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Omnigeek
Lorien
Apr 27 2016, 3:27am
Post #151 of 275
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We'll have to agree to disagree
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I like PJ as a filmmaker but I"m sorry, much of BoFA was pathetic tripe IMO, Fili and Kill's death scenes not the least. It was cheap predictable theater on the level of Star Wars Episode 1 and in fact, I think the depiction of their deaths cheapened the events compared to them falling valiantly defending Thorin as Tolkien wrote.
Be that as it may, your very obsession with the dwarves and how much their story should be expanded in the movies demonstrates the movies should have been titled "The Lord of the Rings Part Zero: The Quest for Erebor" or perhaps more simply as "Thorin and Company" but it wasn't "The Hobbit". Of course, we come at it from different perspectives. I grew up reading the book repeatedly and cherished the story that was told where you seem to have come to the book late, possibly even after viewing the movies. For me, it wasn't a "fairy tale", it was a story of character, of growth, of learning the values of life. Even Fili's and Kili's deaths in the book, inadequate as you deem it, convey simply and powerfully the value Dwarves place on family.
PJ did try to portray much of this in the movies but he added and changed much and in those additions and changes, he told a prelude to the War of the Ring but lost much of the spirit of the book (at least, many of us believe he did).
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Sarahbor
Lorien
Apr 27 2016, 3:39am
Post #152 of 275
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"your very obsession with the dwarves and how much their story should be expanded in the movies demonstrates the movies should have been titled "The Lord of the Rings Part Zero: The Quest for Erebor" or perhaps more simply as "Thorin and Company" "
Huh? I never said a thing about their stories being expanded. In fact I hated how Kili's was expanded re the romance (and would've vastly preferred that he not died to defend Tauriel). Asking that we see their deaths on screen and not just hear about them hardly counts as "expanded roles" (and I would've preferred they died defending Thorin; all I'm saying is that I'd prefer to SEE them die). And no, I don't deem Tolkien's writing of their deaths inadequate; all I'm saying is that film is a different medium than the written word, and IMO it works better on film to see their final moments. I read the book long before the movies came out, though I was very young at the time and remembered very little by the time I saw the films. You're making unfair assumptions by saying I do not appreciate what Tolkien wrote just because I disagree with you and think words don't translate perfectly onto screen (the same is the case for ANY book, not just Tolkien).
Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 27 2016, 4:18am
Post #153 of 275
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I would never claim otherwise. This entire thread is by its very nature comprises people explaining their opinions on how true The Hobbit movies are to the spirit of the source text.
Most characters in any story are mortal. We know they are probably going to die at some point after the story ends. I wonder why most of us demand to see the deaths of those characters who happen to die while the story is underway, but don't care about seeing the rest of them die.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 27 2016, 4:18am
Post #154 of 275
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It would be dumb for a movie to NOT show the deaths of any main or prominently supporting characters
Spoiler follows.
While this 2007 production by the Coen brothers is not my favorite film of theirs, it has with many admirable things in it, and it found enough fans in the movie industry to win Best Picture at the Oscars that year. Also the critics adored it.
It's a thriller in which the main character dies offscreen. We only see his body, briefly, after the fact.
But at least one person agrees with you!
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Sarahbor
Lorien
Apr 27 2016, 5:06am
Post #155 of 275
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their deaths were actually written, whereas the others' aren't part of the story?
Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 27 2016, 5:14am
Post #156 of 275
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If we're talking about the source text of a film adaptation, one major theme for about half the participants in this discussion is that a film can be faithful to its source without including lots that was written in the original.
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Apr 27 2016, 5:26am
Post #157 of 275
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I don't understand the attittude that one doesn't feel the loss when reading Fili and Kili fell defending Thorin for he was their mother's brother. I felt that sentence more than seeing Fili being taken from behind because he was stupid about entering the tunnels or Kili dying because he was enraged by Fili's death. The Rankin-Bass conveyed the loss with just a few sentences when Bilbo wakes up, only to catch Bombur dying at his feet (and yes, R-B annoyed me with their deviation as well) and Gandalf saying sadly, "Bombur gone too." Because Fili and Kili death in the book have no emotion to it at all, if we had a scene in which Gandalf told Bilbo that Fili and Kili are dead and we are seeing Bilbo's reaction to the news then it could be an emotional scene in the book but now as it is it feels more like something out of a history book then a novel. Just lock at Thorin's death in the book, that was a great scene plus you really feel sorry for Thorin and Bilbo.
How would you feel if Thorin's death was also of screen in the book, and no one mourns him at all? Or if it was Boramir's or Theoden's death scene was told to you later?
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dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 27 2016, 7:59am
Post #158 of 275
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Well, I come from the same perspective as you....
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...having first read the book as a child and re-reading many times thereafter. And I loved and still do love it, though I admit there was a time when I found some of the childlike elements of the narration too childish. The depth and scope of Lord of the Rings had much more immediate appeal then, and what held me to The Hobbit was fondness for a childhood friend, and for the story from which the later story came.
I agree - I've already agreed several pages ago - that Peter Jackson's Hobbit films are not faithful to the spirit of the book. But as a book lover I still say that for me they are faithful to the spirit of the story - Bilbo's story. The 'little fellow in a wide world'. And I'm saying it again now just as a reminder that neither side in this debate should be claiming superiority on the grounds of their long readership. You've loved the book from childhood and dismiss Battle of the Five Armies as 'pathetic tripe'. I've loved the book from childhood and love the film also because for me, and despite its many deviations from the book, the heart of the story shines through.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Sarahbor
Lorien
Apr 27 2016, 9:50am
Post #159 of 275
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The deaths of other mortal characters are not part of the story told in The Hobbit and occur much later, and as such there is no reason to see them on screen. It makes no sense to add a "by the way, x years later, all these characters died too, which is obvious given that they're mortal anyway" postscript. They are not relevant to the story, whereas Fili's and Kili's are part of the tragedy of greed, i.e. brought about by a needless war born of avarice, which is a central theme of the book. This is a big apples-to-oranges comparison.
Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 27 2016, 1:35pm
Post #160 of 275
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....the spirit of LOTR is "The End of the Third Age". However, one could cut Gondor, Rohan, Orthanc, Fangorn, the Paths of the Dead, the Pelennor, the Morannon, etc. to make it totally Frodo-centric and the spirit becomes "This is a story of how a Baggins had an adventure etc."
Jackson's Hobbit trilogy does the exact reverse. With the addition of non-Bilbo events like The White Council, Dol Guldur, the pursuit by Azog and Bolg, the rebellion of Tauriel and Legolas, etc. the spirit becomes "The Beginning of the War of the Ring."
That's not necessarily a bad thing, but the spirit is definitely no longer "This is a story of how a Baggins had an adventure".
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“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
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Misty Mountain Hop
Rivendell
Apr 27 2016, 2:21pm
Post #161 of 275
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I felt that it went back and forth between serious and light-hearted
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I remember watching Transformers with my parents and the scene where the transformers run around the house and try to hide from his parents, my dad just laughed and said "This movie doesn't know whether to be serious or not."
I feel the same way about The Hobbit Trilogy.
Had all three movies kept a lighter spirit like the first, with jokes and humor and fun adventure, it would have worked. On the other hand, had it always kept the darkness of the 2nd and 3rd, much like LOTR, it could have also worked.
Unfortunately, Peter kept jumping back and forth between serious and joking. I really like DOS and BOFTA but AUJ just was up in the air for me.
"Only, you've never done a hard day's work." - Merry
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Apr 27 2016, 3:00pm
Post #162 of 275
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Had all three movies kept a lighter spirit like the first, with jokes and humor and fun adventure, it would have worked. On the other hand, had it always kept the darkness of the 2nd and 3rd, much like LOTR, it could have also worked.
Unfortunately, Peter kept jumping back and forth between serious and joking. I really like DOS and BOFTA but AUJ just was up in the air for me.
I had the same thought. Instead of picking a way and going with it, he tried too hard to maintain the whimsicality in some places and in others he attempted to make it even darker than the source materiel. It made the tone uneven throughout the series. And I say that as someone who did enjoy the movies for the most part, even though they weren't perfect by any stretch.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 27 2016, 4:09pm
Post #163 of 275
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But personally didn't see it as uneven
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At least for me - IMO through DOS the "whimsicality" is perfectly appropriate - charming even, and moves very nicely into a darker tone. Considering the source material, IMO it was amazingly well done.
IMO as has been discussed before, it's for me it's more of a concept of OVERLOAD of certain elements in BOFA, which isn't quite the same thing as saying some whimsy/humor shouldn't have been in the Hobbit at all (and the same kind of thing shows up in LOTR - brief moments of humor).
For instance in the EE, IMO Gandalf's staff mis-firing I thought was hilarious. IMO - and while I loved Ryan Gage's Alfrid - for me that's where things get jarring - because there are brutal battles going on, and instead of a brief, bittersweet moment of levity - say the rumored scene of Thranduil and Gloin on the battlefield, where supposedly Thranduil tells Gloin to keep up (I think that's what the scene was supposed to be) there's the heavy, and ultimately IMO unfunny, overdose of Alfrid.
Of course, BOFA's shortness and tight editing doesn't help with that kind of thing. I was never a fan of Legolas' LOTR shield-slide, but it's BRIEF. W. the time Alfrid gets, he ends up being more of a main character than most of the dwarves in BOFA, so there's time watching the film for me to get annoyed.
Re being darker than the source material - at the last, IMO the source material is pretty dark... if I really start thinking about it, and I think PJ handled certain elements w. merciful sensitivity.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Apr 27 2016, 4:29pm
Post #165 of 275
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I didn't know recall that, even though I saw the film back in the day (how could that possibly be 20 years ago!).
Good film, particularly if you like food. 
(Such a joy to see you posting so much more around here!)
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 27 2016, 4:36pm
Post #166 of 275
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Empty space in books and films....
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Well that might have been what Tolkien was going for, but I didn't see it that way at all. Like I said, to me it was just "oh yeah, they died, too." Didn't seem like there was ANY attempt to evoke a Norse saga. You're not the first person to tell me that, so either I'm just oblivious or a reader needs a background in Norse sagas (which I don't have) to pick up on that.
You're not alone. I had to learn via TORn of Tolkien's Norse influences - and others - and through the Appendices. So while it may well be that the Norse themes of a "Viking fighting mentality" and the loyalty of the dwarves to the their kings and the concept of sister sons and heirs thread their way through the Hobbit, for me, what Tolkien did in the book was more akin to the more "rolling" pace of a fairy tale, where details are left out - e.g. a child's tale.
That's not the same thing IMO as using the sparing prose of a Hemingway, geared to an adult audience. When that's done, the whole tone and word choice is different from the beginning of the story. As is the tone of a Hitchcock film - for instance at the end of "The Birds" the characters just drive away, and there's never a real reason given for what went on.
The converse of using "empty space" in films and books is the notorious "fade to black" IMO cop-out or IMO when the author/filmmaker hits a wall and can't fill the space, or otherwise misjudges, I think. Although all of this is somewhat subjective.
There's also cultural and historical differences in the way folks constructed their writings - not sure modern writers (not being an expert) tend to have entire lists of names as part of a narrative, for example.
But IMO the brevity, for instance, of Fili's end to myself and many didn't FEEL necessarily as tho it were making a statement - rather, it felt as tho the character were being shorted to a fair number of folks.
How much worse that would have been, if there was just some "empty space" scene where, say, we see Fili's sword w. some blood on it in the snow, for a few seconds, and that's about it. Or we see Fili backing up in the tunnel and THAT's it.
And I think wisely PJ stepped in and gave Bilbo more to do, in BOFA, vs. the book.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 27 2016, 4:57pm
Post #167 of 275
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"Bite your teeth into the @#$ of life!"
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He was Pascal, the successful restaurateur down the street, who convinced Primo and Secondo to host the titular event.
Minnie Driver and Isabella Rossellini also had prominent roles.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 27 2016, 4:59pm
Post #168 of 275
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Maybe it's just a Kiwi thing and we wouldn't understand.
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Or not.
At the risk of stereotyping, I've noticed some cultures seem to have no problem with their movies and TV episodes swinging from silly slapstick to dark tragedy and back again. Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, and Taiwan immediately come to mind.
******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 27 2016, 5:01pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 27 2016, 5:10pm
Post #169 of 275
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Yet that's what Tolkien did in LOTR.
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Even though the deaths (or departures from the mortal realm) of Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Merry, Pippin, and Sam all happened long after the story proper was over, Tolkien still opted to relate that information. You'll occasionally encounter something similar at the end of movies, like Z (1969), American Graffiti (1973), and Stand by Me (1986). So it's not unheard of. In fact, in The Hobbit, Tolkien essentially does it again when on the last page, he has Balin tell Bilbo about the death of the Master of Lake-town.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 27 2016, 5:36pm
Post #170 of 275
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I think that was directed to me
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I suppose one could call me "obsessed" with the dwarves - one of them at least! 
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Sarahbor
Lorien
Apr 27 2016, 5:37pm
Post #171 of 275
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He tells us this in the Appendices and other subsequent material, not in the actual story, because it has no bearing on the actual story. The Master's death also happened long after the actual story, and since there's no way for Bilbo to know about it having not been there, it makes sense to have a character recount it later. It also has some bearing on the story because it reinforces the theme of destructive greed. There's no need to tell us after the film that Bard eventually dies of old age. It's irrelevant to the story being told. Likewise, there is no need to add a postscript to the LOTR films saying that eventually Aragorn and the hobbits grew old and died as well. The deaths in battle of main characters as told in the story are a completely different situation than telling us about the natural deaths of mortal characters many years later.
Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/
(This post was edited by Sarahbor on Apr 27 2016, 5:45pm)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 27 2016, 5:42pm
Post #172 of 275
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I don't expect either of us to change our minds, that was never the goal, only to maybe gain a better understanding of where people on "the other side" are coming from. I did read "The Hobbit" before the movies came out, probably in my 20's when I first read LoTR, and remembered if much better than I remembered LoTR when those movies came out. We also had the Rankin-Bass cartoon; my daughters watched it when they were growing up. Well, there you are. I will agree with you that parts of BOFA could have been done better, but never would I call it "cheap predictable theater" - then again, I actually liked Episode I, so maybe we really are just far apart in taste and opinion.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 27 2016, 7:00pm
Post #173 of 275
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I suppose one could call me "obsessed" with the dwarves - one of them at least!
I recall having a lively discussion on TORn with someone over the fact that I had described Bilbo and Thorin as the "twin suns" of the Hobbit movie - which kind of echoes, I guess, Martin Freeman's statements that the characters "yo-yo to and from" each other.
As I recall the other person argued that was an inherent issue, in that there wasn't supposed to be "twin suns" - that the true arc? of the Hobbit was supposed to be about the "everyman" Bilbo, first and last.
*Shrug*. That's a difficult one for me, in that long before the movies existed I liked Thorin, a lot. He was my book favorite. Bilbo would occasionally get on my nerves, as written. I certainly didn't appreciate what I thought was rather indifferent wording in the Appendices between Gandalf and Bilbo - something like "too bad about Thorin, tho we were kind of friends at the end so no big deal" *meh* . Or at least that's the way I took it.
Fast-forward years later, so, IMO, the films remain with Bilbo's arc, and if Thorin ended up being an *incandescent* and powerful character, and the dwarves elevated to beings we care for, I'd say that's worthy of cheering, for me. I certainly didn't expect it.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 27 2016, 7:02pm
Post #174 of 275
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although I didn't hate the movie as much as my husband did. I felt like that movie didn't really end, it just stopped, possibly because the writers ran out of ideas. But it did have one really good line:
"Are you going to kill me?"
"That depends - can you see me?"
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Apr 27 2016, 7:07pm
Post #175 of 275
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Fili and Kili aren't main characters
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As far as the book goes, they are only the fifth and sixth most featured Dwarves (and that's about where Fili is in the movie too). Thorin's death would be hugely disappointing offscreen, but for two guys who had about a dozen lines between them, it can work this way.
And Tolkien did this in LOTR, too. Halbarad and Hama, who each had about as much focus as Fili anf Kili, were killed offscreen. Tolkien was fond of that trope, apparently.
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LOL
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