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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 24 2016, 10:26am
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****LOTR Read through Book V.4 - The Siege of Gondor****
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Hello! Me back again in a last-minute substitution! Apologies from Mironiel who is unexpectedly unable to lead, and also from me if this starter shows some signs of haste. More than ever, feel free to post about the points I will doubtless have missed.
We’ve seen the Witch King, Aragorn, and last of all Theoden all set off for Minas Tirith with their respective armies. Now we cut to their destination.
I notice this chapter has a very different feel to the last siege we witnessed - Helm’s Deep. There we spent the chapter in the thick of the fighting. Here we are 2/3 through the chapter before “The Gate was shut”. The remainder of the chapter spends much of it’s time covering Denethor’s descent into madness and his decision to burn himself and Faramir alive. The battle outside is reported in impressionistic but vivid fragmentary reports. If Helm’s Deep was more straightforwardly about fighting a battle, this chapter seems to be more about despair and hope.
First though, we see the arrival of Faramir, and his news of Frodo. Gandalf worries about whether Frodo has been captured and Gandalf and Denethor argue about whose plan for the Ring is foolish. Denethor is horrible enough to Faramir that he will regret it bitterly later. Faramir sets off once again to lead an action to slow down the attack, and returns wounded, having lost a third of his men.
1)What do we learn from these conversations - e.g. about characters and their relationships with each other?
2) We’ve been discussing Eowyn a lot lately - perhaps it would be interesting to compare/contrast her with Faramir? let’s see - both are overshadowed by dashing older brothers. Both are entrusted with important duties by their father figures, but neither is given duties that suit who they feel they are (Eowyn a shieldmaiden, Faramir a prince from a more civilized time). Hey, if they met do you think they’d get on? 
The forces of Mordor close in. 3)The city seems to be attacked as much by fear and fire as by foes - though the attackers mill around and incendiaries distract the defenders, it’s the Nazgul the defenders can’t stand. Contrast with Helm’s Deep. Is this ‘merely’ a way of Tolkien allowing the siege to progress at a rapid pace - possibly too rapid for Theoden and Aragorn to arrive with relief? Or does it tell us something (e.g. about Sauron in contrast to Saruman)?
Realising that Denethor has gone mad, Pippin does what he can and sets off to get Gandalf. But the great gates are broken by Grond (possibly assisted by some magic) and Gandalf looks about to square up to the Witch King. 3) The Gandalf-WK battle doesn't happen - is that disappointing? Fitting? Should Tolkien have avoided bringing them into confrontation; should he have written a fight scene, or is it good the way it is? What would have happened had the fight not been interrupted?
The chapter ends spectacularly - dawn breaks (symbolically and literally demonstrating a break-down in Mordor’s plans) and then...
And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. In dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the north wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.
Wow!
So, what do you think about thechapter?
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 24 2016, 12:36pm
Post #2 of 145
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Nice battering ram - now try getting it up to the next gate (a quibble about how long the siege looks to take)
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To batter down the outer gate of Minas Tirith, the Witch King has required...
...a huge ram, great as a forest-tree a hundred feet in length, swinging on mighty chains. Long had it been forging in the dark smithies of Mordor, and its hideous head, founded of black steel, was shaped in the likeness of a ravening wolf; on it spells of ruin lay. Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it."
But Tolkien has gone to pains to describe Minas Tirith as a concentric fortification: there are several more gates to go, and they are not conveniently aligned:
"For the fashion of Minas Tirith was such that it was built on seven levels, each delved into the hill, and about each was set a wall, and in each was a gate. But the gates were not set in a line: the Great Gate in the City wall was at the east point of the circuit, but the next faced half south, and the third half north, and so to and fro upwards; so the paved way that climbed toward the citadel turned this way and that and then that across the face of the hill."
The Return of the King, Chapter 1: Minas Tirith
So it seems that Grond will have to be dragged uphill an eighth turn to reach the second gate, and that possibly a fair bit of demolition of the first level will be needed in order to allow it through the streets. Or the attackers have to pierce the outer wall and build a ramp up through the First level to the Second gate. Either process would take some time, you would think, before the attack on the Second gate could be ready. Then the process would have to be repeated on each consecutive gate. Each time, the remaining defenders can harass the attackers from behind the next wall.
It makes me think that it's all going to take a while. So why does Hirgon tell Theoden that he's "like to find only ruined walls in seven days from now" (Muster of Rohan)?
A quibble, but sometimes quibbles are fun.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven
Apr 24 2016, 5:08pm
Post #3 of 145
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And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. In dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the north wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last. I've been lurking during (and enjoying the heck out of) the discussion, but must chime in here to say that of all the---"wonderful" is only a shadow of the proper adjective---scenes in LotR, this one has to be my favorite. I've been reading these books for fifty years now, but this one moment still makes my heart swell and my eyes tear.  There's a reason LotR has been my favorite novel for the vast majority of my life.
Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing? Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing? Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing? They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow; The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow....
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 24 2016, 5:35pm
Post #4 of 145
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I dunno, Wiz, I think you're siding with Sauron here.
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You're showing just a little too much enthusiasm for taking down Minas Tirith rather than defending it. Need I remind you whose side you're supposed to be on?
More seriously, I think the whole point of the varied directions of the gates was for precisely that reason, wasn't it--to make it difficult to ram your way through them all? And let's say that possibly the streets are winding rather than straight and broad, so Grond couldn't even move on the streets, and Sauron would have to level buildings along the way just to get passage to the next gate, meanwhile facing attack from the circle above all the time. I think Minas Tirith could have lasted against a siege for months or more. After all, Minas Ithil held out 2 years. (Which never makes sense to me that the rest of Gondor, still intact, couldn't break that siege, but whatever.)
As for Hirgon: hyperbole. That's why you should shoot the messenger. OK, that's not fair, but the whole thing with beacons and Red Arrows mean you're supposed to whip up your allies into getting out of bed and coming to help you NOW, not later, so you have to increase the sense of urgency even if, as I suggest, Minas Tirith might have held out for months. But to think that through a little more, Sauron would have dug trenches all around the city for horses to fall into, so possibly Theoden could not have broken that siege and joined forces.
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sevilodorf
Tol Eressea
Apr 24 2016, 5:44pm
Post #5 of 145
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And exaggerating. It would take longer than seven days to reach the top level of the city, but to restore some of his credibility -- the city's spirit would have broken.
Plus he is trying to convince them to get a move on.... better than saying... For pity's sake, why the heck aren't you already moving and why the heck does it take so long, aren't you a blasted cavalry?
Gondor is a little short on diplomats.
Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua
(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 24 2016, 5:55pm
Post #6 of 145
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"Horns, horns, horns...Rohan had come at last."
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It's hard to pick a single favorite quote, but that would be a strong contender. It still moves me after multiple reads, and on first read, I was literally on the edge of my seat.
Minas Tirith vs Helm's Deep: nice comparison of the battle perspective. I definitely don't feel like I'm manning the walls in this chapter like I did in Rohan. I feel more like a chess player and less like a pawn. In some ways, Helm's Deep is more satisfying because I want to know what's happening on the front lines. Watching Denethor go crazy is frustrating. Watching Gandalf and Imrahil buttressing the defenders' morale is inspiring, but I wish there was a Gamling or Gimli at this battle, telling me from a single person's view what was going on, especially as Grond approached, and some archers were left to fire at its handlers, but others had fled. What's it like to be one of the few who stand their ground against such dread?
The severed heads: I found the severed heads catapulted into the city to be especially disturbing. (War crimes, anyone?) And so much of this chapter is about Sauron's morale-destroying tactics: the Nazgul flying overhead, the magic flames from stones and in trenches, the heads of men you used to know flung at your feet, the rumors that your prince is dead/dying and your Steward is crazy, and who is this Wizard to think he can tell us what to do? It makes me wonder if Tolkien thinks Sauron is a more sophisticated war-master than Saruman, who mainly wanted to blow up Helm's Deep and kill everyone, and fear was just part of seeing how big his army was. Sauron wants to destroy Gondor's soul, not just its capital. Is that because he hates it so much more? After all, Saruman had nothing personal against Theoden, he was just an obstacle, but Sauron has a long feud with the Dunedain.
Gandalf vs the Witch-King: I'm not sure I'm personally satisfied that we don't get an epic duel between these two. As a reader, I certainly want one by this point, and a weaker Gandalf faced off a weaker Nine Riders at Weathertop, so why not a rematch? It's amazing how Shadowfax alone of horses can withstand the Witch-king's fear--gotta love that horse! And Gandalf--what's going through his mind? Why is there no short speech like he gave to the Balrog in Moria, telling him he's a servant of the Secret Fire, etc? And doesn't Gandalf have the element of surprise on his side here, meaning: I don't think Sauron knows Gandalf died and was reincarnated as a stronger being after the Balrog fight, so won't the Witch-king think he's facing a weaker opponent than he really is?
I wonder how much Tolkien himself wanted this battle to play out, similar to Fingolfin dueling with Morgoth, or if he considered it just a dramatic building block in a long line of blocks, increasing the tension until we're squirming in our seats? And is Gandalf's mission still unchanged after his visit to Eru, that he must let others do the fighting against Sauron and his minions, and he's supposed to stay in the background? But if so, why is he the only one to block the gate? Not even Imrahil is there.
Or does Gandalf have the foresight to see (hazily) that all he has to do is stall the Witch-king at the gate, and *something* will happen that will turn the battle? That's about the best way I can rationalize it. But in my gut, I still want Gandalf to fight the Wi-Ki and turn him into roadkill.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 24 2016, 6:07pm
Post #7 of 145
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Oh, there you go shipping characters again
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2) We’ve been discussing Eowyn a lot lately - perhaps it would be interesting to compare/contrast her with Faramir? let’s see - both are overshadowed by dashing older brothers. Both are entrusted with important duties by their father figures, but neither is given duties that suit who they feel they are (Eowyn a shieldmaiden, Faramir a prince from a more civilized time). Hey, if they met do you think they’d get on? As if these two could *ever* fall in love when they're strangers and Eowyn wants that Ranger guy. Really, Wiz, where do you come up with these ideas?
But I like your comparison of the two, especially because I usually think of them as opposites: he's more educated and refined and civilized, he's more big-picture, and he's also more of a natural optimist. He's facing some pretty bad odds, but he doesn't get as morose as Eowyn does. Their father relationships are very different too: Faramir would never be good enough for Denethor, while Theoden seems very fond of Eowyn.
We never see Eowyn's relationship with her biological parents, but she's an orphan, and Faramir is semi-orphaned, so they have that parental loss in common. And big brothers who seem spoiled by comparison but whom they don't resent. Both of them are exceedingly brave. Here's a what-if: what if Boromir was in the place of Theoden in the battle ahead, with the Witch-king perched on his fallen form. Would Faramir have the courage to challenge him to a fight? (and forget the prophecy) I think he would, actually. Probably the only other mortal with that courage is Aragorn.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Apr 24 2016, 6:21pm
Post #8 of 145
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They don't need a device like Grond to smash up the others.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 24 2016, 6:37pm
Post #10 of 145
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If the Ring were in Minas Tirith,
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shouldn't Denethor or Gandalf be using it against Sauron?
It's not clear how it works in warfare, but Sauron definitely fears his enemies getting a hold on the One Ring. If so, shouldn't his minions have reported that Gondor's defenses were crumbling? Or does the Ring have a learning curve, and might Sauron suppose they're still reading the user manual?
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 24 2016, 6:39pm
Post #11 of 145
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Possible - but the other gates won't be made of plywood
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Real-life European castles use that concentric design, with that same idea of forcing the attacker through checkpoints. So I'm imagining MT has something like British castles I've seen - Portcullises, murder holes and very stout doors made of aged oak inches thick. The attackers might not need a 100-foot battering ram, but it's going to require more than orcs with axe, even if the defenders have all been nazgulled out of their skulls and are not doing much active defending.
Storming the interior walls with scaling ladders is another possibility, suppose, but tall ladders aren't easy to handle in a town, either.
Who knows - it's all speculation - but I think progressing at a level a day could be quite challenging.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 24 2016, 7:23pm
Post #12 of 145
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1)What do we learn from these conversations - e.g. about characters and their relationships with each other?
Something I appreciate about Denethor in re-reading this chapter is how in his arguments with Gandalf, he seems the less wise, but he's good at poking holes in what Gandalf says, and he raises issues that readers would raise too.
Then there's his second eye-duel with Gandalf, and remarkably after that, Denethor becomes more rationale again. "If I had, if you had," rendering the whole argument academic, which is a mature way to look at things.
That's a good balance to him going completely nuts a little farther on, when he prefers death by self-immolation to death by Sauron's army.
But that begs the question: why did Denethor make such a show to Pippin earlier about wearing his mail armor even to sleep in, as if ever prepared to fight to the bitter end? That's maybe not a fair question, since asking why crazy people do crazy things doesn't get you very far, but maybe someone has some insight into this that I'm missing.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 24 2016, 7:45pm
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Is he mostly a narrator in this chapter, like a Shire war correspondent? We see much of it through his eyes, and he seems to serve as a prompt for others to say things and deliver news.
I am touched by Pippin's hobbit-candor at one point, when he says to Gandalf:
"...is there any hope? For Frodo, I mean; or at least mostly for Frodo." I find that a charming expression of him saying he's worried about Frodo, but he's worried about himself too, which he has a right to be. Anyone would feel conflicted in such dire straits, and it's a mark of character that he's not only worried about himself.
Another Pippin point: was his decision to essentially betray Denethor and seek out Gandalf to save Faramir simple ("the old man's crazy, I gotta find a Wizard to stop this") or sophisticated? In some ways I think it was a simple hobbit reaction to something horrible, but at other times I think he's the smartest thinker in all of Minas Tirith at the moment: everyone else seems to be giving in to despair, and Pippin remains remarkably and lucid all the way down to the first gate, even recruiting Beregond along the way, which proves vital. But still, he did betray the lord he had sworn to serve just a few days before--why isn't he more conflicted about that?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 24 2016, 8:10pm
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How much does Sauron know, and when did he know it?
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This might be fridge-logicky of me, but Sauron knew a Halfling had the One, and that it got to Rivendell. Gandalf will say all along that Sauron assumes they'll use the One against him or at least hide it and never thinks they'd destroy it. So, my question: wouldn't Sauron assume that ever since the Council of Elrond, the One has been entrusted to a powerful keeper who's going to Gondor to use it against him? What else could he possibly assume?
He saw Pippin in the palantir, so maybe that threw him off, thinking a Halfling still has the Ring for some unknown reason, and that Saruman nearly got possession of it. But he learns soon enough from the destruction of Isengard that Saruman doesn't have the One, so again, it's in the hands of Gandalf or one of his ilk. That means Gandalf and Company will have had months to learn how to use it, which makes that comment from Gandalf that you quoted seem based on faulty logic: would they take the Ring all the way to Minas Tirith for months and wait until the war starts to decide how to use it? Then again, the Wise aren't always Wise, so maybe that's a fair assumption on his part.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 24 2016, 8:32pm
Post #17 of 145
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No, the Ring just made a liar out of you. Careful, it has evil effects on its owners, or so I've heard.//
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 24 2016, 8:45pm
Post #18 of 145
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Maybe Sauron understands enough to expect a long time of confusion?
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I think I see what you mean: if it was knives out at the Council of Elrond, then the new Ring Lord will have had time to practice. But then, in that case, why come East at all? Why not start breeding orcs in Rivendell, and build up a power base in the west before a final confrontation?
So perhaps Sauron knows that the wise men gut not "fall" immediately. Maybe he thinks there's been a time of uncertainty while people's initially good motives were being corrupted, and while people treacherously moved the Ring around to seek advantage. For example, maybe Gandalf duped Elrobd into taking the Ring west, only to be double -crossed by Aragorn who was initially working with Galadriel before tricking her....
...or some such unedifying tale.
So maybe it's not too unreasonable for Sauron to think the Ring has only just corrupted its current holder enough for him to be inside Minas Tirith and making pledges to rebuild the Rammas Echor and make Sauron pay for it?
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Apr 24 2016, 10:29pm
Post #19 of 145
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I do think that Denethor's habit of constantly wearing armor is a sure sign of him losing his mind. It seems decidedly irrational to me, and I think that is the author's purpose in showing us this.
As for Denethor's purpose purpose in showing Pippin, I find that very interesting in itself. I think he wants to demonstrate to Pippin and Gandalf that he is several steps ahead of everyone else. He makes many such references to the superiority of his knowledge throughout this chapter:
To Faramir after his initial debriefing:
'My son, your father is old but not yet a dotard. I can see and hear, as was my wont; and little of what you have half said or left unsaid is now hidden from me.'
To Gandalf concerning the Witchking:
'For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is that all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?'
To Gandalf concerning the fall of Cair Andros and the use of a mounted sortie:
'but to me this is not longer news: it was known to me ere nightfall yesterday. As for the sortie, I had already given thought to it. Let us go down.'
To me, Denethor increasingly comes across as boastful through his own words. I think we are seeing here Sauron's influence. The palantir has affected Denethor in a way similar to the One Ring. Denethor has always been exceptionally wise and foresighted. Sauron has cunningly caught him through the pride Denethor takes in that exceptional foresightedness and wisdom. Denethor sees the palantir as an invaluable tool in his own especially apt hand. He believes that through his use of the stone his knowledge has increased far beyond that of Gandalf or anyone else. He doesn't realize, however, the way that Sauron has manipulated what he has seen in the palantir. Sauron has filled Denethor with a despair which Denethor believes to be the truest wisdom.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Apr 24 2016, 11:01pm
Post #20 of 145
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But on the other hand: Sympathy for the Denethor
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Even though we do see signs of Denethor losing his mind, I think we also see some examples of exceptional sharp-mindedness from him as well. He does do a good job in organizing the defense of Minas Tirith, despite how almost utterly hopeless the situation is. And he does make some really good points in his discussions with Gandalf. He also defies Gandalf with one of my all-time favorite lines from the book:
'You are wise, maybe, Mithrandir, yet with all your subtleties you have not all wisdom. Counsels may be found that are neither the webs of wizards nor the haste of fools.'
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Apr 24 2016, 11:26pm
Post #21 of 145
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I'd say Pippin's decision to save Faramir is sophisticated in its simplicity
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In essence, Pippin simply does what any stouthearted Hobbit would do in this situation. Faramir isn't dead yet, so let's not burn him. It's as simple as that. Hard to argue with that logic.
Denethor, conversely, through a much more sophisticated, subtle and complicated thought process, has deduced completely the opposite. To Denethor a funeral pyre for him and his son is the only logical course of action. He has checked in his palantir, taken careful stock of the battle, listened to Gandalf and his commanders and so arrived at the very well-informed, desperate conclusion that it would be better to burn oneself than to be burned by the enemy.
Ultimately, Denethor is almost sophisticated to the point of absurdity. But, then, he is not in his right mind anymore.
Yet, I don't think that Pippin betrays Denethor when he runs to get help, since he has been released from his lord's service at that point.
"Good Morning!"
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 25 2016, 12:25am
Post #22 of 145
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I like your contrast between the two
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And you're right, it very much seems like Denethor has painted himself into a corner, or "thought" himself into a corner, painting the entire floor with his thoughts until only that tiny corner of "burn thyself" was left as the outcome.
Pippin was relying more on gut instinct, perhaps: "this is wrong, it shouldn't happen." He didn't think about the Gondorian Bill of Parental Rights to Burn Dying Sons, or Duties One Owes to One's Liegelord Even When Released from Service. Denethor, in Pippin's place, would have thought of those things and more, and weighed them carefully in the balance before reaching conclusions and taking action.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 25 2016, 12:42am
Post #23 of 145
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I think they were both too clever for their own good, and too sure of their cleverness, but they were undoubtedly smarter than most of the people around them. Intelligent but not wise. And each ensnared in their own way by the palantir into seeking more knowledge, which contributed to their downfall.
If Denethor hadn't been so clever, I don't think his descent into madness would have seemed as tragic.
That is a good quote from Denethor. I feel like when he is arguing with Gandalf, he's more of his intellectual equal than even Saruman is.
Other good Denethor quotes from this chapter:
"Comfort me not with wizards!" >> makes me laugh!
"Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed for myself." >> I like this one because he admits to a degree that it was his mistake to send Boromir to Rivendell when Faramir wanted to go, and I'm surprised to ever hear Denethor admit to a mistake. Though it's also a little cruel, because he makes it sound as if he wished Faramir had died in Boromir's place. Denethor is not a villain, but he's not likable either.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 25 2016, 12:45am
Post #24 of 145
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PS. Thanks for being the last-minute subsitute, Wiz! //
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Apr 25 2016, 2:20am
Post #25 of 145
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After removing Faramir from the pyre, Gandalf boldly and baldly tells Denethor;
"Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death"
This seems to indicate that Gandalf, and by extension us, believes that Denethor has exceeded his authority, and had no right or power to order his own death or Faramir's. We don't know for certain, as we don't know what checks and balances might exist on the power of the Ruling Steward of Gondor, but that is enough to at least muddy the legal waters about whether Pippin was really a traitor or not.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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