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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Tolkien Estate's copyright limits

GrimMorwen
The Shire


Feb 14 2016, 2:27pm

Post #1 of 11 (899 views)
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Tolkien Estate's copyright limits Can't Post

Apologies for posting so little, but life etc. I need your help and I swear I'll pay it back with a more intense presence.

I'm writing an essay on the Hobbit movies for an Italian publication. I'm trying to find an official source for the fact that Christopher Tolkien and the Tolkien Estate forbid PJ from using sources other than Hobbit and LOTR. I've searched the TORN blog and the forums, but I haven't been able to find an article or post detailing the situation. Maybe I'm just dumb?

I'm a philologist like our own Prof, having graduated in Italian Philology and being a total Anglophile and Germanophile, and this lack of sources is driving me nuts!

Thanks to everybody in advance, and remember my promise!

PS I'll let you know how my publication goes and I'll write a summary if I can!

"It seemed to them that they beheld a great queen whose dignity neither age nor beggary nor all the woe of the world had taken from her."

Known as BlackfishBlues in other universes.

(This post was edited by GrimMorwen on Feb 14 2016, 2:28pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 14 2016, 3:47pm

Post #2 of 11 (862 views)
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Well, I don't know about an official source for this... [In reply to] Can't Post

..but so far as I understand it the position is that the Tolkien Estate hold the copyright on all Tolkien's work until 70 years after his death, that is until 2 September 2043. In addition they will presumably hold the copyright on all of Christopher Tolkien's work - incuding the books of his father's work that he has edited - until 70 years after Christopher Tolkien's death, and he is still alive.

JRR Tolkien sold film rights on The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Film rights are a limited part of his copyright; the rest - the right to produce new editions of the books, works based on them and so on - still belongs to the Tolkien Estate. But the film rights on those two books were sold - that's why Peter Jackson was able to make the films in the first place (and why other films were made before them) and it's why he was limited to using material from those two books. The other possible source books - Unfinished Tales, the History of Middle Earth series and The Silmarillion - are all books Christopher Tolkien edited and published after his father's death. And he has never sold film rights and appears to have no intention of doing so - his priority is to publish as much as possible of his father's work intact, without adaptation or embellishment.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


GrimMorwen
The Shire


Feb 14 2016, 3:58pm

Post #3 of 11 (856 views)
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Rights to Hobbit and more [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Dormouse, this is useful!

"It seemed to them that they beheld a great queen whose dignity neither age nor beggary nor all the woe of the world had taken from her."

Known as BlackfishBlues in other universes.


geordie
Tol Eressea

Feb 14 2016, 4:46pm

Post #4 of 11 (842 views)
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I'm glad you asked this question - [In reply to] Can't Post

- so often we see uninformed posts on the net along the lines of 'Christopher Tolkien/The Tolkien Estate have consistently REFUSED to allow pj to make more movies!!!'
- without actually saying where the posters got this information. As far as I know, there aren't any sources - if any film-makers have approached Christopher and the Estate, neither side has made this public.

Otherwise, the facts are basically as Dormouse has said above; to the best of my knowledge anyway.
.


(This post was edited by geordie on Feb 14 2016, 4:46pm)


GrimMorwen
The Shire


Feb 14 2016, 4:52pm

Post #5 of 11 (835 views)
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Rights to Hobbit and more [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Geordie! That's exactly my problem, that is an official source for C. Tolkien's refusal to use sources such as the Silmarillion and Hiistory of Middle Earth.

I guess I'll have to be vague in my essay!

"It seemed to them that they beheld a great queen whose dignity neither age nor beggary nor all the woe of the world had taken from her."

Known as BlackfishBlues in other universes.

(This post was edited by GrimMorwen on Feb 14 2016, 4:55pm)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 15 2016, 5:03am

Post #6 of 11 (734 views)
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As Dormouse said... [In reply to] Can't Post

it's not really an issue of the Estate forbidding PJ to do anything - simply the fact that only the film rights to The Hobbit and LOTR were sold, and a movie cannot be made using copyrighted material without a legal right to the material. So unless the Estate were willing to sell film rights to the other books or started making movies themselves, the contents of the other books can't be used in films. Period.

On the slightly different but related topic of the film rights themselves:

People tend to speak as if Peter Jackson was making the movies or owned the rights by himself, but that is not the case. Tolkien sold the rights to the Saul Zaentz Company (Middle-earth Enterprises). Peter Jackson had to make a deal with New Line and later Warner Brothers for financing and distribution and they had to make a licensing agreement with Zaentz in order to make the films. If the movies had not gone into production within a certain time, per the licensing agreement, they would have lost the rights to make the films and they would have reverted back to Zaentz automatically. The Tolkien Estate has no say in any of that - only in the terms of the original sale agreement which gives them rights to percentages of certain profits.

You may also be interested in Voronwë the Faithful's two articles for TORN on the Tolkien Estate vs. New Line lawsuits over payments and merchandising for the LOTR films. While they're not specifically about your question, they may shed some light on the question of why the Estate isn't likely to sell any more rights in the future. They haven't exactly been pleased about their dealings with the studios so far.

Clearing up Misconceptions about the Tolkien v. New Line Lawsuit (July 14, 2008)

Making Sense of the Latest Tolkien Lawsuit (July 16, 2013)

The lawsuits weren't against PJ, in fact Peter Jackson also sued New Line over their accounting practices.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




geordie
Tol Eressea

Feb 15 2016, 6:55pm

Post #7 of 11 (672 views)
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Tolkien did not seel the movie rights to that man Zaentz - [In reply to] Can't Post

- Tolkien and his publishers sold the rights to TH and LotR to United Artists in 1979. That man Zaentz acquired them, and started a firm called Tolkien Enterprises. He traded under that name for ages; (causing quite a lot of misdirected animosity to the Tolkien Estate by the way), and it only became 'Middle-earth Enterprises' fairly recently.
.


(This post was edited by geordie on Feb 15 2016, 6:56pm)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Feb 15 2016, 7:22pm

Post #8 of 11 (659 views)
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1969 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm pretty sure that is what you meant to say and you just made a typo, but just to be clear, the two agreements that were entered into with UA by the trust company representing Tolkien and the publishers were back in 1969, not 1979 (which of course was well after Tolkien's death).

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


geordie
Tol Eressea

Feb 15 2016, 8:13pm

Post #9 of 11 (647 views)
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Thanks - [In reply to] Can't Post

- yup; typo. 1969 it is.
Smile


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 16 2016, 2:45am

Post #10 of 11 (611 views)
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Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

I merely meant to point out that he holds the rights now, but it was incorrect to say that they were sold to him. Thanks for the clarification.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




GrimMorwen
The Shire


Feb 16 2016, 11:49am

Post #11 of 11 (584 views)
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Thag you very buch everybody [In reply to] Can't Post

I did find Voronwë's two articles with my original search but I confess I got a bit lost. Anyway now my head is clearer and maybe I'll manage to send my essay, er, only a few months after the deadline. Thanks again!

"It seemed to them that they beheld a great queen whose dignity neither age nor beggary nor all the woe of the world had taken from her."

Known as BlackfishBlues in other universes.

 
 

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