|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 15 2016, 1:14pm
Post #51 of 65
(723 views)
Shortcut
|
“But to some-one I must now entrust my people that I leave behind, to rule in my place. Which of you will stay?”
No man spoke.
“Is there none you would name? In whom do my people trust?”
“In the house of Eorl”, answered Hama.
“But Eomer I cannot spare, nor would he stay”, said the king…
(Emphasis mine.)
******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 15 2016, 4:14pm
Post #53 of 65
(710 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I wonder whether Rohan is less formal than other societies about these things
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I do agree with Elizabeth - chains of command are a common need in all kinds of organizations of people. But I note what might be some cultural differences about formal law.
Haldir in Lorien, required to blindfold Gimli, and replying to the Fellowship's protests that this is unreasonable: "I do not doubt you," said Haldir. "Yet this is our law. I am not the master of the law, and cannot set it aside. I have done much in letting you set foot over Celebrant."
Aragorn, as King 'punishes' Beregond for taking the actions that led to Faramir being saved. It seems as if he doesn't feel he can disregard the law due to the extenHamauating circumstances. Of course he cleverly 'punishes' Beregond by giving him a promotion and what is probably his dream job, so ends up looking both wise, kind and constitutional.
So maybe those are the models Aragorn is used to - the word of the law must be respected (perhaps especially by the powerful).
Rohan seems more informal - is left to make his own judgement about whether to admit Gandalf & Co ("I believe you are friends and folk worthy of honour, who have no evil purpose. You may go in."). When sent to release Eomer, he uses his initiative to hand him his sword. In neither case does Theoden make a fuss about disobeying orders, once he's satisfied that Hama made a reasonable on-the-spot decision (as opposed to flouting authority). Similarly it seems (the passage Darkstone just quoted) that Theoden expects Eomer to refuse or at least resist an order to command the home front. Lastly, when it is all over, Beregond has to be 'punished' but no-one seems to think it necessary to have Eowyn explain decision to desert her post.
So I wonder - does it seem much more reasonable to Eowyn than it does to Aragorn that she might appoint a suitable deputy, accompany Aragorn, then square it with Theoden later?
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 15 2016, 4:58pm
Post #54 of 65
(712 views)
Shortcut
|
So I wonder - does it seem much more reasonable to Eowyn than it does to Aragorn that she might appoint a suitable deputy, accompany Aragorn, then square it with Theoden later?
Grimbold was a lesser marshal of the Riders of West-mark in Théodred's command, and was given this position [the role (but not title) of Third Marshal of the Mark], as a man of valour in both the battles at the Fords, because Erkenbrand was an older man, and the King felt the need of one of dignity and authority to leave behind in command of such forces as could be spared for the defence of Rohan.
-Appendix (i) to 'The Battles of thr Fords of Isen', Unfinished Tales (Emphasis mine)
Whether Eowyn stayed, left, or dropped dead was irrelevant to the patriarchy.
******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 15 2016, 5:01pm)
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 15 2016, 5:19pm
Post #55 of 65
(706 views)
Shortcut
|
What with Tolkien's Catholicism, being tempted would have failed the test.
******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 18 2016, 9:27pm
Post #56 of 65
(668 views)
Shortcut
|
|
You can't give someone permission to be free.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Kambei Shimada: You embarrass me. You're overestimating me. Listen, I'm not a man with any special skill, but I've had plenty of experience in battles; losing battles, all of them. In short, that's all I am. Drop such an idea for your own good.
Katsushiro: No Sir, my decision has been made. I'll follow you sir.
Kambei Shimada: I forbid it. I can't afford to take a kid with me.
-Seven Samurai (1954)
Meanwhile the last word about this scene should probably go to Shamus Young (from his web comic ‘DM Of The Rings’):
------------------------------
Quote
-------------------------------------
A lot of tension in a story happens when the characters do something against the wishes of the audience. ...moments like the one where (in the books, mind you) Eowyn begs Aragorn to let her ride with him into battle, and he refuses because he has no right to accept.
---------------------------
Does it work that way for you - are you left wishing they could find a way for Eowyn to saddle up and come along?
She not asking to go along. She's asking for permission to go along.
Aragorn knows that the only way for Eowyn to finally break free of her cage is not to ask politely pretty please for the patriarchy to open the door, but for her to break it down herself.
Just go!!!
Which in the end, she does.
******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 20 2016, 1:58pm
Post #57 of 65
(647 views)
Shortcut
|
Theoden was born in Gondor and raised by a very graceful Gondorian lady and a Rohirrim father who was in self-imposed exile in service to the Steward of Gondor. Rohirric was Theoden's third language learned only after he and his family moved back to Rohan. Given the absence of any Gondorian fighting women I'd say the concept of a Shieldmaiden would be fundamentally alien to him, a quaint tradition of Rohan's past to be indulged when his niece wanted to play war, but hardly something to be taken seriously when real war broke out.
Eowyn of course was a born and bred woman of Rohan, steeped in its traditions, definitely taking Shieldmaidening *very* seriously, and doubtless quite confused and hurt when her uncle suddenly dismissed the tradition out of hand when it mattered the most.
******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 20 2016, 6:32pm
Post #59 of 65
(635 views)
Shortcut
|
"I guess you've really gotta watch your step in a game called 'Hero's Doody!'"
-Princess Vanellope von Schweetz, Wreck-It Ralph (2012)
.When Aragorn and company hasten on to Dunharrow, they meet Eowyn and tell her about the victories at Helm’s Deep and Isengard.
1) What does Eowyn’s reactions to their arrival,…
A bit girlish.
… and their news from the war tell us about her character? (i’m thinking for example of the passage “when she heard of the battle in Helm’s Deep and the great slaughter of their foes, and of the charge of Theoden and his knights, then her eyes shone”.)
A bit bloodthirsty, but of course she’s an old fashioned Anglo-Saxon girl. Tacitus in his “Germania” (98 AD) notes “It stands on record that armies wavering on the point of collapse have been restored by the women” as they act as cheerleaders, encouraging their men “with earnest entreaties and bosoms laid bare”.
Learning that Aragorn & retinue have not come to wait for the muster (her initial assumption, I think), Eowyn tries to work out why they have come:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
"She smiled on him and said: 'Then it was kindly done, lord, to ride so many miles out of your way to bring tidings to Eowyn, and to speak with her in her exile.'
'Indeed no man would count such a journey wasted,' said Aragorn; 'and yet, lady, I could not have come hither, if it were not that the road which I must take leads me to Dunharrow.'
And she answered as one that likes not what is said: 'Then, lord, you are astray; for out of Harrowdale no road runs east or south; and you had best return as you came.'
'Nay, lady,' said he, 'I am not astray; for I walked this land ere you were born to grace it. There is a road out of this valley, and that road I shall take. Tomorrow I shall ride by the Paths of the Dead.'
'Then she stared at him as one that is stricken, and her face blanched, and for long she spoke no more, while all sat silent.
________________________________________
2) What do you make of Aragorn’s courtly speech?
Nice and formal.
Is he deft and kindly in disabusing Eowyn of the idea he’s come specifically to see her?
The courtly language puts a distance between him and Eowyn. I wonder if that’s how young Professor Tolkien dealt with female students who wrote “LOVE YOU” across their eye-lids and slowly blinked at him during lectures?
Is his ‘I walked this land ere you were born to grace it’ courtly, or does it disguise a putdown (like ’don’t tell me what to do, young lady!’)?
More like “I’m old enough to be your father, young lady! Now stop all this nonsense and start dating callow youths of your own generation!”
Once Eowyn learns that Aragorn plans to leave by the Paths of the Dead she is ‘stricken’. As I read it, she thinks Aragorn has gone mad.
She sees it as only a fool’s hope. (Er, wait. That sounds familiar…)
3) Aragorn has already described his paths of the Dead plan to Gimli and Legolas, and then to Theoden and Eomer. I notice these characters’ reactions to the plan differ from Eowyn’s?
They know a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do, like cheering for their team when The Big Game is on.
Women tend to think that a man oughta do what a man oughta do, like when The Big Game is on and the washing machine breaks.
Does this tell us something about these different people, or how they see Aragorn?
Yes.
Given that Aragorn has just spent some time telepathically in the company of Sauron, isn’t it a reasonable hypothesis that he might have gone mad (consider what the palantir did to Saruman - or indeed to Denethor, though we don’t know about that yet)?
“Long Live Big Eyeball!!”
Why is it only Eowyn who chooses to challenge Aragorn about his new plan?
She’s the only one whose thought processes aren’t affected by Testosterone Poisoning.
Shortly after, Eowyn finds an opportunity to have a short private conversation with Aragorn. She tries to persuade him to ride to battle with Theoden, and not go on what she sees as a pointless and suicidal errand to the paths of the Dead. Aragorn denies that he seeks peril needlessly - it’s a matter of duty, he says.
4) Do you read Aragorn as being annoyed that Eowyn is questioning his judgement (or at least thinking it’s inappropriate for her to do so)?
He was similarly grumpy when Gimli questioned him playing with the palantir. Doesn’t really bode well for his counselors when he becomes High King, does it?
“We really ought to rethink our tax policies with regards to the macroeconomic and microeconomic effects especially with regards to economic activity and allocative efficiency, sire”
“You forget to whom you speak. I am the lawful master of the Exchequer and I have both the right and the strength to use it.”
Aragorn’s comments on what he would do if he could do what he liked, seem to me to be his way of subtly hinting that he’s ‘in a relationship’ - it’s not clear to me whether Eowyn picks this hint up, or whether it makes any difference if she does.
It's really amazing how you can miss subtle little hints (not to mention big red flags) when you're in love.
Eowyn seems to accept Aragorn’s argument. She reaches out to touch him, and asks to be able to come along. Aragorn refuses, as she has a duty that requires her to stay.
If Aragorn can serve Gondor by taking a trip to the Dwimorberg why can’t Eowyn serve Rohan by doing the same?
Eowyn is not pleased to be reminded about duty -
“Lady Eowyn! Time for your duty of giving Theoden King his royal sponge bath!"
It's hard to imagine it *not* being a major mood-killer.
I think Aragorn has stirred a long-festering grievance about Eowyn being given demeaning and unsuitable duties.
"And Lady Eowyn, don't forget your royal duty of emptying the royal doody out of the royal bedpan."
It’s a wonder she doesn’t scream and throw things. I know I would.
Aragorn’s insistence that she should do the duty she accepted only annoys her further:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
“All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Erol and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.”
________________________________________
5) Is this perhaps a surprising speech for a man of Tolkien’s time and outlook to write ?
By accounts he was quite sympathetic to the difficulties suffered by female students not being taken seriously by the other professors at Oxford, by female writers having difficulties getting published, and by young Edith’s career roadblock of “Old Lady” Faulkener forbidding her from teaching piano out of the boardinghouse.
Is there anything else like it in his works?
Luthien, “Man-Maiden” Galadriel, the “renowned Amazon” and chieftainess Haleth with her picked bodyguard of women, Emeldir the Manhearted who led an army of armed women to the aid of her husband Barahir and son Beren, the many fair and valiant women of Eorl named in the songs of Rohan, all those hobbit lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures (possibly including the fabulous Belladonna Took and her remarkable sisters), and of course Tauriel.
6) How do you think her people really see Eowyn: as no more than a handy housekeeper, as she suggests here?
I think the more traditional Rohirrim (like say, fellow Eastfolder Elfhelm) take her seriously while the more Gondorized Rohirrim (like say, Theoden’s court at Edoras) think she ought to stick to women’s work when she grows up.
7) Does Aragorn handle this conversation well or badly?
Yes. There’s really no way he can win. Probably should have run and hid before the conversation even started.
Did he mean to lecture Eowyn on duty, and anyway does he have any right to do so?
This is the guy whose foster father reforged for him the sword of the king of Gondor, whose fiancé wove him the standard of the king of Gondor, who set off with the son of the Steward of Gondor, all with the expectation that he’d actually do his duty as heir to the throne of Gondor by actually going to Gondor, yet he ends up running off on a wild hobbit chase to Fanghorn, fighting a battle at Helm’s Deep, hanging out at a pipeweed session at Orthanc, attending a drinking party at Edoras, going on a spooky fun ride through the Dwimorbergi, popping out of nowhere to prank some pirates at Pelargir, and freeing a bunch of random guys he never met, all while Denethor the Mad, possibly Traitorous, and definitely Defeatist, Steward of Gondor is driving the armies and defenses of Gondor into the ground.
Yep, that’s definitely psychological projection.
Could/should Aragorn have done more to help Eowyn?
Be less Yoda and more Qui-Gon.
Or at least a little Ben Kenobi: “You must do what you feel is right, of course.”
8) Is there something significant about the abrupt end of this conversation?
He realizes the longer he tries to explain the longer Eowyn will keep hoping.
Kinder to kill hope quickly rather than let it linger.
In the morning, Eowyn makes one last-ditch effort to persuade Aragorn: but now she does not try to persuade him to stay and march with Theoden, she wants him to let her come along. She advances no new arguments, just her intense personal need, and she addresses Aragorn as thee/thou, whilst he replies with the formal ‘you/Lady’.
9) Does this choice of pronouns affect how you see Eowyn and Aragorn in this moment? What does it tell us about them?
“Thee” and “thou” are pronouns indicating intimacy and familiarity. Basically think New Jersey “youse” or Texas “y’all”. (Or it can possibly show disrespect, which would indicate how really ticked off Eowyn is.) Interestingly,” thee” and “thou” are also used when talking to God, which would give a very interesting take on the conversation.
“You” and “lady” are more formal, indicating Aragorn trying to keep Eowyn at arm’s length. (Technically “ye” would be the formal version of “thee”, which of course Tolkien would know, but probably didn't use because otherwise he'd have to use it everywhere else in the book.)
More generally, what is the effect on you as a reader of this final section of the Eowyn/Aragorn meeting?
Oddly enough, to modern ears “thee” and “thou” tend to indicate formality and solemnity (which no doubt Tolkien was also well aware), so a reader might see this as the opposite: Eowyn trying to convince Aragorn by being formal while Aragorn tries to dissuade her with familiarity.
10) Who else has addressed Aragorn as ‘thee’ in this chapter,..
Arwen in her message to Aragorn..
… and does that earlier speaker affect your reading of this current passage?
Kinda shows Eowyn as the Other Woman wannabe.
BTW, Aragorn does eventually address Eowyn as “thee”:
And he answered: 'I have wished thee joy ever since first I saw thee. It heals my heart to see thee now in bliss.'
-Many Partings
As for “thee” being a sign of disrespect, see how Denethor keeps using “thee” when talking to Gandalf, or when The Mouth of Sauron addresses the captains of the West, or when the Witch King threatens Eowyn.
11) Why does Eowyn want to go with Aragorn, if she regards his journey as a probably suicidal mistake, and would prefer him to wait and ride to battle with Theoden?
She knows he’s going anyway. A person head over heels in love usually succumbs to their loved one’s folly. That’s why significant others sometimes get piercings in strange places and co-sign bad loans.
12) How does Aragorn’s series of conversations about hope and duty with Eowyn here compare or contrast with his deathbed conversation with Awen 120 years later (ROTK Appendix A)?
I still wonder after living together all those years Elessar seems to have sprung this on Arwen right at the last minute. He apparently never learned to talk to females and even studiously avoided it:
“Dear, we really need to sit down and talk about our retirement investments and living wills.”
“Goodness! Look at the time! Gotta go mow the lawn, mulch the leaves, and fight the Southrons. Keep that thought for when I get back!”
Also interesting:
But Eowyn stood still as a figure carven in stone, her hands clenched at her sides, and she watched them until they passed into the shadows under the black Dwimorberg, the Haunted Mountain, in which was the Gate of the Dead. When they were lost to view, she turned, stumbling as one that is blind, and went back to her lodging.
And:
But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star.
13) Does the meeting with Aragorn precipitate Eowyn’s decision to disguise herself as Dernhelm and ride to war?
I think it precipitates the desperation that leads to that.
Or had she pretty much decided to do something like that already, in your opinion?
I’d suppose she could have done it to blend in with the Dunedain. I mean, they’re all grey and grim, just like her mood.
Is there anything else you’d like to say about Eowyn as we have seen her so far, and before she unexpectedly turns up on the battlefield?
Really, leaving an abusive situation is one of the hardest things a person can do. Preparation, encouragement, desperation, danger, decision, all can be part of the impetus, but in the end the abused simply has to just *go*.
Which Eowyn does.
And good for her!
******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 20 2016, 8:06pm
Post #60 of 65
(624 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Perhaps Theoden is also operating the "An heir and a spare" policy?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
he has a fine disregard for his own safety now that he's meeting his fate: that's heroic in the old Northern tradition. And perhaps he feels he's seen the very worst in his Wormtongue-induced illness and so he's no longer afraid of anything.
Eomer is gagging for a glorious fight and is anyway the next King. So I think its impossible to leave him behind: in such a military-heroic culture how could a man who stayed at home possibly rule men who went out to save Gondor? So it's "Westminster Abbey or Glorious Victory" (as Horatio Nelson put it) for the two of them.
But maybe Theoden also thinks about his dynasty. If he and Eomer die in a glorious but bloody victory, Eowyn is the last of the Hose of Eorl. So maybe he not only relies upon her to keep the Home Front calm, but to carry on the lineage if the war is a success but neither he nor Eomer comes back.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 20 2016, 8:50pm
Post #61 of 65
(621 views)
Shortcut
|
Yeah, I always figured the young Eastfolder maiden Eowyn was supposed to stay behind and marry the old Westfolder warhorse Erkenbrand and so provide a sense of hope, unity, and security for the people of Rohan.
So I can see where the prospect of going from being the nurse of a grizzled old man and emptying his bedpans to being the wife of one and providing his heirs would be more than enough to send Eowyn screaming down the Paths of the Dead, onto the Fields of Pelennor, or into Mordor itself.
I'm sure Erkenbrand was a nice enough guy, but us old men tend to be all wrinkly, have hair in weird places, and smell funky.
******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 20 2016, 8:54pm)
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 21 2016, 9:04am
Post #62 of 65
(608 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Lobelia Sackville-Baggins as Eowyn's complement ? (note spelling)
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The men who do wrong are not complete figures but complements: Saruman is Gandalf's dark-self, Boromir Aragorn's; Wormtongue is, almost literally the weakness of King Theoden. There remains the wonderfully repulsive and degraded Gollum. But nobody who reads the trilogy hates, or is asked to hate, Gollum. Gollum is Frodo's shadow; and it is the shadow, not the hero, who achieves the quest. Though Tolkien seems to project evil into "the others", they are not truly others but ourselves; he is utterly clear about this.
Ursula K LeGuin in a review, entitled "The Dark Tower by C S Lewis" (it was originally published in The New Republic, 1977, and is anthologised in "Dancing at the Edge of the World" (Grove Press 1989) )
I was just musing about whether Eowyn has a complement and if so who it would be. Maybe it's Lobelia Sackville-Baggins - never ran away on an adventure; stuck by the rules and waited increasingly bitterly for life to bring her what she wanted?
...Before, unexpectedly, finding satisfaction in becoming a hero of La Resistance!
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
|
|
|
enanito
Rohan
Apr 21 2016, 1:39pm
Post #63 of 65
(609 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Aragorn denies that he seeks peril needlessly...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Paraphrasing Sir Galahad and Sir Lancelot's conversation...
Eowyn: You were in terrible peril
Aragorn: Look, let me go back in there and face the peril
Eowyn: No, it's too perilous
Aragorn: Look, it's my duty as a knight to sample as much peril as I can
...
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 22 2016, 7:02am
Post #64 of 65
(586 views)
Shortcut
|
"I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess."
Duct tape will always make me think of The Red Green Show. Seeking out an appropriate clip from that show on Youtube led me instead to a montage of jokes from the "Possum Lodge Word Game", a regular segment on the show during its fifteen-year run (1991-2006). I offer this moment without further comment.
Turning away from wacky animated characters, what about your questions:
BUT, just as a self-indulgence, if Aragorn had the premonition that Eowyn had to take her own equivalent to the Path of The Dead--through psychological rather than literal darkness--he might feel it best to say naught. Sadly, she is spurred into action by feeling abandoned, unappreciated and overlooked, and telling her she's the subject of a prophecy might spoil that. "Those three little words that men find so difficult to say . . ." Maybe telling her might send her on the same journey in some different and perhaps more dangerous way! Appointment in Pelennor?
Should anyone want a further serious question, then, how about "Aragorn's literal journey through the darkness and fear of the Paths of the Dead parallels Eowyn's psychological journey through rejection and despair. Discuss." "Quando omni flunkus moritati." I guess both of them play possum, in a way.
(Clearly Aragorn could also say something prophetic but seriously confusing: "But I say to you, Eowyn, that we may yet meet again, with you in bed next to your future husband." Accurate, but not exactly helpful at the present juncture! "Mr. Bruckman, there are hits, and there are misses. And then there are misses." Wait a minute, I changed channels!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
Meneldor
Valinor
Apr 22 2016, 3:26pm
Post #65 of 65
(565 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Wormtongue: Eowyn, if you don't find me handsome,
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I hope you at least find me handy.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
|
|
|
|
|
Well now, THAT explains a lot. //
[
