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Omnigeek
Lorien
Apr 10 2016, 6:32pm
Post #26 of 108
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The strategic value lay in Smaug's threat
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In the ROTK Appendices, Gandalf told Merry and Pippin that one of his concerns before the quest was in the threat Smaug posed to Rivendell and Lothlorien. It's not that Sauron wanted to link up forces from Angmar with Smaug, it's that Smaug's threat to Lothlorien and Rivendell would diminish the help they could send to Gondor and Rohan. Even if they had succeeded in fighting Sauron, imagine Aragorn starting a Fourth Age after Smaug had ravaged Imladris and killed Arwen.
Being able to use the orcs of the Misty Mountains to supplement his own forces would have been additional gravy for Sauron. The White Council driving Sauron from Dol Guldur kept Sauron's plans from advancing as fast as they might but really didn't do anything to Smaug's strategic value. If anything, losing a presence at Dol Guldur increased the value of Erebor and Smaug's threat to Imladris and Lothlorien.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 10 2016, 6:39pm
Post #27 of 108
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As you say, even from Mordor Sauron could have forged an alliance with the dragon as long as Smaug was still in Erebor. Removing the dragon from the Mountain was crucial to Gandalf's plans to secure the North.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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wizzardly
Rohan
Apr 10 2016, 6:52pm
Post #28 of 108
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He's also about over-the-top action, excessive cgi, and cinematic spectacle over meaningful stories. His Hobbit movies were not made by someone who has respect for the book as it was written. It was made by someone who thought it would do as a decent foundation, but it needed his "special" handling to make it perfect. The amount of changes in this adaptation is not only an insult to those who have grown up loving this story as it was written, it also changes the spirit and philosophy of the story to something other than what the author intended.
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Apr 10 2016, 7:10pm
Post #29 of 108
(854 views)
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The amount of changes in this adaptation is not only an insult to those who have grown up loving this story as it was written, it also changes the spirit and philosophy of the story to something other than what the author intended. Why are you here? If you feel so insulted by PJ hobbit trilogy why are then on the hobbit movie forum? Only so you can insult PJ? If you don't like them, then don't watch them. It is not like PJ is forcing you to watch it.
Plus I love the hobbit book ( the best Tolken book, in my opinion), but I am not insulted by the changes, because I know that films and books are different. There are things that works in the book but does not work in films. Are there changes I don't like, yes but I don't feel insulted by it, and I do not insult PJ only because I don't like it.
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Apr 10 2016, 7:17pm
Post #30 of 108
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Obviously, the potential power of Smaug as a weapon was important, but that had nothing to do with the specific location of Erebor. The threat was Sauron getting Smaug to leave the mountain and go cause trouble elsewhere in the North.
Erebor is not particularly close to Angmar. The eastern borders of Angmar are not particularly relevant since that area was depopulated by the Eotheod, and in any event even before the Eotheod's arrival, the main strength of Angmar was to the west of the Misty Mountains. Jackson, by making the orcs of the Misty Mountains apparently subservient to Azog and by extension to Dol Guldur, undermines the whole "strategic position" nonsense even more. Sauron already has a base from which to assault Rivendell or reoccupy Angmar right on the doorstep of those regions, not 200+ miles to the east!
I am aware that Tolkien had Sauron driven from Dol Guldur before the BOFA in the books, as well. That's not relevant to my point because Tolkien never tried to present the Quest of Erebor as being more important than what the White Council was getting up to. Jackson did.
There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...
(This post was edited by Eldorion on Apr 10 2016, 7:19pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 10 2016, 7:35pm
Post #31 of 108
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Obviously, the potential power of Smaug as a weapon was important, but that had nothing to do with the specific location of Erebor. The threat was Sauron getting Smaug to leave the mountain and go cause trouble elsewhere in the North.
It had to do with Erebor in the sense that that was where Smaug was located. And Gundabad was also associated with Angmar. Erebor could have provided access to Gundabad (and Angmar which Sauron wanted to rebuild) through a route that did not have to pass through the Vales of the Anduin and the folk who lived there. One can't have too many secure strongholds as long as one can support them. Through the Lonely Mountain Sauron would possess a stronghold in the North between the lands of Rhûn and Gundabad. Dol Guldur, by contrast, was ideally located for attacking Lórien the Vales and perhaps Rohan as well as harassing Thranduil's folk.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 10 2016, 7:36pm)
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wizzardly
Rohan
Apr 10 2016, 7:38pm
Post #32 of 108
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I'm criticizing his movies which are loosely based on a book by J.R.R. Tolkien, on a website that is according to the tagline, "Forged by and for fans of JRR Tolkien". I'm a fan of Tolkien, so that's why I'm here.
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Apr 10 2016, 7:49pm
Post #33 of 108
(820 views)
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In my opinion this
He's also about over-the-top action, excessive cgi, and cinematic spectacle over meaningful stories. His Hobbit movies were not made by someone who has respect for the book as it was written. It was made by someone who thought it would do as a decent foundation, but it needed his "special" handling to make it perfect. The amount of changes in this adaptation is not only an insult to those who have grown up loving this story as it was written, it also changes the spirit and philosophy of the story to something other than what the author intended. feels more like you are insulting him then criticizing him, especially the bit where you are claiming that he has no respect for the book witch is not true.
I'm a fan of Tolkien, so that's why I'm here. Then way only on the hobbit movie forum and not reading room, main forum? The majority of your post is just about how much you hate the hobbit trilogy.
on a website that is according to the tagline, "Forged by and for fans of JRR Tolkien" Well this website would not exist if it wasn't for PJ.
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Apr 10 2016, 8:04pm
Post #34 of 108
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What folk in the Vales of Anduin?
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The Beornings? In the movie-verse, they don't exist anymore? The Wood-men? We see and hear zero evidence of them. And even if they did, Sauron controls the mountains, so he could send raiding parties down to harass and potentially drive away any remnants in the Vales. There's nothing suggesting that Dol Guldur and Gundabad are separated by any opponents in the movies, and quite a bit to suggest they are not (including Azog and co's open movements in the Vales).
On the contrary, to get from Erebor to Gundabad, you have to pass dangerously close to Thranduil's realm. Plus the effort involved to move soldiers and supplies from DG to Erebor and then from there to Gundabad would be vastly greater (and involve longer distances) then the effort it would take to sweep away whatever token resistance is left in the Vales (which appears to be limited to Beorn himself in the movie-verse).
Moreover, Sauron already controls Gundabad in the movie and is able to send orders (and presumably messengers) back and forth from there, so the idea that he hasn't already secured supply lines to and from it strikes me as very shaky.
As for Erebor being important because that's where Smaug was ... that doesn't give the Mountain itself a strategic position.
There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...
(This post was edited by Eldorion on Apr 10 2016, 8:08pm)
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wizzardly
Rohan
Apr 10 2016, 8:21pm
Post #35 of 108
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I'm only pointing out that for whatever reasons, pj has decided to stray wildly away from what was written, and I see that as disrespectful to the author. I don't insult PJ on a personal level. The truth is I think he is a great movie maker, but his decisions on these movies were difficult to accept.
As far as why do I only post about the Hobbit movies? Why not? I might post elsewhere on other topics.
But you might be correct about the website, it was originally created to discuss PJ's movies...so maybe the tagline should instead read "Forged by and for fans of Peter Jackson's adaptations of stories by J.R.R. Tolkien".
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Apr 10 2016, 8:22pm
Post #36 of 108
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The original image was big so I'm gonna just link to it:
http://i.imgur.com/9K1ySXu.jpg
Some things to keep in mind about the military situation during The Hobbit film trilogy:
1. Sauron's main enemies here are Rivendell and Lórien. They're the stronger realms, have more important and powerful rulers, and are involved with the White Council. Thranduil's realm, without even getting into a Silvan vs Eldar comparison, was isolationist and not an active threat to Sauron.
2. Sauron already has Rivendell and Lórien outflanked due to his control of the orcs of the Misty Mountains, as commanded by Azog and Bolg.
3. The Lonely Mountain is not only hundreds of miles east of Sauron's main enemies, it is located between an elf realm and a dwarf realm who are both currently isolationist and also incredibly pissed at each other. Sauron has every reason to want to keep them that way instead of adding them to his list of enemies while he's still preoccupied with Rivendell and Lórien.
4. The most significant military characteristic of Erebor is Smaug, who is inherently mobile and could be used to wreak havoc on Sauron's enemies to the west without fighting any battles in the east. It's not like anyone is in a position to stop Smaug from leaving the Mountain, or from returning to it after helping out in the west, especially not if Sauron is victorious in the Vales of Anduin.
There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Apr 10 2016, 8:25pm
Post #37 of 108
(786 views)
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The Beornings? In the movie-verse, they don't exist anymore? The Wood-men? We see and hear zero evidence of them. And even if they did, Sauron controls the mountains, so he could send raiding parties down to harass and potentially drive away any remnants in the Vales. There's nothing suggesting that Dol Guldur and Gundabad are separated by any opponents in the movies, and quite a bit to suggest they are not (including Azog and co's open movements in the Vales).
On the contrary, to get from Erebor to Gundabad, you have to pass dangerously close to Thranduil's realm. Plus the effort involved to move soldiers and supplies from DG to Erebor and then from there to Gundabad would be vastly greater (and involve longer distances) then the effort it would take to sweep away whatever token resistance is left in the Vales (which appears to be limited to Beorn himself in the movie-verse).
Moreover, Sauron already controls Gundabad in the movie and is able to send orders (and presumably messengers) back and forth from there, so the idea that he hasn't already secured supply lines to and from it strikes me as very shaky.
As for Erebor being important because that's where Smaug was ... that doesn't give the Mountain itself a strategic position. If Thorin and company take back Erebor and Bard rebuild Dale more people would come to live there, that is why the mountain is important. Sauron had the mountain when Smaug lived there but when he heard the news that Thorin and company was going and take back the mountain, he sent out Azog to kill them but it did not work so he sent his army to the mountain to protect it from the dwarves. Then Smaug is dead, the dwarves have taken the mountain and if more dwarves would come it would be a threat against Sauron so it is important to take it back.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 10 2016, 8:45pm
Post #39 of 108
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Who sez the Beornings don't exist? They were never Beorn's original kin. They were Men who adopted him as their chieftain in the years following the Battle of Five Armies. There is nothing preventing them from doing this in the film-universe. And just because we don't encounter any Woodmen in the films doesn't mean that they are not there. Thorin and Company never met any of them in the book either. Other Men of the Anduin Vales were of the same Éothéod stock as the Rohirrim. WE know that Woodmen inhabited the region because Gandalf referenced them at the White Council ("The Woodmen say...").
On the contrary, to get from Erebor to Gundabad, you have to pass dangerously close to Thranduil's realm.
Yes, Thranduil the isolationist. And that assumes that there are no passes that allow troops to cross to the northern side of the mountains and then to Gundabad.
Plus the effort involved to move soldiers and supplies from DG to Erebor and then from there to Gundabad would be vastly greater (and involve longer distances) then the effort it would take to sweep away whatever token resistance is left in the Vales (which appears to be limited to Beorn himself in the movie-verse).
Then don't . Import soldiers and supplies from Rhûn and Mordor instead. Again, just because we only meet Beorn does not mean that he is anything close to the only Man in the region. We only ever see one, miniscule portion of the Vales.
Moreover, Sauron already controls Gundabad in the movie and is able to send orders (and presumably messengers) back and forth from there, so the idea that he hasn't already secured supply lines to and from it strikes me as very shaky.
Supply lines can always be strengthened, but whatever support Gundabad had did not seem to be having an impact upon Lake-town, the Woodland Realm, the Iron Hills or Beorn.
As for Erebor being important because that's where Smaug was ... that doesn't give the Mountain itself a strategic position.
No, it doesn't; that is why I gave other reasons. Strategically, though, a Dwarf-occupied Erebor is more important to the Free Peoples of the North than to Sauron. It is still to his advantage to deny it to them.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 10 2016, 8:50pm)
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Apr 10 2016, 8:47pm
Post #40 of 108
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Thorin was already being hunted before he'd even thought about the idea of going on the Quest. He maybe was hunted before the quest but he was more hunted during the quest. Plus you have Gandalf's line The dwarves was never meant to reach Erebor. Azog the Defiler was scent to kill them witch means that Azog was doing it on Sauron order now.
He was also mustering an army and sent it towards Erebor before Smaug died, when he had no reason to think Smaug would be killed. Because the dwarves was on there why so Sauron is sending his army to Erebor to help Smaug defend Erebor.
There was no reason for anyone to expect that Thorin and Co. would be successful in their quest (and in fact, no character who opines on this topic in the films does think they will). Well you can never be to careful, safer to have a dragon and an army then just the dragon.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 10 2016, 9:01pm
Post #43 of 108
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Your map is a bit deceptive. Sauron does not have direct control of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains either in Goblin Town or Moria--at least not yet at the time of the Quest of Erebor. And the strength of the Lonely Mountain is in defense of the North if Smaug is removed and friendly relations can be re-established between the folk of the region. It is more important to Sauron to deny it to Durin's Folk than to have it for himself--not that it can't be useful.
Sauron is unlikely to be able to make use of Smaug unless he can also secure Smaug's lair. Otherwise the dragon might not be willing to leave his treasure unguarded for any length of time. He would at least need to keep a garrison at Erebor for that purpose (and woe to any Orcs who attempt to steal from Smaug).
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 10 2016, 9:20pm
Post #45 of 108
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There is still a lot of open land in the Vales and even Tolkien indicates that they are sparsely populated. Easy enough for Orcish wolfriders to make their way about. If any locals hear the Wargs howling their response is probably to run inside and bolt the doors.
As for the Woodland Realm, don't enter the woods. Tolkien also wrote that much of the Grey Mountains was riddled with tunnels. Even so, there is plenty of room between the range and the Forest.
If Gundabad is already sufficiently manned with Orcs from the mountains (Grey and/or Misty) then why did you bring up importing troops at all? You brought up that issue first; I only expanded on it. The Orcs should be able to obtain iron and other needed ores from the Grey Mountains (possibly with the help of slave-labor). And, if large numbers of soldiers were passing through the Vales from the south then both Radagast and Beorn would have certainly been aware of it. Therefore, that was not happening.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Apr 10 2016, 9:27pm
Post #46 of 108
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Plenty of strategic reasons in both books and movies
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From a strategic standpoint, simply having Smaug in Erebor effectively neutralized and isolated Lothlorien and Imladris from the struggle in the East. Even without controlling or coordinating with Smaug, his ability to roam and devastate the areas around Erebor had huge strategic value for Sauron. The same principle (albeit not with the power to devastate) held for the Misty Mountain orcs. That holds true in both the book and the movies, with or without Beornings near the Misty Mountains, with or without an anachronistic Azog pursuing the descendants of Thror. PJ's making Beorn the last of his kind rather than the chieftain of them doesn't affect that situation either.
Gandalf knew he would want the assistance and power of both Lothlorien and Imladris in the coming war against The Enemy so he was interested in getting rid of Smaug and reinstating the Dwarves in Erebor. It doesn't mean he used the dwarves callously (they were using him as well). If he's planning that far ahead, he has to think The Enemy is doing so as well and might be taking steps to keep Gandalf from getting rid of Smaug. He doesn't need confirmation of that to plan.
The whole thing with Azog made no sense anyway so I'm not going to bother trying to rationalize Azog being called away from his hunt other than to say Sauron probably didn't much care about a displaced Dwarven prince or his 12 companions. At a strategic level, he had a lot bigger fish to fry.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 10 2016, 9:30pm
Post #47 of 108
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..we see the same kind of goblins both Goblin-town and in Sauron's army at the Battle of the Five Armies (while not seeing them in Dol Guldur or elsewhere), so I believe it is a very grounded bit of speculation.
Yes, they are described as goblin mercenaries, implying that Sauron has not established a firm control over them yet. Actually it might have been a good idea to have Azog (or Bolg) step in and seize control of the goblins of Goblin Town following the death of their leader. Ah well, a wasted opportunity.
I agree that Smaug has either already been in contact with a servant of Sauron or is supernaturally prescient of other events taking place in the region. Some special sense seems to alert him to the presence and power of the Ring even if he doesn't quite know exactly what Bilbo possesses.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 10 2016, 9:43pm
Post #48 of 108
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Plenty of strategic reasons in both books and movies
Yes, but Eldorion is correct that some of those reasons ring a bit hollow in light of Sauron's control of both Dol Guldur and Gundabad. At the same time, there are others that I don't think he gave sufficient weight to, including the ones you point out. Denying a resource to your enemy can be more valuable than having it for yourself, especially if it is under the control of an ally.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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