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Laurelindo
The Shire
Apr 9 2016, 5:13pm
Post #1 of 15
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How powerful were the Vanyar compared to the Noldor?
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I have always found the Vanyar to be a fairly interesting race, because of their mysterious and reclusive nature.
But I have also found them fascinating because they seem to be such a beautiful and peaceful race, and the thought of them actually taking part in a great war is pretty strange.
But The Silmarillion seems to imply that the Vanyar were a worthy addition in the War Of Wrath, and they are even sometimes called "spear-Elves" because of their love of spears, so these things seem to indicate that they at least had some skill in warfare - but how skilled do you think they were?
They were probably not quite as skilled as the Noldor, but maybe they were more skilled than the Teleri?
After all, it seems that the Teleri is the only race that Melkor considered "too weak for his designs", which sort of implies that the Vanyar were quite powerful.
This is the only image that I can find where the Vanyar are actually fighting a war (which of course is the War Of Wrath), and they seem to be quite fierce:
http://www.image-share.com/upload/3211/151.jpg
(This post was edited by Laurelindo on Apr 9 2016, 5:20pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 10 2016, 9:54am
Post #2 of 15
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I think you've probably found the best answer the text can give.
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If you are literally hoping to come up with a sort of ranking system for different elves then I think that in your "They were probably not quite as skilled as the Noldor, but maybe they were more skilled than the Teleri " you have reached a conclusion that can be supported by the text, and that is probably as far as you can go by close reading. So I think you're doing the right thing to investigate this, but remember that Tolkien tends not to assign 'Power Levels' or use similar mechanistic ways of assessing these things. This means that folks who would like things quantified (designing a Middle-earth themed game, for example, or simply like to think about these things in this way) are left with a lot of original work to do.
Yes, we mostly hear about the Noldor, and the elves that stayed in Middle-earth, don't we. I suppose that is because, once the other elves have settled in paradise that's all very nice for them, but not worth much as a tale.It's a much better story when someone rebels against the gods, swears an oath that is so potent it is almost a character in the story, and then starts a series of doomed wars. The doomed wars end only when the Valar finally intervene - proving that they had adequate military or other power to force an outcome if they wished, but had hitherto chosen not to use it (perhaps because of the mess it would cause).
Are the Vanyar Surprisingly good on the battlefield? I suppose there's a difference between being peaceful (don't get into a fight unless it can't be helped) and being good at fighting. The Vanyar and the others quite literally have all the time in the world to fill - if martial arts are a popular pursuit, then they might be very battle-ready if called upon. Another theory (and of course it's what used to be called a UUT round here- an 'utterly unstable theory' ) is that everyone gets a massive combat bonus when under the Valar's righteous banner.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Apr 10 2016, 5:18pm
Post #3 of 15
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The strength and power of Elves in The Silmarillion...
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...seems directly proportional to how much time they spent in Valinor, and especially in the light of the Two Trees. The Teleri lived on the far side of the Pelóri; this may be part of the reason why they were seen as weaker. The Noldor lived right in the Calacirya (literally "cleft of light") and were more powerful, especially before "the light of Aman was ... dimmed in their eyes" (TS, Of the Return of the Noldor).
The Vanyar, who were especially close to Manwë, lived fully within Valinor proper, in "the full light of the Trees" while those lasted (TS, Of Eldamar). According to the general principle, this would seem to make them the primary beneficiaries of the Trees/Valinor's general power-increasing abilities. Of course, Tolkien was not so crass as to discuss this in RPG-esque terms and it's impossible to quantify, but I would imagine that even with the Trees having been destroyed, the Vanyar who had stayed in Valinor were retained a greater part of that potency than the Noldor who had left to go into Exile, and especially more than the Noldor who were born in Exile.
There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...
(This post was edited by Eldorion on Apr 10 2016, 5:19pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 10 2016, 6:09pm
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The Vanyar were the tallest and most beautiful of the Eldar. Their hair was golden and their eyes blue or violet. They were the first Elves to arrive in Aman and dwelled there forever more, only briefly returning to Middle-earth to take part in the War of Wrath. The Vanyar were so spiritually powerful that they shown with their own inner light.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Apr 10 2016, 6:36pm
Post #5 of 15
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I believe it's an "Utterly Unsupported theory. The term was coined shortly before I joined TORn (2003) by Reverend, a much-beloved regular in the Reading Room until his untimely death in July 2003.
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 10 2016, 6:58pm
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Curious, another long-time RR regular who's lately gone missing (though not as finally as his friend and rival Reverend), said that UUT stood for "Utterly Unproveable Theory".
As a lawyer, the big C took a somewhat litigious approach to things. He felt that either one could prove ones thoughts about a Tolkien issue, or one couldn't - which led at times to some rather tedious back-and-forths. On the one hand, of course, he had a point; 'Unsupportable' says there is no evidence at all to "support" a fan theory, and that's almost never the case. On the other hand his 'Unproveable' term suggests that there must be some standard of textual evidence that would constitute proof about Tolkien's intentions, and that's also almost never the case.
UUTs are the glory and the bane of our discussions, of course.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 10 2016, 9:01pm
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Our TORN Dictionary references both.
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http://newboards.theonering.net/...;;page=unread#unread
:)
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 11 2016, 8:52pm
Post #11 of 15
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Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 12 2016, 12:04am
Post #12 of 15
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"UUT" sounds like a medical condition you don't want people to know you have. //
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PhantomS
Rohan
Apr 12 2016, 3:01am
Post #14 of 15
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The Vanyar strike me as being similar to angelic hosts - rarely coming to Earth but wreaking havoc when they do. Tolkien does tend to emphasize how powerful armies and people are by nature; the Numenoreans, the Vanyar, the Noldor, the armies of Gondor etc seem to just show up and win the day. Sauron himself is said to be able to overcome Lothlorien's defenses if he himself arrived.
Their powers are strength both in numbers and 'spiritual powers'. Hanging out alongside Manwe, Tulkas, Orome and Ulmo would certainly have taught them a thing or two
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Laurelindo
The Shire
Apr 12 2016, 11:47am
Post #15 of 15
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The Vanyar strike me as being similar to angelic hosts - rarely coming to Earth but wreaking havoc when they do. Tolkien does tend to emphasize how powerful armies and people are by nature; the Numenoreans, the Vanyar, the Noldor, the armies of Gondor etc seem to just show up and win the day. Sauron himself is said to be able to overcome Lothlorien's defenses if he himself arrived.
Their powers are strength both in numbers and 'spiritual powers'. Hanging out alongside Manwe, Tulkas, Orome and Ulmo would certainly have taught them a thing or two That's absolutely true, it seems that the two Trees had a very nurturing effect on living things in many ways, so it seems likely that the Vanyar would grow powerful since they were always in the presence of this light.
It also seems logical to me that the Vanyar would take an interest in self-defense and warfare if they realized that their own realm could potentially be attacked.
One thing that I find quite fascinating about some Elves is that some of them really don't seem to fit the classical image of Elves.
One common view of Tolkien's Elves is that they are these merry and thoughtful, wise angelic peaceful people with beautiful voices - you know, kind of like Gildor's people in "Fellowship Of The Ring" - but some Elves certainly don't express this kind of angelic character.
I mean, can you imagine rough and somewhat creepy Elves like Caranthir and Eöl joining Gildor's company and being one of the wise, laughing beautiful people?
I certainly cannot.
I can imagine traditionally "beautiful" Elves like Legolas, Arwen, Celeborn and Galadriel to be among them, however, but certainly not the more aggressive, haughty and overproud Elves.
(This post was edited by Laurelindo on Apr 12 2016, 11:48am)
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I think I'll now insist...
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