gondor
Apr 30 2016, 5:51pm
Post #8 of 106
(1892 views)
Shortcut
|
I find a lot more drama and emotion in separating them and giving them their own deaths, their own emotions and such, way more interesting than anything I can visualize from the book description. (Then again, that's pretty much my opinion of any of the book to movie changes). Not that filming it the way the book describes can't be good, but this is much more interesting for me.
I don't see how neither is heroic. Fili tries to get the others to run and live another day. Kili tries to save someone he cares about.
I suppose in theory a one-armed grabbed is easy to escape, but... how about when you've been constant fighting for a long time and are now against opponents who are completely fresh, way more skilled than everyone you've been fighting, and literally twice your size?
(This post was edited by LSF on Apr 30 2016, 5:57pm)
|
|
|
Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 30 2016, 5:53pm
Post #9 of 106
(1894 views)
Shortcut
|
One one hand I could see them dramatising is more by ostensibly 'killing' them off, then having them show up last minute to help an almost beaten Thorin best Azog and both dying as the three take Azog down. The danger I see here is that three their deaths would be packed close together and none of them getting much individual attention.
On the other hand, I do see this as a bit more realistic and true to life. Life isn't fair and just as often the young die before the old. It's poignant because we expect them to survive and carry on the kingly line, but the opposite happens.
Sing a song of long lament
The days be past, the years are spent
The flames of fire, on funeral pyre
The warrior's soul it's wing'd way hath sent
|
|
|
Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell
Apr 30 2016, 6:01pm
Post #10 of 106
(1886 views)
Shortcut
|
There's so many things wrong with it, I'll let others elaborate better than I can.
But I will say it was the most disappointing part of the movie for me. Their deaths were pathetic; it was like they both gave up.
Justice for Fili
|
|
|
Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 30 2016, 6:45pm
Post #11 of 106
(1879 views)
Shortcut
|
I agree and disagree at the same time. While I think Fili's death was well-done, I would have liked to see him take out a few Orcs before being overwhelmed. To me it doesn't matter whether he died by being impaled while trying to protect his wounded Uncle, or died telling his Uncle to run (not fall for the baiting), knowing he was about to be killed. It doesn't matter because the end result is the same - he died trying to save his Uncle. His death was quick and brutal, and would have been quick and brutal if he'd jumped in front of Thorin only to get run through. Btw, Fili was clearly injured, there was blood on his face & his ear was messed up. And he was being dangled off the tower, e.g. no single arm grab to escape from.
But Kili, well, I think it started out good - he was charging up the stairs to avenge his brother, well that's not only a normal reaction but also shows a brotherly bond. But then Tauriel got involved, and she was not able to save Kili - yeah, that could have been better. But in Kili's defense, you might have noticed Bolg was twice his size? And again, Kili was stunned by a punch in the face and then bent over backwards, which locked up his back & pretty well pinned him down - again, no single arm grab to break free of. Just sayin'.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
|
|
|
Smaug the iron
Gondor
Apr 30 2016, 7:02pm
Post #12 of 106
(1870 views)
Shortcut
|
If Tolkien had written it like that, I'm sure nobody would be talking about him today But PJ did it and everyone still talks about him ( including you). 
PJ has officially, as they say, jumped the shark with this trilogy No he hasn't, PJ's the hobbit trilogy is a great trilogy ( better then the book in some places ( including the death scenes))
|
|
|
Smaug the iron
Gondor
Apr 30 2016, 7:10pm
Post #13 of 106
(1861 views)
Shortcut
|
Despite book Fili and Kili having about a dozen lines between them, their death scene was still effective because it highlights their devotion and bond with Thorin. It would have helped if anyone of the Company or anyone else was sad that they are dead, but no one in the book are sad that they are dead. In the film we see everyone feel sorry fore them at the funeral ( which Fili and Kili never got a funeral in the book).
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 30 2016, 8:23pm
Post #15 of 106
(1837 views)
Shortcut
|
It would have helped if anyone of the Company or anyone else was sad that they are dead, but no one in the book are sad that they are dead.
That is not really a fair statement. Certainly their deaths are relayed to Bilbo as sad news. It is a shame that Tolkien makes no reference to the brothers being laid to rest beside their uncle, but the truth is that they were so underdeveloped and unmemorable as characters (in the book) that Tolkien could not even later keep straight which one of them was older.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 30 2016, 8:25pm)
|
|
|
StingingFly
Lorien
Apr 30 2016, 8:27pm
Post #16 of 106
(1834 views)
Shortcut
|
...Fili is lifted initially, but is standing on both feet being held with a single hand before being impaled. Here we have Azog standing behind him, boasting about how he is going to kill him, his brother, and his uncle...and Fili doesn't offer a last ditch attempt at resistance. Doesn't he carry a half dozen secret weapons? Both of his hands were free and Azog was distracted. Pull out a dagger, spin around and stab that Orc!
...Kili was briefly stunned by a punch, but was then held for an extended period by a single hand grab. His resistance is so non existent, that Bolg doesn't even need to pay attention to him, he focuses all of his energy on taunting Tauriel.
...When considering the size differential I am reminded of the difficulty in picking up a child having a tantrum. Any parent can attest that this is a two handed (and sometimes two parent) job. The heirs of Durin should have at least put up that much of a fight.
(This post was edited by StingingFly on Apr 30 2016, 8:31pm)
|
|
|
Smaug the iron
Gondor
Apr 30 2016, 8:42pm
Post #17 of 106
(1822 views)
Shortcut
|
Doesn't he carry a half dozen secret weapons? Both of his hands were free and Azog was distracted. Pull out a dagger, spin around and stab that Orc! Fili only had is sword, it was in AUJ and DOS ( until they are captured be the elves) he has secret weapons but during TBOFA he only has his sword so he could not do that.
|
|
|
wizzardly
Rohan
Apr 30 2016, 8:44pm
Post #18 of 106
(1825 views)
Shortcut
|
I do talk about it....but only because I love Tolkien's writing, otherwise, I probably wouldn't even give it a second thought.
|
|
|
wizzardly
Rohan
Apr 30 2016, 8:48pm
Post #19 of 106
(1821 views)
Shortcut
|
But after his King Kong remake and now this, he's going to have pull off something big in order to get back to where he was after doing LotR.
|
|
|
LSF
Gondor
Apr 30 2016, 8:52pm
Post #20 of 106
(1819 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Can we make this an experiment?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The subject spends at least an hour fighting off waves of enemies (or a physical activity that is equally physically and mentally draining), then they run into a guy like MMA fighter/WWE wrestler Brock Lesnar, who is completely fresh with full energy, who beats them up for a good 30 seconds. After all that, how well does the subject fight back when Lesnar pins them down or holds them up? My prediction is not very effectively
The physicality of the two death scenes seem pretty legit to me.
|
|
|
Smaug the iron
Gondor
Apr 30 2016, 8:54pm
Post #21 of 106
(1817 views)
Shortcut
|
But after his King Kong remake and now this, he's going to have pull off something big in order to get back to where he was after doing LotR. He is still as great as he was during the LOTR, The Hobbit trilogy is just as great as the Lord of the Rings, so he is just as great as he was before.
|
|
|
wizzardly
Rohan
Apr 30 2016, 9:56pm
Post #22 of 106
(1791 views)
Shortcut
|
I just mean that the overall audience enthusiasm that was there during the LotR years just isn't there anymore. Outside of these forums, PJ's Hobbit is generally regarded as a bit of a disappointment.
|
|
|
Omnigeek
Lorien
Apr 30 2016, 10:05pm
Post #23 of 106
(1783 views)
Shortcut
|
Not even close. Good movies, sure. Great? Obviously that's debatable because we DO debate it here.
|
|
|
Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 30 2016, 10:13pm
Post #24 of 106
(1778 views)
Shortcut
|
|
people die because of bad choices
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
or emotional reactions. That is true, Thorin should not have sent them over in the first place (not just saying this because I hated that the nephews died). Some would argue that Thorin should have known better; an experienced warrior didn't suspect it was a trap? Well, I don't know if I agree with that or not, but it's a thought. On the other hand, Fili deliberately sent Kili away from what he must have known was a dangerous situation. Was that a bad choice? True, it didn't work out well for Fili, but I think it was a very noble thing to do, to try and protect his younger brother. As for Kili, well I've argued that his was a very common battlefield reaction - there are tons of reports of such things happening, even in Iraq. It also reminds me of a scene from "Full Metal Jacket," toward the end where soldiers are debating what to do while one of their comrades is being shot repeatedly, screaming out in pain. I guess they were trying to NOT make an emotional choice, but that was a hard scene to watch.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
|
|
|
Smaug the iron
Gondor
Apr 30 2016, 10:13pm
Post #25 of 106
(1777 views)
Shortcut
|
In my opinion The Hobbit trilogy is just as great as the Lord of the Rings trilogy. The acting, the sets, the music, the CGI are great, they are both close to the book in many ways and are not close in many ways.
|
|
|
|
|
1
