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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 12 2016, 11:21am
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****LOTR Read through Book V.2 The Passing of the Grey Company -Part 2 of 3: Eowyn and Aragorn ****
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This chapter is where we get most of our opportunity to see Eowyn through her speech and actions (as opposed to the Houses of Healing, where she’s unconscious and the men who care for her discuss her case with each other).
Eowyn is one of my favourite characters. She’s doubly unusual in LOTR- a female character in a story where most of the characters are male, and moreover a female character with whose troubles and struggles we are invited to identify (c.f. Galadriel, or even more so Arwen, who seem much more distant). I see Eowyn as a fascinating and very believably complex character, though one that it is easy to misread as one or another of the female fantasy character tropes. On the one hand she’s a romantic young woman just as bedazzled by Aragorn as her brother so obviously is (and with the additional complication of mistakenly but not unreasonably viewing him as a potential marriage partner). But it would be a misreading (I think) to view her as a fantasy-fiction love interest character - a foolish emotional girl who bounces from an unrequited love affair to a whirlwind romance with a dramatic suicide attempt in between. Nor do I see her as the more modern cliche of the “warrior princess” (“What a badass! Admire dat ass as she kicks ass”, but expect her rapidly to be eclipsed by the male lead for whose love she’ll surrender all other interests). Eowyn has some element of both tropes, but neither fully explains her, I think. Nor do I think Tolkien has included her because he wants to make general statements about the role of women. I think Eowyn is a character in her own right, not tool for a disguised sermon or lecture. She’s a proud, ambitious woman and evidently very able and intelligent. She’s increasingly desperate to make her mark in some conventionally glorious way before what appears likely to be the end of the world as she knows it. She manifests the Tolkienian virtues of loyalty, kindness, dutifulness and self-sacrifice, though at the time we meet her those have been heavily overdrawn by recent events, and it is not clear how much longer those aspects of her personality can remain uppermost.
You are, of course welcome to agree or disagree with my reading! What I propose now is a close reading of Eowyn’s conversations with Aragorn,which I’ll put in a subthread. That’s where the questions are lurking...
Meanwhile the last word about this scene should probably go to Shamus Young (from his web comic ‘DM Of The Rings’):
A lot of tension in a story happens when the characters do something against the wishes of the audience. ...moments like the one where (in the books, mind you) Eowyn begs Aragorn to let her ride with him into battle, and he refuses because he has no right to accept. Shamus Young “DM Of The Rings” http://www.shamusyoung.com/.../?p=1163&cpage=3
Does it work that way for you - are you left wishing they could find a way for Eowyn to saddle up and come along?
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 12 2016, 11:24am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 12 2016, 11:24am
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**Subthread - a close reading of Eowyn’s conversations with Aragorn (with questions!) **
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When Aragorn and company hasten on to Dunharrow, they meet Eowyn and tell her about the victories at Helm’s Deep and Isengard.
1) What does Eowyn’s reactions to their arrival, and their news from the war tell us about her character? (i’m thinking for example of the passage “when she heard of the battle in Helm’s Deep and the great slaughter of their foes, and of the charge of Theoden and his knights, then her eyes shone”.)
Learning that Aragorn & retinue have not come to wait for the muster (her initial assumption, I think), Eowyn tries to work out why they have come:
"She smiled on him and said: 'Then it was kindly done, lord, to ride so many miles out of your way to bring tidings to Eowyn, and to speak with her in her exile.'
'Indeed no man would count such a journey wasted,' said Aragorn; 'and yet, lady, I could not have come hither, if it were not that the road which I must take leads me to Dunharrow.'
And she answered as one that likes not what is said: 'Then, lord, you are astray; for out of Harrowdale no road runs east or south; and you had best return as you came.'
'Nay, lady,' said he, 'I am not astray; for I walked this land ere you were born to grace it. There is a road out of this valley, and that road I shall take. Tomorrow I shall ride by the Paths of the Dead.'
'Then she stared at him as one that is stricken, and her face blanched, and for long she spoke no more, while all sat silent.
2) What do you make of Aragorn’s courtly speech? Is he deft and kindly in disabusing Eowyn of the idea he’s come specifically to see her? Is his ‘I walked this land ere you were born to grace it’ courtly, or does it disguise a putdown (like ’don’t tell me what to do, young lady!’)?
Once Eowyn learns that Aragorn plans to leave by the Paths of the Dead she is ‘stricken’. As I read it, she thinks Aragorn has gone mad.
3) Aragorn has already described his paths of the Dead plan to Gimli and Legolas, and then to Theoden and Eomer. I notice these characters’ reactions to the plan differ from Eowyn’s? Does this tell us something about these different people, or how they see Aragorn? Given that Aragorn has just spent some time telepathically in the company of Sauron, isn’t it a reasonable hypothesis that he might have gone mad (consider what the palantir did to Saruman - or indeed to Denethor, though we don’t know about that yet)? Why is it only Eowyn who chooses to challenge Aragorn about his new plan?
Shortly after, Eowyn finds an opportunity to have a short private conversation with Aragorn. She tries to persuade him to ride to battle with Theoden, and not go on what she sees as a pointless and suicidal errand to the paths of the Dead. Aragorn denies that he seeks peril needlessly - it’s a matter of duty, he says.
4) Do you read Aragorn as being annoyed that Eowyn is questioning his judgement (or at least thinking it’s inappropriate for her to do so)? Aragorn’s comments on what he would do if he could do what he liked, seem to me to be his way of subtly hinting that he’s ‘in a relationship’ - it’s not clear to me whether Eowyn picks this hint up, or whether it makes any difference if she does.
Eowyn seems to accept Aragorn’s argument. She reaches out to touch him, and asks to be able to come along. Aragorn refuses, as she has a duty that requires her to stay.
Eowyn is not pleased to be reminded about duty - I think Aragorn has stirred a long-festering grievance about Eowyn being given demeaning and unsuitable duties. Aragorn’s insistence that she should do the duty she accepted only annoys her further:
“All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Erol and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.”
5) Is this perhaps a surprising speech for a man of Tolkien’s time and outlook to write ? Is there anything else like it in his works?
6) How do you think her people really see Eowyn: as no more than a handy housekeeper, as she suggests here?
7) Does Aragorn handle this conversation well or badly? Did he mean to lecture Eowyn on duty, and anyway does he have any right to do so? Could/should Aragorn have done more to help Eowyn?
8) Is there something significant about the abrupt end of this conversation?
In the morning, Eowyn makes one last-ditch effort to persuade Aragorn: but now she does not try to persuade him to stay and march with Theoden, she wants him to let her come along. She advances no new arguments, just her intense personal need, and she addresses Aragorn as thee/thou, whilst he replies with the formal ‘you/Lady’.
9) Does this choice of pronouns affect how you see Eowyn and Aragorn in this moment? What does it tell us about them? More generally, what is the effect on you as a reader of this final section of the Eowyn/Aragorn meeting?
10) Who else has addressed Aragorn as ‘thee’ in this chapter, and does that earlier speaker affect your reading of this current passage?
11) Why does Eowyn want to go with Aragorn, if she regards his journey as a probably suicidal mistake, and would prefer him to wait and ride to battle with Theoden?
12) How does Aragorn’s series of conversations about hope and duty with Eowyn here compare or contrast with his deathbed conversation with Awen 120 years later (ROTK Appendix A)?
13) Does the meeting with Aragorn precipitate Eowyn’s decision to disguise herself as Dernhelm and ride to war? Or had she pretty much decided to do something like that already, in your opinion?
Is there anything else you’d like to say about Eowyn as we have seen her so far, and before she unexpectedly turns up on the battlefield?
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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enanito
Rohan
Apr 12 2016, 1:48pm
Post #3 of 65
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My reading isn't that she thinks Aragorn's gone mad, but rather that by his taking a course separate from the Rohirrim, her one chance at "escaping her chains" and going to war is now vanishing. Eowyn was described by Hama as being fearless, and we've seen her eyes shine as the glory of battle was described.
Yet she knows her brother well, and even if Theoden is now back as a leader, she knows his views on her role with their people. I think from the very first time she saw Aragorn, she latched onto him with the hope that he would provide her with escape. If Aragorn were to ride with Theoden, then maybe she could persuade Aragorn to bring her along -- but if his course lies thru the Paths of the Dead, how could she leave her people behind to go along?
The others don't strenuously object (ok, Legolas jumps at the chance), because each is a master of his own destiny, and is able to pursue their own goals and desires -- either by choosing to follow Aragorn through the Paths, or by choosing to follow Theoden to Minas Tirith.
So yeah, the Paths of the Dead is a terrible choice... but not because it's dumb for Aragorn to go there, but it's dumb because she can't figure out a way to go along!
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enanito
Rohan
Apr 12 2016, 2:28pm
Post #4 of 65
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Does Eowyn tug on Aragorn's heartstrings at all?
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OK, I'm prepared to get shot down, so go ahead 
I'm just wondering if anyone gets the impression that Aragorn is affected by Eowyn in any other way than having a noble compassion on her obvious despair and her desire to make a difference? Granted, an initial reading with no context may give one impression -- but once we read Appendix A and see the depth of Arwen and Aragorn's love, or read the stories of Beren and Tuor and see how completely rare Aragorn is, it's hard to envision our faithful and devoted Aragorn having any kind of buyer's regrets regarding his love for Arwen.
I guess maybe I'm asking if Aragorn might feel the pull of his 'base' nature represented by Eowyn, against the 'higher' nature represented by Arwen? Not base in a bad way, just how Humans would leap at the chance to fight noble battles and win glory for a righteous cause, whereas stereotypical Elves would reflect and consider and only go to war as a last resort (yes I'm ignoring Feanor and his ilk!). And perhaps the pain that Aragorn bore at their parting, was at some level an attraction for a woman who represented that side of his humanity?
Or maybe most definitely not -- just asking!!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 12 2016, 5:34pm
Post #5 of 65
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" it would be enquiring too curiously to ask..."
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No shooting down (I think it's a reasonable question!)
[Ivanhoe] lived long and happily with Rowena, for they were attached to each other by the bonds of early affection, and they loved each other the more, from the recollection of the obstacles which had impeded their union. Yet it would be enquiring too curiously to ask, whether the recollection of Rebecca's beauty and magnanimity did not recur to his mind more frequently than the fair descendant of Alfred [i.e. Rowena, Ivanhoe's wife] might altogether have approved.
Penultimate paragraph of Ivanhoe, by Sir Walter Scott
Any Ivanhoe fans about? Probably by co-incidence, there's a parallel between Aragorn-Arwen-Eowyn and Ivanhoe-Rowena-Rebecca. Like Arwen, Rowena is the definite and official 'ship' with the male hero but not much present in the story. Ivanhoe is, instead thrown together with the compassionate Rebecca, who doctors him when he is wounded. In return he champions her in a trial by combat for a jumped-up accusation of witchcraft. Rebecca is a glorious character - kind, brave, and utterly honourable. Apparently Scott got a lot of correspondence from readers who were most put out that Scott did not provide them with the Ivanhoe-Rebecca coupling that the story so obviously would have if it were a conventional romance. There was evidently enough 'shipping' going on that Thackery wrote a parody ending in which Ivanhoe and Rebecca do (very ridiculously) get together.
My reading of Ivanhoe is that while Rebecca and Ivanhoe are thrown together there is a possibility of a romance developing, but that both parties are determined that it shall not. I similarity think that Aragorn is trying to rebuff what he takes as expressions of Romantic interest from Eowyn (but trying to do so very subtly, so that she is not forced to realise that he noticed that she...). Whether there is any smidgen of him thinking 'well you know, in other circumstances...' and having to be very determined that nothing untoward develops, I have no idea.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 12 2016, 5:54pm
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What's 'shipping', eh precious?
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Something to do with the earllier single-quoted term 'ship', I'll wager. Noun or verb? Nautical or not?
As for Aragorn, I don't think there is even a smidgen, as you put it, of evidence that Aragorn is attracted to Eowyn romantically. Tolkien seems to tease us because, when he first wrote her appearance at Edoras, Aragorn was still unattached, and the author was in fact contemplating a romance. But as the mega-meaningful Arwen story developed, Tolkien revisited all his scenes between Aragorn and Eowyn. He made very sure that there was no evidence for the reader to think that Eowyn's adoration was returned in any form other than, as Aragorn puts it, "bitterness and shame ... to behold the love of a lady so fair and brave that cannot be returned."
I haven't read Ivanhoe. Can you tell us if, besides Scott's cheery jibe at the end, there is any indication, smidgen, or whatever that Ivanhoe is actually attracted to Rebecca during his adventures with her, and so must make some final 'choice' between the two ladies in his life? Were his readers making it up as much as Tolkien's readers tend to do, or did Tolkien play a straighter game?
squire online:
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 12 2016, 6:20pm
Post #7 of 65
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What's 'shipping', eh precious?
Shipping is a fan-phenomenon (If case you really don't know) where fans match-up their picks for favorite couples.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 12 2016, 6:38pm
Post #8 of 65
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""He calls me DEAR Rebecca," said the maiden to herself, "but it is in the cold and careless tone which ill suits the word."
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Her thought continue with "His war-horse—his hunting hound, are dearer to him than the despised Jewess!"
For better or worse, Scott was confronting a topic that Tolkien is not. Possibly that last paragraph noWiz quotes was all Scott felt he could get away with.
Sador suggested here the relationship of Gimli and Galadriel that Tolkien makes for an interesting comparison with Ivanhoe (see also here and especially here).
(Hmm. A Google search for "Ivanhoe", if you pause typing at "Ivan", suggesrs "Ivanka Trump" as a result.)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 12 2016, 7:04pm
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Yep, that's the one. Thanks for the fix. //
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Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Apr 12 2016, 7:41pm
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She is Jewish. In the time frame of the story, Jews were considered alien, "Christ-killers," and were often treated badly when Christians weren't dependent on their money-lending roles. Ivanhoe is portrayed as incredibly heroic for responding with gratitude to her doctoring and actually coming to her defense. But that relationship could not work out, for the same reason that the relationship in The Last of the Mohicans and other similar cross-cultural relationships were not consummated in traditional fiction.
In LotR, the "forbidden" relationship is, in fact, the successful one, but first-time readers don't have any way to know that for a long time, so the possibility that Éowyn may triumph with Aragorn seems likely.
I highly recommend Ivanhoe, btw. It's a terrific story.
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Meneldor
Valinor
Apr 12 2016, 8:57pm
Post #13 of 65
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I'm just chiming in with my own recommendation for reading Ivanhoe.
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It's not a quick read, but, hey, we're Tolkien fans!
I've seen 3 different film versions of Ivanhoe, and all 3 did a pretty good job with the shipping as Scott wrote it. Also, Elizabeth Taylor made a compelling Rebecca, IMO.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 12 2016, 9:03pm
Post #14 of 65
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Scott's reply to the readers castigating him for not writing an Ivanhoe- Rebecca Union
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Was that not only did the "prejudices of the age" make such an ending impossible, but that Rebecca's lofty character would have been "degraded rather than exalted by an attempt to reward her with temporal prosperity". As I read it, it's just not a pairing that would have worked.
If I've got the technology right, you can read Scott's comments here:
http://amzn.to/23CdaTC
I also note that Rebecca's heroic refusal to give up her Jewish faith even when it is baptism or death is one of the high points of the novel. So having her choose Ivanhoe over her faith would have been just ridiculous as an ending. I think The novel gains a lot by refusing to give its readers what many of them clearly wanted.
I'd second that recommendation for Ivanhoe: it's dated in places, but if anyone can be said to have achieved a national myth for England (one that the English believed of themselves) it's Scott in that book. He also, BTW, invents many of the canonical bits of the Robin Hood story as we know it today.
Anyway, I should resist going much further down an Ivanhoe tangent! Elizabeth is right to say that, as far as Eowyn is aware, there's no particular barrier to Aragorn marrying her if they both wish (unlike Ivanhoe-Rebecca with the obvious religious and class barriers). Aragorn might, perhaps, have done well to introduce her to the two Rivendellers in his party, explains that they are the brothers of his betrothed...
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 12 2016, 9:27pm
Post #17 of 65
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I believe that alternative versions of stories with alternative shippings are also common in the fan fiction for some fandoms (does anyone know whether this is the case for Tolkien fan fiction?)
But family board....
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“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 12 2016, 9:49pm
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So is NoWiz right to use fan-fiction terminology to characterize Tolkien's writing of the actual story? Not 'right' like there's some official doctrine - more like 'right' as in is that the clearest and most informative way to discuss the story as Tolkien wrote it?
Shipping is more like fans of the books and movies wanting to put Aragorn and Éowyn together (or Frodo and Sam, or Legolas and Gimli).
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 12 2016, 10:27pm
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For some reason, all the discussions I remember about such subjects, in this place anyway, have been about whether the author - good old Tolkien - foresaw, understood, mishandled, ignored, or abandoned an idea for a particular relationship.
The TV Tropes article (witty and comprehensive as always) describes what seems to me to be a truly terrifying world of fandoms out there... somewhere.... hopefully not here.
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enanito
Rohan
Apr 12 2016, 10:42pm
Post #23 of 65
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Interesting to characterize my question in those terms
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Hmmm. Well, I hope my question was understood to definitely not be trying to 'ship' Aragorn and Eowyn. But I don't necessarily think it's a "treasonous offence" to have a noble person recognize a potential attraction to another, and then immediately discard the notion. It seems more fantastical to have a character who once fully in love, never even whiffs any other attractions.
So I wouldn't say Aragorn is tested, remaining faithful to Arwen is no trial at all. But I was indeed wondering if in any way this way a temptation for Aragorn. Not in the insidious evil form of a temptation, but a pull on a portion of Aragorn's humanity that Eowyn represented?
For instance, imagine a big party amongst Elves, then imagine one amongst the Rohirrim. Neither better than the other, and I could see Aragorn enjoying both, but Eowyn feeling out-of-place in the first, and Arwen feeling out-of-place in the second.
So perhaps I am just reading too much into the pain that Aragorn has at their parting, but I was wondering if anyone thought Tolkien phrased it that way to mean a bit more.
And yes once this is brought up some will immediately jump to extremes (this forum excepted  ), I'm just trying to explore a bit of the grayer area around this (if any exists at all).
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 12 2016, 11:38pm
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I think we are all very used to the convention of the noble hero who suppresses his lustful instincts, because he's just that darned good. That in itself is remarkable and conventional in contrast to the everyday hero who is torn in two, etc., or the modern antihero who isn't even torn in two and just goes ahead and indulges his animal spirits, etc.
So it is hard, I think, for many of us to take Aragorn as the even nobler hero who really doesn't 'acknowledge' (as you say) an attraction at all, except in the most platonic sense of admiring true feminine beauty and a noble spirit. But in reading the story as written, I have always been convinced that that is indeed how we are supposed to take Aragorn. He is not perfect. He is torn by self-doubt and a fear of his ancestors' failings. But sex is not his weakness, not in this story.
If it helps, remember that Aragorn is, in fact, quite a lot older and more experienced than Eowyn. Not every mature man falls for the equivalent of teenagers!
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Apr 13 2016, 1:27am
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If it helps, remember that Aragorn is, in fact, quite a lot older and more experienced than Eowyn. Not every mature man falls for the equivalent of teenagers!
In modern Hollywood, there is a trend towards "if you want it, then it can't be bad", and circumstances are usually arranged to allow the thing without moral quandary. (Example: the married lady of the house is attracted to her new cute neighbor guy, who is a decent sort, and returns the affections. How do you solve this quandary? Have the husband be an abusive jerk, or else he is already having an affair, therefore anything she does after that is justified.)
Aragorn is emphatically not that. As you say, and this is an important point, he is considerably older that Eowyn, and he would be justified in considering her a child based on that. He might find it wrong to feel an attraction like that; or it may be more like a 30 year old fending off the attractions of an eight year old with a crush. He would rather do himself an injury than emotionally harm her, especially after all she has been through, but he is simply does not see her in a romantic way. And this is all separate from the whole "Gee, I really love Arwen" thing, which is a major motivating force all on it's own.
This kind of turned into a ramble, but my take on it s that he looks on her as a foster child, or a younger sister. He has feelings for her, but most definitely not the ones she is looking for. He knows that, and it is painful for him since he does not see any easy way out of the problem; but he has other things to worry about (the Ring, winning the war). Fortunately, by the end of the book, the situation has resolved itself without requiring him to cause her emotional turmoil.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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