Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Tolkien's Legendarium versus Astronomical Reality v0.9720

Arcorann
The Shire

Feb 29 2016, 12:42pm

Post #1 of 8 (601 views)
Shortcut
Tolkien's Legendarium versus Astronomical Reality v0.9720 Can't Post

Changelog:
* Extended table of CE Age dates
* Adopted a consistent system of referring to people by real name if possible
* Corrections

By the way, here are links to my last two announcements:

[url=http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=884538]v0.9650
[url=http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=859387;#859387]v0.8900-0.9400


squire
Half-elven


Feb 29 2016, 12:57pm

Post #2 of 8 (584 views)
Shortcut
Very impressive amount of work [In reply to] Can't Post

However, I admit I was not interested enough in the subject, at the incredible level of detail you are working at, to finish the article. Sorry about that!

I note that at one point you say, "I do have a goal of compiling this entire article solely from freely available sources", to explain why you refuse to include ideas or source material from any hard copy document or e-book for which you would have to pay cash.

Why hold yourself to that standard? It seems to be the opposite of the standard of scholarship that the academic world of Tolkien Studies generally sticks to, and your article on Tolkien's calendrical work is certainly part of a well-known sub-discipline of Tolkien Studies.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 29 2016, 3:19pm

Post #3 of 8 (579 views)
Shortcut
Whatever you do... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I do not recommend that you attempt an analysis of the moon-phase calendar that can be seen in Bard's house in The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug. That way lies madness. Not only do the moon-phases displayed have no bearing on those visible in the films, but the calendar gives the date of 30 Halimath (September) for Durin's Day. The dating of the seasons is also questionable.

"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."


- Dream of the Endless


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 29 2016, 3:32pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Feb 29 2016, 3:28pm

Post #4 of 8 (584 views)
Shortcut
'it is certainly well, though far from necessary, to avoid such ' croppers.' (Robert Louis Stevenson) [In reply to] Can't Post

This is an impressive work, and it is interesting to have such a comprehensive list of errors. I see that some of the ways in which things can go wrong are ones that only a person with a deep knowledge of astronomy and calendars would notice. And even then, the work is evidently very difficult to do, since you say that so many published attempts contain mistakes, and expect your own paper to contain some, despite frequent checking and revision. It makes me wonder something that I don't think the article addresses, perhaps for reasons of scope: How accurate does Tolkien manage to be, as opposed to how accurate it is reasonable to expect him to have been? I'm thinking it would be reasonable to allow for his amateur level of astronomical knowledge, and that his focus was on writing fantasy fiction, an endeavour that certainly involves looking out for errors, but perhaps puts obscure astronomical and calendar ones low down in the list of priorities.

Robert Louis Stevenson is probably a good source to quote about an author's concerns and priorities here. He starts by discussing the need for an author to use a map, before moving on to the need to combine the map with an almanac:


Quote
It is, perhaps, not often that a map figures so largely in a tale, yet it is always important. The author must know his countryside, whether real or imaginary, like his hand; the distances, the points of the compass, the place of the sun's rising, the behaviour of the moon, should all be beyond cavil. And how troublesome the moon is! I have come to grief over the moon in Prince Otto, and so soon as that was pointed out to me, adopted a precaution which I recommend to other men — I never write now without an almanack. With an almanack, and the map of the country, and the plan of every house, either actually plotted on paper or already and immediately apprehended in the mind, a man may hope to avoid some of the grossest possible blunders. With the map before him, he will scarce allow the sun to set in the east, as it does in The Antiquary. With the almanack at hand, he will scarce allow two horsemen, journeying on the most urgent affair, to employ six days, from three of the Monday morning till late in the Saturday night, upon a journey of, say, ninety or a hundred miles, and before the week is out, and still on the same nags, to cover fifty in one day, as may be read at length in the inimitable novel of Rob Roy. And it is certainly well, though far from necessary, to avoid such ' croppers.'

Robert Louis Stevenson in an article My First Book - Treasure Island, which first appeared in McClure's Magazine in 1894


I think Tolkien mostly manages consistency within a work, with a few un-caught errors for the alert reader to notice (and possibly be annoyed by). From the within-a-work errors you notice, I don't see any cases where the story relies upon the error (as would be the case if, say, bright moonlight were needed for some night-time activity, but the moon should not be visible, or should be new at that time).

How reasonable is it to expect utter astronomical consistency between works? They were written at various times, when Tolkien varied both in the extent to which he's built his imaginary world, and in his level of experience as a writer. If, say, Tolkien only really began to worry about moon phases when he wrestled with the multiple time-lines of LOTR, it was too late to fix any sloppier work he had done in The Hobbit over a decade before.

Moving on to consistency in works that Tolkien didn't personally publish, I think the editorial problem of making it all consistent is even harder. The posthumously published works are drawn from writing from all parts of Tolkien's life, and more over have a huge internal timescale. Imposing consistency in something like The Silmarilion was obviously a major scholarly and editorial achievement. It might have been ideal for the editors to give the whole work a through astronomical review, but I can't say I'm surprised they didn't get it perfectly right. Some of the sources of error would, I think, require a lot of astronomical knowledge to think of. So Christopher Tolkien and his colleagues would need to have consulted an expert astronomer willing to devote him- or herself to these problems - I wonder how realistic that was in the 1970s when the Silmarilion was published?

When it comes to efforts such as extending Tolkien's fictitious calendars beyond the whole corpus of his works - e.g. relating Tolkien dates to real ones in the present day - how reasonable is it to expect that to work? This anaylsis is perhaps a good cautionary note for lay people such as myself who might just suppose that it would work: that there would be a simple one-to-one correspondence between the fictional and real calendars. . But such extrapolations are in a way nothing to do with Tolkien - I don't suppose he suggested that his systems were suitable for doing this?

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 1 2016, 12:06am

Post #5 of 8 (562 views)
Shortcut
What a great quote! [In reply to] Can't Post

And how similar to Tolkien's letter about the moon causing him difficulty.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.


Arcorann
The Shire

Mar 2 2016, 8:26am

Post #6 of 8 (514 views)
Shortcut
Re: your post [In reply to] Can't Post

When I wrote that sentence I did not have a steady source of income. Things have changed since then, though, so I'll probably remove it in future versions. Thanks for pointing it out.


Arcorann
The Shire

Mar 5 2016, 12:25pm

Post #7 of 8 (473 views)
Shortcut
v0.9721 [In reply to] Can't Post

Changelog:
* Correction to table 1 in part 5


noWizardme
Half-elven


Mar 5 2016, 2:18pm

Post #8 of 8 (465 views)
Shortcut
Clickable link to the article here... [In reply to] Can't Post

http://rinsanity.weebly.com/tolkien.html

~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293


A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383

A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.