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The One Ring Forums: Off Topic: The Pollantir:
Durin deaths as seen on film
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lionoferebor
Rohan


Apr 4 2016, 8:06pm

Post #1 of 58 (939 views)
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Durin deaths as seen on film Can't Post

Rank the 5 Durin deaths - Thror, Thrain, Thorin, Fili, and Kili - from best to worse. (I'd say favorite to least favorite, but I don't think there is really a favorite when it comes to this).


(This post was edited by lionoferebor on Apr 4 2016, 8:13pm)


DainPig
Gondor


Apr 4 2016, 8:19pm

Post #2 of 58 (867 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll say this:

1 - Fili (really shocking. could be better, though)
2 - Thorin (you know why)
3 - Thrór (I think this one is better than Kili's)
4 - Kili (could be better)
5 - Thráin (w-i-l-h-e-a-lm)




Gianna
Rohan


Apr 4 2016, 11:53pm

Post #3 of 58 (853 views)
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ranks [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm leaving out Thrain's death since I haven't seen the EEs and can't fairly judge.

4. Thror -- Reasons: I (at least) registered Thorin's avenging charge more than Thror's death.
3. Kili -- Reasons: Tauriel. UGH. It was really good until she got there though, which is the only reason it's at 3 instead of 4.
2 & 1. Tie beween Fili and Thorin
Fili -- Reasons: It was utterly shocking and unexpected at that particular moment. MC deaths in films tend to be very drawn out so this is also a plus for me.
Thorin -- Reasons: Painful, moving conversation with Bilbo. (Also Azog FINALLY gone.)

~There's some good left in this world. And it's worth fighting for.~
------
My website
My LOTR-inspired fantasy novel is on Amazon

(This post was edited by Gianna on Apr 4 2016, 11:54pm)


Sarahbor
Lorien


Apr 5 2016, 3:14am

Post #4 of 58 (839 views)
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Ranks [In reply to] Can't Post

5. Thror - It wasn't poorly done or anything, we simply just didn't know him long enough for this to have much of an impact beyond "That's too bad." But it wasn't really intended to pack a big punch, it was just part of a backstory
4. Thrain - It would've been fine if it weren't for that Wilhelm scream, which was completely out of place. Gandalf seemed like he didn't react enough, too.
3. Kili - While I never liked the romance with Tauriel, I can at least appreciate the theme of giving your life to save another, which was what his death scene was about
2. Fili - As soon as he was cornered in that tunnel I knew he was toast. But even though I saw his death coming a mile away, it didn't diminish it at all. Thorin watches as his nephew is killed in front of him, and there's absolutely nothing he can do to stop it. Fili's last moments before his uncle, brother, and friends begging them to run for their lives and Thorin refusing, then Kili's avenging rush into danger and Thorin following him into that danger despite even Dwalin pleading that he stay behind - very well done
1. Thorin - the most well-done death scene in all 6 films, and one of the best in cinema period. The dialog with Bilbo was perfectly written, and his death brings a triple impact since we've followed this lead character for 3 films and not just 1

Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Apr 5 2016, 5:43pm

Post #5 of 58 (829 views)
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I guess there were 5 deaths [In reply to] Can't Post

5. Thror - oh yeah, I guess he died.
4. Thrain - To me, this was almost pointless, like "well he's supposed to die here, so...."
3. Kili - I liked that he ORIGINALLY was avenging his brother; but DARN that Tauriel for distracting himCrazy
2. Thorin - His death speech was amazingUnsure, but I hate that Azog jumped thru the ice, that was just DUMB!Mad
1. Fili - Brutal, abrupt, and effective as a catalyst for the other two. I only wish that he could have taken out a few Orcs before being overwhelmed, *sigh!*


Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


DainPig
Gondor


Apr 5 2016, 5:53pm

Post #6 of 58 (827 views)
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Why? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
2. Thorin - His death speech was amazingUnsure, but I hate that Azog jumped thru the ice, that was just DUMB!Mad

He was still alive and wanted to kill Thorin. I'd have done the same thing.




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 5 2016, 5:58pm

Post #7 of 58 (823 views)
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Because [In reply to] Can't Post

It looked absurd because, unless the water was very shallow, allowing him to push off of the bottom, it should have been impossible for Azog to leap out of the lake in the way that he did.

"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."


- Dream of the Endless


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 5 2016, 6:06pm)


DainPig
Gondor


Apr 5 2016, 6:00pm

Post #8 of 58 (821 views)
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Well, I understand. [In reply to] Can't Post

Still less stupid than Legolas's super mario jumps LaughLaughLaughLaugh




Smaug the iron
Gondor


Apr 5 2016, 6:06pm

Post #9 of 58 (813 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

5. Thror
4. Thrain
3. Kili
2. Fili
1. Thorin


lionoferebor
Rohan


Apr 5 2016, 6:43pm

Post #10 of 58 (813 views)
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In addition to what Otaku-sempai said... [In reply to] Can't Post

Not only would it be physically impossible for Azog to break through the ice, it would have been physically impossible for him to do anything. The bodies first instinct when it comes in contact with water that cold is to gasp. This is called cold shock response and in the case of immersion it often leads to drowning. Azog should have drowned within seconds of going under.


(This post was edited by lionoferebor on Apr 5 2016, 6:48pm)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Apr 5 2016, 7:25pm

Post #11 of 58 (805 views)
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Pretty much what everyone below said [In reply to] Can't Post

I LOVE the entire ice fight scene (made a video edit of just that scene, but can't post it here), but yeah Azog jumping through the ice afterwards just ruins it for me. Also, if Thorin could penetrate Azog's chestplate, why couldn't he have done that sooner - for instance, while Azog was distracted by the Eagles? Just a thought.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Apr 5 2016, 7:27pm

Post #12 of 58 (803 views)
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True that [In reply to] Can't Post

Gotta say, Bolg's fight with Tauriel also looked impressive - very well choreographed, IMO. And yeah, waaaaaayyyyy better than Legolas running up the falling blocksCrazy

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Smaug the iron
Gondor


Apr 5 2016, 7:29pm

Post #13 of 58 (806 views)
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How do we know? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Not only would it be physically impossible for Azog to break through the ice, it would have been physically impossible for him to do anything. The bodies first instinct when it comes in contact with water that cold is to gasp. This is called cold shock response and in the case of immersion it often leads to drowning. Azog should have drowned within seconds of going under.

How do we know that orc bodies work the same way as normal human bodies work in cold water? Azog is an orc, and maybe orcs can survive under cold water longer then we do.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 5 2016, 7:56pm

Post #14 of 58 (797 views)
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A Good Point [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
How do we know that orc bodies work the same way as normal human bodies work in cold water? Azog is an orc, and maybe orcs can survive under cold water longer then we do.


There is that. And Azog could have suppressed any impulse for a cold shock response though a sheer act of will. It is still the leap out of the water that is the deal breaker for me.

"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."


- Dream of the Endless


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 5 2016, 7:57pm)


Meneldor
Valinor


Apr 5 2016, 8:13pm

Post #15 of 58 (791 views)
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They were getting close to the edge of the waterfall when Azog broke through. [In reply to] Can't Post

As water rushes faster approaching the edge, it has to get shallower, so it makes sense that he could push off the bottom once he got close to the falls.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Sarahbor
Lorien


Apr 5 2016, 8:32pm

Post #16 of 58 (790 views)
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I think [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember hearing (awhile ago) about someone who was sucked under cold icy water and went unconscious, but managed to stay down for 45 minutes before being pulled out and still survived. I don't recall the details though, so yeah it could be a totally different type of scenario, but Azog is an orc, and a big tough one at that. And orcs used to be elves. Do we know orc and elf bodies work the same as human ones? Dwarves weather fire and hunger better than men (as mentioned in either the Silm or the HoME, can't remember); why couldn't Morgoth or Sauron use their evil arts on the orcs to make them withstand cold better, for instance?

As for jumping out of the ice, I just assumed he pushed off the bottom. Nothing else even occurred to me. I've never understood the need to overanalyze the science of every detail in films, because you're never going to enjoy a film that way. There's hardly a movie in existence that doesn't have something unrealistic or scientifically questionable or implausible. Of course, if it's something so obviously absurd it takes you out of the film completely, that's another story. I didn't see Azog's ice jump or cold water plunge this way though, since it's potentially explainable in that he pushed off the bottom and has higher shock tolerance than humans. It doesn't necessarily have to be explained by the rules of the real world, but rather by those of the universe in question. If something can be explained within the context of its world, it's fair game. I do agree though that Thorin could've just speared Azog as he was distracted by the eagles though (the first time I saw the film I was thinking "Stab him now!" the whole time).

And I wish Kili's death had been just about avenging his brother, without Tauriel there to distract him (which was strategically dumb anyway).

Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/

(This post was edited by Sarahbor on Apr 5 2016, 8:38pm)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Apr 5 2016, 8:50pm

Post #17 of 58 (782 views)
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It may be plausible, but [In reply to] Can't Post

that doesn't make it a good scene. I would have liked it better if Bolg had come up behind Thorin and stabbed him while Thorin was watching Azog under the ice. I know it's dumb to say "realistic" in a fantasy movie, but yeah, that would have been more realistic. And we might have avoided the "Legolas running up the falling blocks", talk about taking you out of the movie!Frown I guess what really bugs me about it is, I thought that Thorin stepping off the ice was about the coolest, most clever ending to the fight scene they could have come up with - but then they just HAD to let Azog have the last laugh, UGH!

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Sarahbor
Lorien


Apr 5 2016, 8:59pm

Post #18 of 58 (776 views)
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Whether it's a good scene [In reply to] Can't Post

is entirely up to the viewer. I thought it was fine, others didn't. People will disagree over quality even with completely plausible scenes. If they stuck with the book storyline then yeah Bolg could kill Thorin, but we have an established ugly history with Azog, so he should be the one to kill Thorin. I wouldn't have liked it at all if Bolg had stabbed him, because (in movie context) it's kind of disappointing because Thorin's dual was not with him personally, and it makes all the previous build-up with Azog kind of pointless if Azog doesn't kill him. And Azog didn't really have the last laugh; after he stabbed Thorin and thought he was winning, Thorin tricked him and speared him right back. I also loved how Thorin got him to slide under the ice, but as Azog's final death after 2 movies of build-up that's a little anticlimactic, and if Bolg snuck up and stabbed him after that, he gets the last laugh and it ruins Thorin's great moment just beforehand. That's really anticlimactic.

Agree about the falling blocks though. That was too much.

Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/

(This post was edited by Sarahbor on Apr 5 2016, 9:05pm)


ange1e4e5
Gondor

Apr 5 2016, 9:03pm

Post #19 of 58 (772 views)
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For me, [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Thorin. Especially that final speech to Bilbo.
2. Fili. Cold execution, with everyone watching. The end.
3. Kili; would have thought he wouldn't die, since Bilbo was hit the same way and merely knocked out.
4. Thror; the one that started it all, shame we didn't see much.
5. Thrain; Wilhelm killed most of the tension.

I always follow my job through.


lionoferebor
Rohan


Apr 5 2016, 9:26pm

Post #20 of 58 (767 views)
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We don't... [In reply to] Can't Post

but on the flip side we also don't know if they do. Wink The question isn't whether or not orcs can survive under water longer than men but if they have a higher tolerance to extremely cold temperatures. It's the cold, not the water, that causes the body to gasp thus filling the lungs with water which leads to drowning. Apparently Azog doesn't drown which tells me one of two things (1) orcs do have a higher tolerance to extreme cold, or (2) they don't and orcs are immune to drowning. (I'm sure there is more this could tell me, but I am currently multiply tasking times 10 and I can't think of all of them at the moment). Of course there is the possibility as Otaku suggest that Azog may have suppressed cold shock out of pure will.


lionoferebor
Rohan


Apr 5 2016, 9:49pm

Post #21 of 58 (762 views)
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I'm guessing... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
3. Kili; would have thought he wouldn't die, since Bilbo was hit the same way and merely knocked out.


I'm guessing your referring to when Bolg punches Kili in the face. Maybe Dwarves have harder heads than Hobbits and that's why he didn't pass out like Bilbo. Still, not saying how, but Kili could have survived.


In Reply To
5. Thrain; Wilhelm killed most of the tension.


What is this Wilhelm everyone is talking about? I'm going to have to re-watch that scene.


lionoferebor
Rohan


Apr 5 2016, 9:57pm

Post #22 of 58 (759 views)
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It's not dumb... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I know it's dumb to say "realistic" in a fantasy movie, but yeah, that would have been more realistic.


At least I don't think it's dumb to want some level of realism in a fantasy film. For me it makes it a little easier to connect with the characters and the world in which they live. That's one of thing I like about the Middle Earth films and books, there is a level of realism that makes it feel to me as if it is a lost part of our worlds history.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Apr 5 2016, 10:03pm

Post #23 of 58 (755 views)
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It's a pre-recorded scream [In reply to] Can't Post

and you hear it a lot in PJ's movies - I heard it in Two Towers. Many people find it annoying. My problem with Thrain's death is that it just didn't make sense that Sauron would grab him and wipe him out, but lock Gandalf in a cage. Also, why didn't Gandalf pop out his magic shield BEFORE Thrain was snatched? I dunno, just didn't care for it, maybe I should have rated it last, hmmm.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Sarahbor
Lorien


Apr 5 2016, 10:11pm

Post #24 of 58 (750 views)
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That's true [In reply to] Can't Post

We don't know for sure, but it's not out of the realm of possibility in Middle-earth, so it's not automatically incredulous. And yeah I meant cold tolerance rather than holding your breath longer underwater.

As for dwarves having harder skulls, Dwalin and Balin knock heads in Bag End with no problem, and Dain konks out half a dozen orcs with his head, so I think we can say they do have sturdier skeletons. I think Tolkien says they withstand injury better than others, too.

Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/


lionoferebor
Rohan


Apr 5 2016, 10:13pm

Post #25 of 58 (751 views)
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Yeah... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
My problem with Thrain's death is that it just didn't make sense that Sauron would grab him and wipe him out, but lock Gandalf in a cage. Also, why didn't Gandalf pop out his magic shield BEFORE Thrain was snatched? I dunno, just didn't care for it, maybe I should have rated it last, hmmm.


There were aspects of all the deaths or scenes leading up to the moment - except Thror's - that have me asking why didn't this happen or why didn't so and so do this?

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