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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 13 2016, 2:57am
Post #76 of 98
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To shave or not to shave. That is the question.
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The scruff of a beard shown on Thorin, chin hairs on Fili or Bofur, and flat-out beardless state of Kili in the movies would be like wearing a top hat and tails in the backwoods of West Virginia or attending a Mountain Man Rendezvous dressed like a 17th century French cavalier.
Now that's what I call an ugly irrationalization. Beards are grown. Clothes are not.
No, but the decision of whether or not to shave or trim a beard is a conscious one. I also thought that Kili's beard, in particular, was ridiculously short.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 13 2016, 3:19am
Post #77 of 98
(2241 views)
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I'll be gentle.
******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 13 2016, 1:56pm
Post #78 of 98
(2216 views)
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It's more a question of testosterone rather than choice. It’s like teenage boys whose voices haven’t changed, or for that matter young mountain men with scraggly beards.
It’s not their fault and it’s wrong to make fun of them.
And yeah, guys who trim their beards into spiffy Vandykes, goatees, mutton chops, soul patches, or just moustaches usually do so because if they try to grow a glorious full beard it looks scraggly and patchy. (For example, my own beard has a bald patch under my right jaw-line about the size of a silver dollar, but hey, I'm 63 and got over any adolescent self-consciousness long ago.)
Guess it’s time for Elsa’s big number, eh?
******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 13 2016, 2:19pm
Post #79 of 98
(2221 views)
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We should also keep in mind that, at least in Tolkien's legendarium, even Dwarf children of both genders have facial hair from an early age--if they are not actually born with it. Kili has less of a beard than an extreme five o'clock shadow.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 13 2016, 2:20pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 13 2016, 6:17pm
Post #80 of 98
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Does Tolkien actually say that, Otaku-sempai?
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I was looking to see exactly what he did say before posting earlier in this thread (just to make sure I knew what I was saying) and I couldn't find any reference like that - what did I miss?
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 13 2016, 6:44pm
Post #81 of 98
(2198 views)
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For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike.
-The War of the Jewels
Of course this could be like how all Noldor have dark hair...except for the ones who don't.
******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 13 2016, 6:48pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 13 2016, 6:55pm
Post #82 of 98
(2183 views)
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Tolkien wrote that all Dwarves had beards from the beginning of their lives.*
* The War of the Jewels, "Part Two. The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Concerning the Dwarves (Chapter 13).
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 13 2016, 6:59pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 13 2016, 9:59pm
Post #83 of 98
(2147 views)
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Or like the Elves not having beards, except of course for....
I thought I remembered something like this but when I couldn't find it, decided I must have imagined it...
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 13 2016, 10:01pm
Post #84 of 98
(2143 views)
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For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 18 2016, 10:02pm
Post #85 of 98
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The problem with your "rationalizations"
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Is that it's still only your OPINION that Thorin has only a "scruff of a beard," or that Fili is only sporting chin hairs. Let's see now:
Hm, chin is completely covered, hair goes back along the jawline to the sideburns, all skin is completely covered - say, I think that qualifies as a BEARD! Certainly not the long beard tucked into a belt as per text, and nobody is arguing that it is. But to suggest that this is only a "scruff of a beard" implies that either there is a universal definition of a beard that I'm not aware of (if so, please enlighten us), or that you're just terribly unsatisfied with the final product. Well of course that's your right, and it's my right to disagree. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that image of Thorin - no, nothing at all! 
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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wizzardly
Rohan
Apr 18 2016, 11:44pm
Post #86 of 98
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Technically that is a beard. I agree. However that is not a dwarven beard as described by Tolkien. He looks more like the Burger King than the King Under the Mountain.
He's even got the pimp fur and everything! I think we found PJs inspiration for Thorin!
(This post was edited by wizzardly on Apr 18 2016, 11:49pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 18 2016, 11:58pm
Post #87 of 98
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Burger King under the Mountain
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Have it your way!
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 19 2016, 2:32pm
Post #88 of 98
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that is pretty funny! But I think our TRUE King Under the Mountain would disagree:
Yeah, no, sorry - Burger King just isn't #Majestic enough for me!
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Gandalf the Green
Rivendell
Apr 19 2016, 4:09pm
Post #89 of 98
(2013 views)
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You're not mistaking the Man on the far right for a dwarf, right?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 19 2016, 4:25pm
Post #90 of 98
(2010 views)
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He seems no taller than the Dwarves seated next to him and, if he were a Man, who would he be? The residents of Rivendell were Elves and Peredhil; Boromir seems to have arrived alone; as far as we know there were no Dúnedain of the North present other than Aragorn.
Come to think of it, though, the last Dwarf in armor, next to the figure in question, doesn't have a particularly long beard either--at least compared to the others.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 19 2016, 4:28pm)
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LSF
Gondor
Apr 19 2016, 4:37pm
Post #91 of 98
(2001 views)
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That's a problem with that scene...
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The dwarves are huge compared to the men and elves.
http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130313065260/lotr/images/e/ef/Untitledhgjhg.png
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 19 2016, 5:18pm
Post #92 of 98
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Your shot does depict at least a couple more Men at the Council. Were these supposed to have accompanied Boromir from Gondor? At least this pair does appear taller than the Dwarves seated next to them. Here is a better shot showing that other fellow:
I guess he is a Man after all. And I think that is Boromir seated right next to him.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 19 2016, 5:27pm)
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Apr 20 2016, 12:31am
Post #93 of 98
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It's obvious you don't see a problem
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Nonetheless, the depiction of Thorin in the films is inconsistent with Tolkien's descriptions. As I said, PJ and WETA made decisions for artistic purposes. I don't have any problem with that. I DO have a problem with how people are making up complete and utter bilge trying to claim it's consistent with the text. If Tolkien intended Thorin to look as he was depicted in the movie, the Elves would have made fun of him dipping his long locks in the river, not his beard.
I understand why women (and probably some men) like how they styled Thorin, Fili, and Kili but it's still inconsistent with Tolkien's descriptions. That's not rationalization, it's textual reference.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 20 2016, 1:29am
Post #94 of 98
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No, I don't have a problem with it
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As I said, it's clear that THORIN isn't depicted as a 195ish dwarf with a really long beard, and I really don't think anyone is saying that he is. What others are saying is that, since the book doesn't really describe the OTHER dwarves, that there is nothing textually inconsistent with the way the OTHER dwarves look. Since the book is so vague, the only yardstick most people have is Gimli from the LoTR movie, and I am on the side of those that think that there's no reason for all 13 dwarves to look like Gimli. Well, except for Gloin. Now, one can ASSUME that all the dwarves in the Hobbit book had long beards, but again, that's only an assumption, since the book doesn't actually say. Therefore, there's really nothing inconsistent about the dwarves appearance in PJ's movie - except for Thorin, of course. Call it bilge if you want, but I will respectfully disagree with that assertion.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Apr 20 2016, 4:38am
Post #95 of 98
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What others are saying is that, since the book doesn't really describe the OTHER dwarves, that there is nothing textually inconsistent with the way the OTHER dwarves look.
Really?
Dwalin: "It was a dwarf with a blue beard tucked into a golden belt, and very bright eyes under his dark-green hood"
Fili and Kili: "two more dwarves, both with blue hoods, silver belts, and yellow beards; and each of them carried a bag of tools and a spade"
(nice yellow beard there)
All the dwarves in the fir trees: "You would have laughed (from a safe distance), if you had seen the dwarves sitting up in the trees with their beards dangling down, like old gentlemen gone cracked and playing at being boys."
Balin's and Gloin's beard's would have dangled. Others ... not so much.
Meeting Beorn: "Balin and Dwalin appeared and bowed so low that their beards swept the stone floor."
Fili's beard actually fits AFTER the spider encounter: "Somehow or other Fili was got on to the branch, and then he did his best to help the hobbit, although he was feeling very sick and ill from spider-poison, and from hanging most of the night and the next day wound round and round with only his nose to breathe through. It took him ages to get the beastly stuff out of his eyes and eyebrows, and as for his beard, he had to cut most of it off."
Just before they found the secret door: "They all fell silent: the hobbit standing by the grey stone, and the dwarves with wagging beards watching impatiently. "
Wagging. Uh huh.
Bilbo's good-bye: "“Farewell, Balin!” he said; “and farewell, Dwalin; and farewell Dori, Nori, Ori, Oin, Gloin, Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur! May your beards never grow thin!”"
What's the point? The point is that if you actually read the text, Tolkien implied at every point that all the dwarves had thick full beards (well, except for Fili after escaping the spiders). PJ and WETA chose different looks for artistic purposes, pure and simple, period, end of story.
Point of fact: The Japanese animators who did the Rankin-Bass cartoon version ALSO took liberties -- in fact, they drew the ugliest Elves I've ever seen. The way they're drawn, it's hard to believe Elrond and the King of the Wood-elves are even fo the same race. I still love the cartoon but I don't pretend that the depictions of the Elves are consistent with the story or that the cartoon didn't part from the text when it said 7 of Thorin & Company died at the BoFA. PJ's Hobbit trilogy was an amazing live action depiction but he did take a lot of liberties with the text.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 20 2016, 8:29am
Post #96 of 98
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PJ and WETA chose different looks for artistic purposes, pure and simple
Yes
PJ's Hobbit trilogy was an amazing live action depiction but he did take a lot of liberties with the text
...and yes, but...
period, end of story.
No, never that. Even while you accuse the rest of us of 'making up complete and utter bilge' (nice respectful turn of phrase, there), you're also slanting your own reading of the text to make your point (as do we all, at times). Let's just consider a 'wagging' beard. You seem to imply that the word proves something. Does it? A beard may be very short - perhaps half an inch below the chin, or less - and it will 'wag' when the bearded one nods or shakes his head. It moves with the chin, that's all.
'Dangling' - well yes, I'd have to agree that to 'dangle' a beard would need to be longer but I can't see any specification there that EVERY dwarf had a dangling beard.
And I can see no reference there to the length of Fili and Kili's beards, just the colour - which in Kili's case was changed dramatically for the film.
I'm finding this whole discussion increasingly funny because for me these things just aren't essential. I will take the beard question seriously (or at least try to) when someone who damns the film on grounds of beard length protests with equal vigour that Gandalf just wasn't Gandalf because his eyebrows didn't stick out beyond the brim of his hat. Tolkien uses a lot of exaggeration in his physical descriptions, particularly in The Hobbit, where things like the eyebrows and the dwarf beards are played for comic effect. You can get away with that in a book; for a film every visual detail matters and some - like eyebrows that project beyond hat brims or beards long enough to tuck into belts are either impossible to show or they create practical problems undreamed of in the writing - or they simply look ridiculous. So ways have to be found round them. Gandalf has really bushy eyebrows which don't come anywhere near the depth of his hat brim. Dwarf beards aren't tucked into belts but the idea that they may be long enough to need restraining in some way is honoured by the use of some very creative - and in some cases rather beautiful braiding. Tolkien said dwarves are bearded and the film dwarves ARE bearded. In that way the text is honoured. And what I think matters far, far more - it does to me, at least - is that the essential nature of dwarves as Tolkien defined it - their hardness, strength, resistance to injury, fierce pride and long memories is followed to the letter.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 20 2016, 9:46pm
Post #97 of 98
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What you say is SO true - and from the way some are going on about the Dwarves, you'd think the success or failure of these movies rests solely on the length of Thorin's beard! I mean, I realize Thorin is important, but honestly! I think there's SO MUCH more to the character than just the beard length, and to me RA's performance is the most dynamic, amazing thing out there - especially in BOT5A! Yes, I know I've got a ridiculous fan-girl crush going on, but that doesn't mean his acting wasn't superb. It's his performance that made me care about Thorin, who was just some stuffy old git in the book, IMO of course! Well, time to move on to another controversial subject
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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wizzardly
Rohan
Apr 20 2016, 11:57pm
Post #98 of 98
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You know, you bring up a good point. There must have been a follicle shortage in New Zealand or something. Seriously, take a look at Gandalf's brows in the Rankin/Bass version, they're exquisite!
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