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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Mar 21 2016, 12:03pm
Post #1 of 26
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Dead. Or maybe undead, and people's reaction
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One thing about the tales as we read through them is the appearance of spirits, visions, ghosts, spooks if you like. Creatures like the Nazgul, the dead Marshes, the dead men of dunharrow. They do have the effect of freaking out those that are alive. I wonder what it is a about them that does this. Is it just the fact that they are undead spirits? In which case, why don't more people think like Legolas that they are just pale shadows with no power in the world of the living? Or maybe they don't have the same effect upon the Elves. Although the Nazgul could kill, obviously. In fact another point about the Nazgul, how many men where they actually worth in battle? Coul the defenders of Gondor have withstood Mordor if it was just Men and Orcs they where opposed to?
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sevilodorf
Tol Eressea
Mar 22 2016, 12:47am
Post #2 of 26
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The fight for the heart of men
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was just as important to Tolkien. And the spirits and visions and the Nazgul sap the courage from the men... it is Gandalf --bearer of Narya.... another Ring of Fire.. though this one is meant to inspire (enflame??) the hearts of men against tyranny and despair who is the leader in Minas Tirith.
And the undead are "unnatural" (as Sam might say) decent folk just die.
Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua
(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 23 2016, 11:17pm
Post #4 of 26
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When have people ever *not* feared the dead?
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I think Tolkien played off traditional fears such as wolves, giant spiders, and savage armies bigger than your own, and another fear is of ghosts--aren't people always afraid of ghosts? Or 99% of them are.
Legolas (and Elves) didn't fear the mortal dead because Elves are profoundly different from mortals in the first place and don't wholly understand them even when they're alive. And maybe if you know that you can't be killed easily, and if you are you'll just be reincarnated, you have a lot less fear of "ghosts." Anyway, that's how I look at it.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Mar 24 2016, 12:12am
Post #5 of 26
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I suppose that I must add the comment
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That Aragorn didn't seem to fear the dead as much as some.
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enanito
Rohan
Mar 24 2016, 4:03am
Post #6 of 26
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Afraid? Yes. But with the will of a King.
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I'd say Aragorn was just as afraid as most men of the Dead, as his remarks show him very reticent to take the Dimholt door. But once he saw it was his only option (and realizing it was "his time"), it was his will alone that allowed the grey company to pass through the Paths of the Dead.
It will be interesting to see what comments we get when we cover this chapter in a couple weeks when the Read-Thru begins anew!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 24 2016, 8:35am
Post #7 of 26
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That's true - the (un)dead press a lot of buttons
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Author China Mieville has a 'skulltopus' tattoo - an octopus whose central part is a human skull. He says that this represents for him two traditions in fantastic fiction (I think the undead tick both these boxes):
The very short version is that it’s a simultaneous homage to two, I think, contradictory traditions of the fantastic, which is the “hauntological,” the ghostly tradition, and the “weird” —the what I think of, rather than the “uncanny,” as the “abcanny,” and it feels to me like those have always pulled in very different directions. One to do with the return of the oppressed, and one to do with the eruption of the utterly unknown and unthinkable, and these are symbolized to me by the skull on the one hand and the octopus on the other, and by the different traditions of the ghost story tradition and the weird fiction tradition. China Mieville interviewed by Lightspeed Magazine, 2011 http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/...view-china-mieville/
What I mean by quoting this is that the undead can represent both unnatural revenge or general malice from beyond the grave, as well as fear of the unknown.
Other of our buttons to push are potentially:
=> Disturbing to think about death as it reminds us of our own mortality
=> The instinct for disgust towards physical corruption
=> A loss of control: zombies or Dracula's victims or over-users of Rings of Power lose their free will and independence, and become tools for some master. That's disturbing for those of us who like the concept of free will. Tolkien also seems to have a theme about the inherent evilness of dominating other wills.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Mar 24 2016, 8:35am)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 24 2016, 7:19pm
Post #8 of 26
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The Gift of Men seems to have been tainted by Morgoth so that most Men fear it rather than embrace it. (Like, say, Elessar does when his time is over.)
As for Legolas, The Gift of Men is not for Elves, so I'd suppose that particular aspect of Morgoth's Taint would have no effect on them.
IMHO
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I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Mar 24 2016, 7:21pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 25 2016, 12:07am
Post #9 of 26
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The other Dunedain from Arnor feared the Dead, so being a Dunedain doesn't make you immune. I wonder how Faramir or Imrahil, who are similar to Aragorn in being superior Dunedain, would have felt about the Paths of the Dead? I think Boromir would have been very afraid of the Dunharrow dead. Orcs are living and didn't scare him, but I think ghosts would.
For me, Aragorn is a larger-than-life character who isn't afraid of the dead and can wrest the Orthanc palantir from Sauron's will when Saruman himself couldn't do so, so he doesn't play by the usual rules of mortals.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Mar 28 2016, 10:00pm
Post #10 of 26
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Here's a true story that kind of explains it for me.
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Bear with me; you'll see the connection eventually.
A couple of years ago I looked in the bathtub and saw what I thought was cat poop. I sighed and went to get a paper towel to clean it up, and when I came back, it was *crawling around*! It totally freaked out the ancient, reptile part of my brain, even after I figured out it was a very ugly caterpillar (probably a tiger swallowtail, I found out later.) I have never been scared of caterpillars, but I had to leave the room until my heart slowed down, and even then it took all the stern, rational talking to myself I could manage to make myself go back in and put it out the window.
Why was it so scary? Because poop isn't supposed to be crawling around, and neither are dead people. It was *uncanny*, and my terror had nothing to do with the rational part of brain, and everything to do with that instinct for survival that says if it looks weird, it's dangerous.
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GNU Terry Pratchett
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 29 2016, 6:19am
Post #11 of 26
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Nazgul are the "psy ops" force.
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We never actually see them do anything other than terrify people and animals. In ForR, they were basically errand-spooks, sent to find the Ring and capture if. In the middle sections, they were carrying messages and observing movements on the ground. In RotK, they terrified not only men but (probably more productively) horses. They're scary, and that's about it. Whether the terror actually is something they're consciously emanating or just the effect of their appearance on observers, we'll never know.
We never actually saw Legolas reacting to Nazgul. He was indifferent to The Dead, because being dead isn't particularly meaningful to Elves ("oh, dear, so many of our warriors sent to Mandos...). Whether being "undead" is what works for the Nazgul or other dark powers they've learned from their Boss is hard to tell.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 29 2016, 1:04pm
Post #12 of 26
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We never actually see them do anything other than terrify people and animals. Tell that to the hobbit-guards who were run down at the North-gate. To Frodo and to Merry and Éowyn. The Nazgűl could act when it suited their purpose.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Meneldor
Valinor
Mar 29 2016, 1:19pm
Post #13 of 26
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Now I'm afraid to sit on the toilet.
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They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 29 2016, 5:52pm
Post #14 of 26
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"Apparently it had all, even from the beginning, been a dark enchantment of the enemy's."
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Your experience reminds me of this passage from C.S. Lewis's Perelandra that came up in our "Choices of Master Samwise" discussion.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Mar 29 2016, 6:54pm
Post #15 of 26
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I'd say there's more to the Nazgul than just the terror they inspire. Right at the beginning Gildor warns Frodo that they are 'deadly', and even if the raid on the Prancing Pony was done by frightened men on their behalf, they attacked Gandalf on Weathertop and they stabbed Frodo. There is a physical threat behind the terror.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 30 2016, 8:29am
Post #16 of 26
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Gandalf on Weathertop is a good example. But they surely could have done more damage to Frodo -- even taken him and extracted the Ring -- if they'd really been empowered to do so. We've spent hours debating why they didn't press their attack at that time.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 30 2016, 8:35am
Post #17 of 26
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WiKi attacked Théoden by terrifying his horse. In open combat with a woman, he succeeded in breaking her arm (and giving her a case of Black Breath as a contact wound). Merry caught Black Breath by stabbing him, not by being attacked in any way.
So, I'll grant that the Black Breath is pretty potent, but in physical combat, I'm unimpressed. Bottom line: they're terrifying and toxic. Not the same as great fighters.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Mar 30 2016, 8:36am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 30 2016, 2:52pm
Post #18 of 26
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A neat bit of plot-hole filler maybe?
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If the Black riders struggle to deal with physical objects much that would explain their disappointing performance at Weathertop. If they weren't capable of ragging Frodo (or dismembered bits of him) off then maybe they are reduced to waiting for him to become a wraith with which they can interact)?
Otherwise- women's or something breaks down the door at Crickhollow (at a pinch that's Trigger, the highly trained horse). As I'd read it, it's the physical bulk of the horses, rather than the riders that forces the north gate guards to jump for it: presumably Trigger, Champion, Silver and Binky (for such were the names of these dread steeds) didn't need much help for that.
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 30 2016, 7:18pm
Post #21 of 26
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It isn't that the Nazgűl couldn't have dragged Frodo off; it's that Strider drove them away before they could do so.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 30 2016, 8:19pm
Post #23 of 26
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You are quite right - for all we know Frodo was seconds away from being put into a fireman's lift and carted off (or some other horrible fate).
There is, maybe, a sense of the BRs being as corporeal as is currently convenient. Or maybe that these things are not improved by analysis
Pity though - I was enjoying the idea of the BRs relying upon the Black horses having to drag Frodo away with their teeth, and having to switch to plan B because the horses couldn't climb the hill...
Kept me amused in the gap between a series of appointments, anyhow...
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A set of links to the Book IV discussions are here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=899201#899201
A wonderful list of links to Boook II, Book I and previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 30 2016, 8:33pm
Post #24 of 26
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Tolkien wrote that Frodo nearly hurt the Witch-king.
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In the "Hunt for the Ring" notes, written as LotR was nearing publication, Tolkien wrote that one reason the Ring-wraiths withdrew at Weathertop was that Frodo's enchanted blade nearly had the same effect on the Witch-king as Merry's would six months later. Some readers find Tolkien's explanation to be an unconvincing bit of retconning.
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Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
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Good answer, sevilodorf //
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= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
Darn my autocorrect: I'm tired of its shirt! :) //
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