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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 28 2016, 10:00pm
Post #126 of 145
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I wonder how much deception Saruman needed.
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He went over to Sauron's side, or at least pretended to while desiring to supplant him. Whatever else was wrong with Denethor, he didn't want to become Dark Lord #3. So there was built-in struggle between Denethor and Sauron, and cooperation (and mutual decpetion?) between Sauron and Saruman. But good point, Denethor had the double blow of losing his family AND his kingdom at the same time. His house came crashing down all at once.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 28 2016, 10:05pm
Post #127 of 145
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I'm not sure how readily Sauron could have played on Saruman's pride/folly/greed/power lust, without a direct connection to his mind.
To think of this as an alternate story where Saruman doesn't have a handy-dandy palantir, the only way he'd become Sauron's partner in crime is if they sent secret agents to each other to establish a dialogue. Possible, perhaps, but not the same as sitting in your parlor and talking to the Evil One hundreds of leagues away. Saruman might have remained a weak link in the White Council, or possible as unreliable in his own way as Radagast, but not necessarily a co-conspirator. He'd still seek the Ring in the Gladden Fields, spy on the Shire, etc, but go as far as assembling an Orc army and attacking Rohan? Maybe not.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 28 2016, 10:06pm
Post #128 of 145
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One man's junk is another's treasure...
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Sauron got Saruman's goat with pride and ambition. (I will show you the power of the Dark Side!) He may have hooked Denethor with resposibilty. (Don't you love your people?) Different poisions for different folks... I'm sure he had a lot of tricks if the seductive power of the Ring is any way related to his personality.
Sing a song of long lament The days be past, the years are spent The flames of fire, on funeral pyre The warrior's soul it's wing'd way hath sent
(This post was edited by Rembrethil on Apr 28 2016, 10:07pm)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Apr 28 2016, 10:49pm
Post #129 of 145
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...if, at that point, Sauron knew who was occupying that fleet.
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enanito
Rohan
Apr 28 2016, 11:28pm
Post #130 of 145
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Nasty palantir, tricksing poor old Sauron like that. Curse it! We hates it, we hates it, we hates it forever!
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Apr 29 2016, 1:24am
Post #131 of 145
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Saruman and Denethor's corruption; and what did Gandalf see?
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Right. There is a big difference between Saruman's use of the palantir and Denethor's. Saruman had already been corrupted by a personal desire for power. He dared to converse with Sauron directly, believing that he could deceive Sauron and also believing that he could conceal from Sauron his own secret ambitions. But once Saruman was in direct contact with that more evil and powerful being, he was completely vulnerable to being dominated directly. But Denethor was not trying to converse with Sauron. He was just trying to gather intelligence. So, he was not directly exposed to Sauron's might, and he was never dominated or overcome. At least, I don't think we can assume so. Indirectly, I think, Denethor needed to exert himself in order to avoid a confrontation with Sauron and maintain control over the palantir, and this must have worn Denethor down and doubtless sapped his will to fight and his hope for victory. And maybe that was the only way that Sauron really did enter into Minas Tirith. For while Gandalf may be right in thinking that Sauron had the power to infiltrate Denethor's mind with propoganda, the fact is that he really didn't need to. The might of the East was overwhelming - in truth. And Denethor could have come to that conclusion on his own, finally breaking when he discovers a captured hobbit in the tower of Cirith Ungol without a Ring. Is Gandalf's guess about what Denethor saw any better than ours?
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Apr 29 2016, 1:36am
Post #132 of 145
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Of course, he had a palantir, so he might have known, but maybe he wasn't looking when Aragorn took over the ships. But, whether it was by Sauron's doing or his own, Denethor would have been just as dismayed by the black sails My guess is that Sauron saw the Corsair Fleet coming up Anduin and went to make himself a bowl of popcorn to enjoy when the battle started (that's what I would have done). Then, by the time he came back, that sneaky ranger had flipped the script, and Sauron was none the wiser.
"Good Morning!"
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Apr 29 2016, 1:59am
Post #133 of 145
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A funny thing happened on the way to the Harlond...
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Of course, he had a palantir, so he might have known, but maybe he wasn't looking when Aragorn took over the ships. But, whether it was by Sauron's doing or his own, Denethor would have been just as dismayed by the black sails My guess is that Sauron saw the Corsair Fleet coming up Anduin and went to make himself a bowl of popcorn to enjoy when the battle started (that's what I would have done). Then, by the time he came back, that sneaky ranger had flipped the script, and Sauron was none the wiser. Sauron might or might not have known, but if he did that information had not trickled down to the front lines, since Sauron's fleeing forces were not expecting Aragorn and his troops when the Corsair ships arrived.
While you live, shine Have no grief at all Life exists only for a short while And time demands an end. Seikilos Epitaph
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 29 2016, 4:44am
Post #134 of 145
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The palantir came to Saruman rather late in the game
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I mean from an external viewpoint: Tolkien had written all of Saruman's treason, including his creation of the Uruk-hai and his armed assault on Rohan, before he ever thought to invent the palantir which Grima tossed down at Gandalf during the Parley at ruined Isengard. So, from Tolkien's point of view, all of Saruman's evil was, originally, independent though in line with Sauron's, i.e., from the same motivation to dominate and order Middle-earth. But the direct link via the Stone, and the suggestion that Saruman had been an ally/puppet of Sauron's the entire time, came later. In many ways the concept 'explains' the White Wizard's drastic fall, but in other ways it diminishes Saruman as a character, as we've noted in this discussion.
squire online: RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'. Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!" Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 29 2016, 7:14am
Post #135 of 145
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I mean from an external viewpoint: Tolkien had written all of Saruman's treason, including his creation of the Uruk-hai and his armed assault on Rohan, before he ever thought to invent the palantir which Grima tossed down at Gandalf during the Parley at ruined Isengard. By 'he', do you mean Tolkien? Because Saruman did not invent the palantír at Isengard, it had been kept in the tower since soon after the destruction of Númenor. I will agree that Saruman's fall began years before he first used the Orthanc-stone, allegedly around TA 3000. He had been concealing actions from the Council since at least 2851 and in secret turned away from it in 2953, supporting attacks against Rohan soon after. However, I think that the Wizard's corruption was gradual and began with a thought to ally with Sauron in order to minimize the damage he would bring to Middle-earth.
"Things need not to have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." - Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 29 2016, 7:21am)
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Apr 29 2016, 10:00am
Post #136 of 145
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'If I had! If you had! Such words and ifs are vain.'
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Yet more pertinent wisdom from Denethor. It's very interesting to ponder the benefits and detriments of the palantiri, although it is difficult, and I'm not sure it ends up being all that productive. We don't really know all the good that the palantiri may have accomplished over the years before the events of the War. And in any case, the palantiri were, and in being became a tool that could be used either for good or evil. Orthanc and Minas Ithil could be considered in the same category. I would say that the thing to focus on is how the palantiri were used, especially should they have been used once it was suspected that one had fallen into the hands of Sauron.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Apr 29 2016, 10:11am
Post #137 of 145
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A difficult trick for Gandalf was finding the right balance
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You bring up another good point in discussing the effects of using the palantir, Curious: Gandalf was fully prepared to face the Witchking at the Great Gate. And he was fully prepared to chase after him when the WK sped off to the battlefield. It was only Pippin's intervention that stopped him. He also wasn't hesitant to ride out and use his power to protect Faramir when he first returned to Minas Tirith. So, I would have to say that the idea that Gandalf wouldn't face the WK, because he wanted to leave it to the people of Middle-earth is really a bit of revisionist history. I think that the WK, like the Balrog, was one of those greater powers that Gandalf felt justified in battling for the sake of the people of Middle-earth. That, too, was part of his mission - to help even things up in light of the fact that a battle with a fallen demi-god like Sauron wasn't really a fair fight for the people of Middle-earth.
"Good Morning!"
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 29 2016, 12:08pm
Post #138 of 145
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You're right, palantiri are like morphine
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A wonderful drug when used the right away, and an awful drug when used the wrong way. I should have drawn the line between when the Gondor and Arnor realms were at their height, and the palantiri helped bring them together and prevented their enemies from catching them by surprise. They didn't cause any harm then. It was when they fell into the wrong hands that trouble started. So the palantiri themselves are not to blame.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 29 2016, 1:23pm
Post #139 of 145
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I'm not sure what you mean by a weaker character. There are traitors who become awed by the power they are facing or think that they have been slighted. It may be a petty reason, but I'm not sure what you mean by 'weaken'... I think the precedent of high treason on the part of a powerful being was already set by Sauron himself. Also, I'm curious (Not of the G variety)... When the drafts had Saruman and his treason as independent from Sauron, did he still invade Rohan? Seems to me that would have lessened the numbers in his Uruk-Hai army. Then again they are theoretically superior to the rank and file orcs, and IIRC they bred more quickly... Or maybe he intended to dominate Rohan and add their military power to his in order to face down Sauron. He could then deal with pesky Gondor at leisure. Oh, the pitfalls of alternative histories...
Sing a song of long lament The days be past, the years are spent The flames of fire, on funeral pyre The warrior's soul it's wing'd way hath sent
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 29 2016, 1:43pm
Post #140 of 145
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I think we might disagree a little...
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Not that it is any issue. It always gets confusing when we try to consider what a literary character might or might not have done. Its even harder to question their motives. (Heck, it fiendishly hard to figure these out in RL!!!). Added to the normal mix we have to consider the author's intent and, yes, failings. I think it's a great compliment that we take the Professor's work so seriously! Now I think that Gandalf was the embodiment of Hope, so he was there to rally flagging courage and support the insecure. The WK (and Nazgul in general) spread fear and confusion-- the antithesis of Gandalf's mission. So I do agree ( In character) he felt justified in facing the WK because he was there to counteract the unnatural gloom and despair. Gandalf thought that the greatest danger was on the battlefield, but actually it was in the citadel. Gandalf-- an imperfect administrator of an ideal-- had a flaw that predisposed him to rush in to fight on the frontlines, but now he knew his mission required him to be somewhere else. Externally, I think that he had to confront Denethor's madness because it showed that if the heart of a cause dies, it brings ruin. We can fight evil, but if it gets inside the walls and is not dealt with, it kills from inside out. Plus the aborted confrontation makes for great suspense.
Sing a song of long lament The days be past, the years are spent The flames of fire, on funeral pyre The warrior's soul it's wing'd way hath sent
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enanito
Rohan
Apr 29 2016, 9:53pm
Post #141 of 145
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Although I was looking forward to Mironiel's take on this chapter, you did a bang-up job of last-minute leading. Your starter questions were obviously great as well as the follow-up ideas, this chapter discussion has been one of the most active I've seen recently! Thnx.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Apr 29 2016, 11:00pm
Post #142 of 145
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Have we not been told quite firmly, early on in this chapter that the roads are cut and that Rohan cannot come to aid the heroic beleaguered people of this city? So how comes we are been told now that horns are blowing and that Rohan has come at last? Eh?
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enanito
Rohan
Apr 29 2016, 11:28pm
Post #143 of 145
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Perhaps they were trying to one-up Aragorn...
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... by taking the lesser known shortcut commonly known as "The Paths Of The Mostly-Dead"?
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Apr 30 2016, 4:53am
Post #145 of 145
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Alse, note the map of the Pelennor
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Here: The enemy is concentrating on Minas Tirith, and invading along the road from Osgiliath. The Rohirrim are entering near the 11 o'clock point, east of the main road in from Anorien (which is blocked). No one is paying much attention up there. Also, they actually entered some hours before the cock crew, giving them time to get into position.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Apr 30 2016, 4:54am)
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