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How exactly were the Elven realms protected from evil creatures?

Laurelindo
The Shire

Apr 9 2016, 5:50am

Post #1 of 8 (726 views)
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How exactly were the Elven realms protected from evil creatures? Can't Post

Tolkien mentions several times that realms like Rivendell and Lothlórien were protected from evil things - but just exactly how were they protected?
What would happen if some evil creature ended up heading perfectly straight towards one of these realms?
I believe that this is specified at some point in some of his books, but I cannot remember any details.

My understanding is that any evil creature that tried entering the Elven realms would inevitably get lost, and keep walking in circles at a safe distance from the realms - kind of like when Bilbo and the dwarves hopelessly tried to find the lost path in Mirkwood.
This would no doubt be safe enough for land creatures - but what would happen if the creatures entered from the sky?
Wouldn't they be able to see the realms then, and head straight for them?
What would stop them in this situation?
Or maybe the realms were blocked by trees, so that this, through the help of some Elven magic, made them impossible to notice in the first place?


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Apr 9 2016, 8:29am

Post #2 of 8 (712 views)
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Exactly? We don't know. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien was very vague about how anything worked. The impression he gives is that Elven "magic" really is a consequence of their deeper understanding of nature and how it works, just as much of what we do in the 21st Century would seem like magic to someone from centuries ago.

But I think your impression is correct: paths simply do not lead to lands that are under the protection of the Elven Rings, unless the inhabitants want them to. Bilbo and Frodo (& co.) were guided to Rivendell, and the Fellowship was expected at Lorien. Even from the air (by Air Eagle?) these lands wouldn't be findable unless their protectors wanted them to be.

A good example may be the nature of the Old Forest, which had its ways of protecting itself from Frodo and the hobbits by making paths appear and disappear and lead in directions not intended by the travelers.








noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 9 2016, 9:09am

Post #3 of 8 (714 views)
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Shorter answer - 'we don't know'! But the Longer answer is interetsing too, I hope. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Laurelindo and welcome to the Reading Room. You've started out with a good question! (Edit - just realised you have had two simultaneous, similar answers, as Elizabeth posted while I was writing :) )

My answer in brief is 'we don't know'. Tolkien is very rarely clear about how 'exactly' anything magical works. I've come to see this as a a deliberate feature of his storytelling: we pretty much only see and understand what the hobbits see and understand. They don't ask for detailed technical explanations, and sometimes their enquiries lead to confusion (as when Pippin asks whether the elven cloaks are 'magical')

What we do infer is that the Lorien elves seem to think that the Hobbit's are amusingly rustic to think there's a clear-cut distinction between magic and craft. Whether the elven cloaks are 'magic' or are 'just' so well made as to seem magical to cruder folk is left unresolved. This raises the possibility that elven realms are protected in part by camouflage techniques that are so advanced that they appear to be magical.

That doesn't seem to explain everything though, but Tolkien reveals no more, and it is to Tolkien’s Letters that we have to turn for further details. There is information in Letter 131, but even more so in Letter 155. Letter 155, written in 1954, is an unsent draft to author & poet Naomi Mitchison, who was also a proof-reader for Lord of the Rings. The whole of the letter explains Tolkien’s ideas on magic, and so I will paraphrase and summarize rather than quote it in its entirety.

Tolkien begins “I am afraid I have been far too casual about ‘magic’ and especially the use of the word”. But “a story which, as you so rightly say, is largely about motives (choice, temptations etc.) and the intentions for using whatever is found in the world, could hardly be burdened with a pseudo-philisophic disquisition!” For the purposes of the tale, he goes on to explain there are perhaps two kinds of magic: ‘magia’ produces real effects in the physical world (such as Gandalf’s igniting wet wood); ‘goeteia’ (as I read Tolkien’s comments) seems to be more about illusion. Neither is morally good or bad (in this tale) per se - it depends upon the motive or purpose of use. The Enemy tends to use “magia...to bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and subjugate”. Those are supremely bad motives in a tale that is specifically about domination of other ‘free’ wills. The elves’ goeteia, by contrast is intended as Art - it deceives only accidentally (like someone mistaking a statue for a real person). [The hiding of the elven realms would seem to contradict this statement, come to think of it - that's clearly a deliberate deception] Magic is, in any form, a rarity - both sides live mostly by “normal means”. [Interpreting here, I think this is because the Enemy likes to accumulate and use non-magical power, and an important theme of the story is that the Wise should not try to match the Enemy power for power. Also, we see from Gandalf igniting wet wood and blocking doors magically that the effort and consequences of using magic rather than 'normal means' makes it worthwhile only to use magic in emergencies ]

So that supports your idea that the realms are protected by illusion (they magically appear not to be there.) Another possibility, based on how Saruman's magic seems to work, is that there could be an effect on the would-be visitor's will (e.g. they are unconsciously influenced to turn back or go the wrong way).

Personally, I suppose that these techniques might be just as effective on airborne visitors (but this is entirely speculation, of course).

We also know that these defences aren't foolproof - Black Riders follow Frodo to the Ford, and orcs follow the Fellowship into Lorien.

Not a straight answer to your question, I fear: but I hope it's of some help and interest.


[If, by the way, you are interested in the general problems facing fantasy authors when they devise magic systems, I thoroughly recommend a couple of essays by Brandon Sanderson: http://brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-first-law/ (which discuses magic in Middle-earth) and http://brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-second-law/. Sanderson uses Tolkien as an example of a writer using 'soft magic' : it's all vague how it works, from which various advantages and limitations follow, just as there would be limitations and advantages of explaining the 'rules of magic' much more mechanistically. ]

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

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A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 9 2016, 9:11am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 9 2016, 1:39pm

Post #4 of 8 (697 views)
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The Elven Rings play a part... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Three Elven Rings seem to have played a part in defense of the Realms of the Eldar as well. Lord Elrond wielded Vilya, the Ring of Air, given to him by Gil-galad. Galadriel possessed Nenya, the Ring of Water. Narya, the Ring of Fire, was originally worn by Círdan, although he gave it to Mithrandir upon the Istari's arrival in Middle-earth. The Rings presumably enhanced the power of their bearers and may have had distinct abilities of their own, but they did seem to play a part in the defense of the Elven realms where they were kept in the centuries following Sauron's defeat at the hand of Isildur.

Apparently Círdan believed that the Grey Havens were sufficiently protected by his own power and that Gandalf's need for it was greater than his own. The Havens were also protected from land by the buffers of Eriador and the lands beyond the Misty Mountains and by sea by the further buffer of Gondor's navy.

Even the power of Thranduil and the other Eldar dwelling in the Woodland Realm seemed to be enough to protect that kingdom from most threats even without the benefit of a Great Ring. The great spiders of Mirkwood could not seem to pass the borders of that realm even though they could approach quite close to it. I would think that a creature of evil needed a strong will just to overcome the sheer force of the enchantments of the Eldar. The Orcs that were pursuing the Fellowship in Lórien were probably having a tough time of it even before they were destroyed by the elven defenders. They must have had a strong leader who drove them into the Golden Wood.

"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."


- Dream of the Endless


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 9 2016, 1:47pm)


squire
Half-elven


Apr 9 2016, 2:12pm

Post #5 of 8 (693 views)
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I don't think the hiding of Elvish realms implies a badness or evil use of magic [In reply to] Can't Post

You said, as part of your comments on Tolkien's 'magics':
‘goeteia’ (as I read Tolkien’s comments) seems to be more about illusion. Neither is morally good or bad (in this tale) per se - it depends upon the motive or purpose of use. The Enemy tends to use “magia...to bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and subjugate”. Those are supremely bad motives in a tale that is specifically about domination of other ‘free’ wills. The elves’ goeteia, by contrast is intended as Art - it deceives only accidentally (like someone mistaking a statue for a real person). [The hiding of the elven realms would seem to contradict this statement, come to think of it - that's clearly a deliberate deception]

I don't think the Elves' hiding of their realms through deceptive illusion is as you suggest - bad, that is, in the sense of dominating another's free will. As I understand the matter, the hiding of the Elven realms of Rivendell and Lorien in The Lord of the Rings follows on the less-well known "Girdle of Melian" that protected the realm of Thingol from intruders in the First Age (as told in The Silmarillion). I don't have the exact reference from the Sil or JRRT's letters, but others here have already summed it up: the hiding 'works' with paths that lead elsewhere and appearances that keep a stranger from going in the correct direction. But my take on this 'deception' is that it is the stranger who is deceiving himself. His bad motives, or his ignorance of Elvish ways, or his inability to see clearly, is the problem - not the land itself or the spells the Elves use to enhance the protection. With guidance, or permission, or the aid of the Valar (e.g. Beren's tale), good people of any kind can enter any Elven land.
Perhaps the best statement of this in LotR is when we encounter Lothlorien. Both Aragorn and Sam, in their own words, explain this 'deceptive' magic to the two Men of Gondor who - perhaps like you - see the Elvish magic as dangerous or bad:
'[Lorien is] Perilous indeed,’ said Aragorn, ‘fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them.' (LotR II.6)

Sam is equally perceptive:
‘It strikes me that folk takes their peril with them into Lórien, and finds it there because they’ve brought it' (LotR IV.5)

Elizabeth makes an excellent point about the Old Forest having the same features, but in an evil way. It isn't the deception that's evil, it's the purposes for which the deception exists. As you say earlier in your comment, "it depends upon the motive or purpose of use."



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noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 9 2016, 6:29pm

Post #6 of 8 (671 views)
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That's true - deliberateness and morality are not the same [In reply to] Can't Post

I was assuming that when elves did...whatever it is they do to conceal a place ...that they knew jolly well that it would prevent a lot of would-be visitors. But that is an assumption of course - possibly they sit within their hidden realms completely at a loss to explain why the postal service has got so bad recently. They do, at times, seem rather poorly informed about the strengths and weaknesses of other races.

What I was trying to do was to say was that I thought the elves may have made their realms deliberately hard to find (as opposed to this being an unexpected side effect - the statue that is so realistic that it is mistaken by the ignorant for a real person is Tolkien's example in his letter).

Morally , it's probably not so bad to hide your realms - at least, it's not as bad as deliberately deceiving someone to your advantage and their disadvantage. A morally worse example would be Eol, a dark elf who, in the Silmarillion ensnares Aredhel with this lose-your-way malarkey. He then finally appeared as her rescuer and they married - I recall an epic discussion about this chapter in the last Silmarillion read-through in which it was pointed out that his behaviour was dubious at best.

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201

A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Apr 10 2016, 1:11pm

Post #7 of 8 (643 views)
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In the case of Rivendell [In reply to] Can't Post

I have never been sure if it was protected because Sauron didn't have the power to destroy it or if it was down to Sauron not knowing where it was.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 10 2016, 1:19pm

Post #8 of 8 (642 views)
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Rivendell [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I have never been sure if it was protected because Sauron didn't have the power to destroy it or if it was down to Sauron not knowing where it was.

A bit of both, I shouldn't wonder. If Sauron located Rivendell and brought his full might against it, I don't think that Elrond's folk could prevail for long.

"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."


- Dream of the Endless


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 10 2016, 1:19pm)

 
 

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