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Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell
Feb 9 2016, 7:17pm
Post #1 of 33
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Dwarves that don't ACT like dwarves?
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So we've discussed beard length ad nauseam, but let's talk about the NON-PHYSICAL dwarf characteristics based on Tolkien's descriptions - were they done "right?"
Do you have issues with their personality traits? Or were PJ's dwarves spot on?
Are you OK with them being portrayed as heroes despite the "dwarves are not heroes" line in the book?
Which character do you think exemplifies dwarf qualities the best? The worst?
Justice for Fili
(This post was edited by Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf on Feb 9 2016, 7:26pm)
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ange1e4e5
Gondor
Feb 9 2016, 7:20pm
Post #2 of 33
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Gloin probably exemplified dwarves the best
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He's stout, stubborn, loves gold, got a big beard, and carries an ax.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 9 2016, 7:34pm
Post #3 of 33
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Well, some of the dwarves were always supposed to have been experienced fighters. I actually like that Jackson had Thorin and Company start out better equipped than as Tolkien described them. They shouldn't have necessarily had much in the way of armor, but they should have at least had more in the way of weapons than knives and maybe a couple of bows.
We define a hero by our own cultural and individual standards. By dwarven standards Thorin's company might be fairly heroic. And that's okay.
Best (most typical) Dwarves? Probably Glóin, Balin and Dwalin. Bofur, Bombur and Bifur might stand out as representing a different clan of Dwarves.
Worst? Ori could have at least had a real sling instead of a slingshot, but I found Dori's quirks more irritating than charming.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Gandalf the Green
Rivendell
Feb 9 2016, 8:09pm
Post #4 of 33
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I agree that Gloin is the most dwarfish according to Tolkien's works (both physically and non-physically).
I don't find Bombur, Bofur and Dori very dwarfish. Or Ori, at that, who was too much like a human child, if you ask me. I'm not sure about Kili and Fili. I guess Fili was fine, but I didn't like the character of Kili very much at all, partially because his acting was overly-enthusiastic or just plain overdone in several scenes, and.. well, also because of the elf romance.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Feb 9 2016, 8:12pm
Post #5 of 33
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I really don't know, as I've only read The Hobbit and LoTR, and scarcely remember them. But if I compare the Dwarves in PJ's version with what I remember from the book, I'd have to say no, and really, I'm pretty glad about it. The Dwarves in the book seemed like bumbling idiots, ill-prepared and somewhat cowardly, expecting the little Hobbit to do all the heavy lifting. I much prefer the brave warriors we got in the movie. But also the movie touched upon their craftsmanship - and in FoTR, that was also mentioned in the halls of Moria, being such a beautiful place. I can't remember if that craftsmanship was ever mentioned in the book, but probably was mentioned in some of Tolkien's other writing. (It seems to me that Tolkien definitely favored the Elves over the Dwarves, and some would argue that PJ did, too ) Finally, there's the subject of greed. Yes, that was mentioned in the book, and if I remember correctly Thorin wasn't the only one who felt it - although apparently he was the only one in the movie. And his Dwarves were so loyal that they'd follow him into battle against Bard and Thranduil, knowing they wouldn't likely survive. I don't know if that's a quality expressed in the book, either - although Gimli certainly displayed both the fierce warrior AND the loyal companion in LoTR, didn't he? I'll have to defer to Otaku-Sempei on this subject!
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dormouse
Half-elven
Feb 9 2016, 8:18pm
Post #6 of 33
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...are with this constant battery of 'what else can we knock about the dwarves' threads! 
I think Peter Jackson and his co-writers, the actors and the designers made a superb job of taking Tolkien's not very well differentiated band of thirteen and made them into distinct characters that the audience could recognise quickly and, if well-disposed to the films, could come to know and care about before the end. That much seems obvious to me from the number of threads we've had praising the perfection of Bilbo's parting from the dwarves, the singing of Misty Moutains in AUJ: threads demanding more time spent on the dwarves, particularly Fili: thread praising Balin or Dwalin, and championing Thorin's many - er - admirable attributes. The dawrves are real characters now, albeit imagined far beyond their book roles.
I'm not just OK with them, I really enjoy them. I know what is and isn't in the book and it doesn't bother me. I can tell the difference between a book and a film.
Besides, I think it's worth considering how the films have developed a whole culture for the dwarves into which the individual characters fit, and I honestly believe it does rest on the foundations Tolkien laid. You only have to listen to all the discussions of dwarf culture in the EEs to see how much respect was paid to the books, and how much everyone cared about the end result. So I'd say they all exemplify their own aspects of dwarf qualities - just as we all exemplify different human qualities. And three cheers for them!
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Feb 9 2016, 8:20pm
Post #7 of 33
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Best & worst "Dwarvish" qualities
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I think I'd go with Bifur for "best," since he's the only one that actually made anything - that brief scene in the mountains where he was messing with a toy. Bofur also apparently worked as a miner. Worst, hmmm - I liked Kili, but I think I'm going to have to go with him, although I'm pretty sure Phillipa Boyens described him as being the "least Dwarvish" and maybe even part Elf (as if!), so that was pretty deliberate. Yeah, Ori's slingshot was pretty annoying, I kept saying "someone give him a REAL weapon," but obviously it was done for comic effect and he did get a real weapon later.
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LSF
Gondor
Feb 9 2016, 8:30pm
Post #8 of 33
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They all act like dwarves.
There seems to be a stereotype of what a dwarf is supposed to be. Why should all dwarves we see in movies have to be that stereotype to be considered a "real" dwarf?
They can be money-driven, romantic, naive, headstrong, quiet, boisterous, rough, sophisticated... just like a population of real people. In terms of giving us a group that felt like a real group of people, PJ was spot-on.
Though I suppose if we're judging by the stereotype, Gloin is most like that. I'd say Ori is the least.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 9 2016, 8:31pm
Post #9 of 33
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Yeah, Ori's slingshot was pretty annoying, I kept saying "someone give him a REAL weapon," but obviously it was done for comic effect and he did get a real weapon later.
I'll admit I could have done with a little less comic effect.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Feb 9 2016, 8:36pm
Post #10 of 33
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Dain was a character I didn't much care for in the book - he shows up at next to the last minute and somehow gets everything, which I thought unfair, and his statement to Bilbo about "not being able to honor the old agreement" always rubbed me the wrong way. But Dain in the movie was a very enjoyable character - one thing PJ & Co know how to do is cast a movie! I found myself not nearly as unhappy about Dain being crowned King, even if I still hated that lousy ending for the Durins (sniff! ). And then in the Appendices where they talked about Dain and the Dwarves, how it was mentioned that Sauron tried to bribe Dain and Dain replied "the Dwarves cannot be bought," well, that was terrific!
And I've said before that movie Thorin is VERY different from book Thorin - not just because of the obvious, but movie Thorin was someone I could really root for, and feel bad for when he did fall. Book Thorin was just some stuffy ol' git - no, I didn't care for him in the least! But that scene in AUJ during the Warg chase, where Thorin stood on the rock and waited until all his men got to safety first, well, there is someone I could follow. There is someone I could call "King."
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Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell
Feb 9 2016, 8:49pm
Post #12 of 33
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Aww, I don't want to knock them and be harsh and negative...
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...this constant battery of 'what else can we knock about the dwarves' threads!
Nah, no hate from me - I LOVE the dwarves! But I was curious what others thought, especially those who take the book as the final word. Obviously they won't all have the same personalities, but there are certain traits I think of - stubbornness, jealousy, loyalty, greed, secretive nature - regarding dwarves.
I think to an extent they all portray certain characteristics that are "typical" of their race. Although some have a chance to show it off more than others.
Justice for Fili
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
Feb 9 2016, 11:34pm
Post #13 of 33
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The Dwarves in the book seemed like bumbling idiots, ill-prepared and somewhat cowardly, expecting the little Hobbit to do all the heavy lifting. I much prefer the brave warriors we got in the movie.
So what have you got against bumbling idiots? Why can't we have a film about them?
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Feb 10 2016, 12:34am
Post #14 of 33
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Thorin was as I pictured him when reading the book (perhaps it was partly to do with the blue clothing), and I also think Balin was superb.
My least favourite was probably Kili, since he just looked like a human and didn't appear to have any Dwarven qualities.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Feb 10 2016, 12:57am
Post #15 of 33
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But to be honest, I think there's LOTS of movies about bumbling idiots - aren't they doing a sequel to "Zoolander?"
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Feb 10 2016, 1:41am
Post #17 of 33
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"They are a tough, thrawn race for the most part, secretive, laborious, retentive of the memory of injuries (and of benefits), lovers of stone, of gems, of things that take shape under the hands of the craftsmen rather than things that live by their own life. But are not evil by nature, and few ever served the Enemy of free will, whatever the tales of Men alleged."
As far as the films go, I'd say Dwalin and Gloin fit this description the best.
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Feb 10 2016, 1:53am
Post #18 of 33
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I think the movies did a good job
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Tolkien's books give us quite a variety of dwarf characteristics and personality traits and I think the movie captured that very well.
In LOTR Gimli fights fearlessly on the battlefield, is almost paralyzed with fear on the Paths of the Dead, is quite poetic when describing the Crystal Caverns, jokes good naturedly with Legolas and the hobbits as they smoke and relax outside Isengard, is a loyal friend and companion, and adores Galadriel from afar in a classic chivalrous and romantic manner.
In the Hobbit the dwarves run a whole gamut of behavior - singing and playing instruments in Bag End, being captured rather easily several times and having to be rescued, hanging back while Bilbo goes into Erebor alone, but then at the end bursting out of Erebor and fighting fiercely in a terrible battle.
Elsewhere Tolkien tells us that some dwarves served the dark lord, other dwarf tribes flatly refused to serve the dark lord, that there were dwarves who waged brutal wars against both orcs and elves, sometimes justified and sometimes not, and in the Sil we have the petty dwarf Mim who just by himself runs the whole gamut of love for his sons, anger, fear, greed, friendship and betrayal.
All things considered, I just don't see how anyone can say that a dwarf "acts" a certain way, when Tolkien made it so clear that his dwarves had as much variety and breadth of characteristics as humans do, so kudos to PJ for giving us so many different looks and personalities to express all that variety on film.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Feb 10 2016, 11:07pm
Post #19 of 33
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an image I have posted before....
As, IMO, all if this is perfectly captured by the PJ's handling of the line of Durin.
For myself, off and on I've idly pondered how I might have responded to the dwarves had they been characterized as the "13 hairy squares" that Philippa Boyens mentions. Since that didn't happen, for myself, I suppose my attitude might have been dismissive. Because I remember the first time I saw Yoda bouncing around like a green CGI ball fighting a full grown man; it's a serious scene, but I thought it was ludicrous. Assuming the Hobbit movies were supposed to be taken seriously, 13 little chunky Gimlis marching across the landscape wasn't going to hold my interest, probably.
Or I might have felt positive about it, thinking how whimsical all this is. Yeah, it's just like the book ! But then my whole feeling about the films is likely to be different, because I won't be able to get the word "cute" out of my head. It's not that that is bad, but for me it might have been like watching one of the better animated features. (And I also would have continued to view Bard as *&^%$, as I didn't like him so much in the book).
Ultimately, for this version of the Hobbit, I suppose I feel exactly as PJ and Philippa intended the audience to feel - dwarves, and dwarves you could INVEST in emotionally. Dwarves you could relate to and care about, and who were not always given the comic treatment Gimli received (which IMO was NOT who he was in the book, and the Hobbit dwarves to me are more akin to the "LOTR dwarves", what little we see of them.) A king where it MATTERED to the audience that he got where he was trying to go, and wasn't just some old crank, or another Theoden (and the movie Theoden was a heck of a shock to me, compared to the "kindly old man" Theoden described in the book OMG; tho I love the LOTR character).
The best recent comparison I have is the "Snow White/Huntsman" dwarves. IMO definitely "dwarfy" and treated with dignity, so while there are comic aspects they are not the "Hi Ho, Hi Ho" dwarves either. But they are not main characters through a whole film.
In the end, I think PJ & co. knew exactly what they were doing re the dwarves , for the story THEY wanted to tell, and gave the more "serious" dwarves like Thorin, Balin, Dwalin, Fili, Kili etc. the Norse fierceness and dignity that Tolkien based the race on. Like that beautiful bust of a Norseman? dwarf? that was done by one of the WETA sculptors and is in the film Appendices.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Feb 11 2016, 5:43pm
Post #20 of 33
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Ooooh, I'd LUV to see that bust!
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Some of the Weta statues are so good, admittedly a few miss the mark. I love the recent Elrond, such good action - also Fili, Gloin, and Dwalin's statues are good (too bad I can't afford them!). Can you tell me which Appendices?
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Feb 11 2016, 5:46pm
Post #21 of 33
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All of them - to the last Dwarf!
Just Fili-ing the love today, I guess 
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(This post was edited by Kilidoescartwheels on Feb 11 2016, 5:48pm)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Feb 11 2016, 5:53pm
Post #22 of 33
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Compared to the Rankin-Bass film
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I used to have that movie, I bought it for my daughters when they were little (they're all grown up now). Honestly I can barely remember that movie, all I can remember is they all had round noses. I'd kind of like to watch it again, just to compare the two. Seems that the cartoon was pretty close to the book - which I apparently also don't remember all that well, hmmm. Maybe I'll just stick with PJ's vision, I've practically got all the dialog memorized anyway!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 11 2016, 6:01pm
Post #23 of 33
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The Rankin/Bass special was so abbreviated that it had to leave out both Beorn and the entire Arkenstone subplot. Visually, it did have a Germanic fairy-tale quality, but the character designs, particularly for the Elvenking and Wood-elves, were a bit funky.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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DainPig
Gondor
Feb 11 2016, 8:32pm
Post #24 of 33
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The elves in the rankin/bass edition looked like frogs or something
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
Hey guys, this is my blog: dainpigblog.blogspot.com
Dain Ironfoot has come!! And his pig's here too! It's going to be a great feast tonight, we are gonna eat Dain's pig! :0
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 11 2016, 8:38pm
Post #25 of 33
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I have sometimes wondered if one or both of the character designers had somehow conflated Wood-elves with Ents.
Froggy would be a better description for Gollum in the animated movie! 
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Nicely said IMO and will add
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