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MasterOfDeath
Registered User
Mar 9 2016, 1:59am
Post #1 of 14
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Why didn't Lorien or Rivendell send their armies?
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We see in Battle of the Five Armies that Galadriel and Elrond are there at Dol Guldor and witness the proof of Sauron's return and his plan to take the East. Why then didn't they send their armies to help defend Erebor?
I don't even know if Rivendell has it's own army but I know Lorien does because we see them fighting at Helms Deep in Two Towers.
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Mar 9 2016, 12:30pm
Post #2 of 14
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well, i think you really need to understand the whole concept of tolkiens writing regarding the elves and their relation to the world of men and dwarves to fully answer that question. although these films may seem a little like dungeons and dragons where all that happens is sowrd and sorcery,but the stories of middle earth go far deeper than that and i would suggest taking all the books and re readin, otherwise your just goin to live in a tolkien world thats wholly superficial and boring.
middle earth is not just a fantasy board game where different races pit armies aainst each other!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 9 2016, 1:30pm
Post #3 of 14
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We see Lord Elrond, Lady Galadriel, Saruman and Radagast at Dol Guldur by themselves, just the four of them. There was no time for Elrond or Galadriel to send an army to Erebor before the Battle of Five Armies. Especially from Rivendell as it would have taken more than a month to get there.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 9 2016, 5:21pm
Post #4 of 14
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i would suggest taking all the books and re readin Well, we don’t know if the OP has even read the books? I seem to recall a couple people comment here on TORn that they hadn’t read (or had partially read) the books.
Nevertheless the timing is off for either Rivendell or Lorien to act in the BOFA. We might for the sake of clarification call it The Sudden Battle of Five Armies.
Other ‘bookish’ thoughts: Both Rivendell and Lorien had very powerful characters but did they have what we would consider an “army”? I’ve always thought of Rivendell as more of a “haven”, not in a location conducive to an army. And Lorien is possibly populous enough for a small army, but here I think more of border guard stealth. How much of an actual battle-ready army did Lorien have?
A final (book) thought for the OP if he/she is interested: There was only one Elf at Helm’s Deep that I’m aware of – Legolas.
"I never said most of the things I said."
- Yogi & Me
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 9 2016, 8:13pm
Post #5 of 14
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Both Rivendell and Lorien had very powerful characters but did they have what we would consider an “army”? I’ve always thought of Rivendell as more of a “haven”, not in a location conducive to an army. And Lorien is possibly populous enough for a small army, but here I think more of border guard stealth. How much of an actual battle-ready army did Lorien have?
Rivendell probably wasn't large enough to have what we would call an army. However, Lothlórien is a different story and even if Celeborn didn't have a standing army, the notes in the "Tale of Years" make it clear that he could field a good-sized militia--and did.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 9 2016, 10:45pm
Post #6 of 14
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I think we’re probably in agreement, for a change
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I think the passage your referring to
Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur . . . [but] the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself.
specifies a defensive posture, in their own land, in which the Elves would have had the advantage and the victories with superior tactics, and minimal personnel.
But after the Ring’s destruction:
. . . fear and despair fell upon [Sauron’s] servants and allies.
and
. . . and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits . . .
So the questions might be – what constitutes an army in the Third Age? And how many would Celeborn (and Galadriel) need to clean out Dol Guldur? I think given the circumstances a minimal force would suffice.
Five-hundred Dwarves make an army – Dain & Co. in the BOFA.
At least two or three thousand – Mirkwood Elves- Behind the arrows a thousand of their spearmen leapt down and charged.
Six-thousand Rohrrim.
Six-thousand Army of the West.
So, in my somewhat roundabout way I’m trying to agree with your assessment of a ‘good-sized militia’. Now if you’d said ‘good-sized army’ we might be at loggerheads. 
"I never said most of the things I said."
- Yogi & Me
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Mar 10 2016, 1:57am
Post #8 of 14
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im sure loriens elves had to be in their thousands, just a gut feeling, it was the centre of elvedom in middle earth! although the films make it feel like a small village of elves living in one tree!
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Bladerunner
Gondor
Mar 10 2016, 11:58pm
Post #10 of 14
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Elladan and Elrohir were also at Helm's Deep....
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A final (book) thought for the OP if he/she is interested: There was only one Elf at Helm’s Deep that I’m aware of – Legolas.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 11 2016, 12:47am
Post #11 of 14
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Elladan and Elrohir were also at Helm's Deep....
No, they weren't. They were part of the Grey Company that joined Aragorn to travel the Paths of the Dead.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Bladerunner
Gondor
Mar 11 2016, 1:05am
Post #12 of 14
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...thanks! I stand corrected.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Mar 11 2016, 2:16am
Post #13 of 14
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in the beginning of The Passing of the Grey Company after the parley with Saruman and Gandalf had ridden off with Pippin:
‘I have thirty with me,’ said Halbarad. ‘That is all of our kindred that could be gathered in haste; but the brethren Elladan and Elrohir have ridddden with us, desiring to go to the war. . . .’
"I never said most of the things I said."
- Yogi & Me
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Mar 13 2016, 11:28am
Post #14 of 14
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Based on Elrond's words when he talked with Gandalf in FOTR, Rivendell may have an army (?), but not of any substantial size.
GANDALF: --- Saruman is coming for the Ring.
ELROND: This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves. We do not have the strength to fight both Mordor and Isengard. - Gandalf! the Ring cannot stay here."
It sounds like they might have the strength to fight either Mordor or Isengard, but not both. He probably means the power of ALL elves, if summoned to form one army, but then again "Saruman is coming for the Ring" and "the Ring cannot stay here" sound like they were talking about Rivendell the whole time...?
In the book Gandalf tells Frodo: "Indeed there is a power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while", but I suppose he meant the elves' magic and powers of concealment and so forth, not an actual armed force.
(This post was edited by Ilmatar on Mar 13 2016, 11:31am)
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