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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Feb 7 2016, 11:55pm
Post #1 of 18
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The Two Towers Reading schedule The Forbidden Pool
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Frodo is awoken by Faramir who requests Frodo's advice. This in itself is a it bit suspicious, why should Faramir seek Frodo's advice Lin the middle,of the night? Anyway, he with Sam go along with Faramir with shining moon and the mountains of Gondor as a backdrop. Just a little point about the book in general is that the mountains of Gondor do serve as a backdrop during much of it. Though this is the closest view.
Through there they see a cold view and the forbidden pool. Sam is present as well but unsummouned. How many times does this happen in this story? In fact does Frodo go anywhere without Sam? Anyway a glass of wine amends it, which is nice, but is this the wisest brew if it is early in the morning? Or, doesn't Sam long for a simple beer at some stage, but I suppose this is the next best thing. They see Gollum, surprise, surprise and the sentinels ask to fire. But Gollum here does go against his advice own advice and is a little careless. Can anyone think of what this could be?
And judging by the amount of ssss in his talking, the mention of fish and of we and us, this is back to Very Gollum, yes?
(This post was edited by Hamfast Gamgee on Feb 8 2016, 12:07am)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Feb 8 2016, 6:59am
Post #2 of 18
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"In fact, does Frodo go anywhere without Sam?"
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After Sam joins Frodo's quest, not too often. Frodo is briefly alone in the Barrow-downs before being taken like his fellows. He "goes" invisible alone at Weathertop. He rides ahead on Asfaloth at the ford. He has a conversation in Bilbo's rooms while Sam remains in the Hall of Fire. He is alone on Amon Hen when he makes up his mind to depart the company and nearly leaves Sam in the process. Sam decides to leave Frodo when he believes Frodo to be dead at the pass of Cirith Ungol, and they are separated for some hours while Frodo is held prisoner. There is a brief separation at the Sammath Naur. And of course, Frodo leaves Sam at the Grey Havens.
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sador
Half-elven
Feb 8 2016, 8:44am
Post #3 of 18
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It is always great to hear (read) from you, and it has been long overdue.
After the Ring is destroyed, there are several such occasions. Sam is not mentioned in the whole of The Steward and the King, if I remember correctly (although this is no proof that he did not accompany Frodo everywhere); Frodo alone was summoned to Aragorn and Arwen before leaving Minas Tirith (did Sam eavesdrop again? I guess not), and Frodo alone heard Elrond's last words, hinting that Bilbo and hmself will be leaving for the Havens.
Later Sam leaves Frodo on his own initiative several times - in Homeward Bound he goes to visit Bill the pony in his stable; in The Scouring of the Shire he goes to the Cottons' home while Frodo stays with Pippin and Merry (and later to the Gaffer? I think so, but do not remember for sure); and in The Grey Havens he is often out and about - including the day in which Frodo is taken ill.
But of course, one might argue that Frodo did not leave Sam on those occasions, but was left by him - pretty much like in the high pass of Cirith Ungol.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 8 2016, 9:56am
Post #4 of 18
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Advice, or is the interrogation continuing?
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Does Faramir really need to get Frodo up in the middle of the night - or is this a good way of catching a guest/prisoner off his guard (& possibly hungover)?
I can read it either way, and can imagine that the answer is "a bit of both"
The mysterious creature (mysterious from Faramir's point of view) has found the pool, and may know where the hideout is. This is an urgent military matter, since the creature can't be allowed to take that information to the enemy.
On the other hand I'm pretty sure Faramir knows Frodo hasn't told him everything about Gollum, and perhaps doing things this way is a way of interrogating Frodo further about this point. There's such a thing as "trust and verify" even is Faramir is by now basically convinced that Frodo is an ally.
Thanks for leading this one HG, especially since it is so soon after Herbs & Stewed rabbit!
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started! All Book IV chapters now taken, but volunteers are needed for ROTK http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe
17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j
24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee http://goo.gl/QIEN7C 2; http://goo.gl/FwZoyQ 3:http://goo.gl/134LDY
31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/wYvYDE
07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Hamfast Gamgee
14-Feb-16 # VII # Journey to the Cross-roads # Mironiel
21-Feb-16 # VIII # The Stairs of Cirith Ungol # squire
28-Feb-16 # IX # Shelob's Lair # enanito
06-Mar-16 # X # The Choices of Master Samwise # Surprise Chapter Leader "End G.I. Bran"
(Easter 2016 is March 27)
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 8 2016, 11:27am
Post #5 of 18
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I keep noting references to the moon in this book. And Ithilien derives its name from the name of the moon, as does Minas Ithil, the name of the city before it became Minas Morgul. I'm not sure what to make of this.
Maybe not a lot - Tolkien has been using the moon as a (perfectly realistic) way of our journeying heroes keeping track of time. Perhaps it's being drawn to our attention in this book especially since Tolkien was taking pains to co-ordinate the two threads of his narrative at this point. If I recall from History of Midle -earth, it's clear that JRR was keeping track of the moon himself in order not to introduce a timing blunder (e.g. Frodo sees a full moon on the same day Aragorn sees a different phase) So perhaps he was aware of the moon phases from this effort, realised that Ithilien had a sort of moon theme anyway, and so highlighted the moon in his writing more than usual?
WHy a moon theme for Ithilien anyway? As a mundane suggestion, the moon looks bigger when close to the horizon (The Moon Illusion - explanatory video here http://earthsky.org/...eo-the-moon-illusion ). Maybe Ithilien offers notable views of the moon against Gondor's mountains, hence the name of this province?
So much for mundane explanations. Or maybe the moon can be read as having some other significance that I've not realised (mythical, psychological etc.)? If anyone thinks so I'd be interested to hear your interpretation!
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started! All Book IV chapters now taken, but volunteers are needed for ROTK http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe
17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j
24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee http://goo.gl/QIEN7C 2; http://goo.gl/FwZoyQ 3:http://goo.gl/134LDY
31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/wYvYDE
07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Hamfast Gamgee
14-Feb-16 # VII # Journey to the Cross-roads # Mironiel
21-Feb-16 # VIII # The Stairs of Cirith Ungol # squire
28-Feb-16 # IX # Shelob's Lair # enanito
06-Mar-16 # X # The Choices of Master Samwise # Surprise Chapter Leader "End G.I. Bran"
(Easter 2016 is March 27)
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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sador
Half-elven
Feb 8 2016, 12:22pm
Post #7 of 18
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Let me see...
A Long-expected Party has the debate between the Gaffer, Sandyman et. al.
A Knife in the Dark has the raid on Crickhollow, and the escape of Fatty Bolger.
The Road to Isengard has Erkenbrand and the Dunlendings (well, four of the Fellowship were around, so they might have witnessed that).
The Battle of the Pelennor Fields - Merry was not even near enough, to witness Eomer's last stand; and I am pretty sure that he was in no state to properly 'witness' Imrahil's meeting the bearers of Theoden and Eowyn.
But yes, I agree the beginning of The Steward and the King is the only significant such portion. This is doubtlessly a part of Tolkien's shift towards a story focused on the delivery of Men from the fear of the Dark Lord, rather than a Quest undertaken by hobbits.
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squire
Half-elven
Feb 8 2016, 1:11pm
Post #8 of 18
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The Moon, like the Sun, is an extremely powerful image in human life. The number of things it could be said to relate to has probably filled more than a few books.
I agree with you that Tolkien is making a connection between the appearances of the Moon in the night sky, with his choice to identify the land of Ithilien with it: Ithil, after all, means Moon.
But I've done several discussions about Book IV over the years here, have had a lot of chances to read and think about the question, and I've never felt I had the "angle" on just what the connection is supposed to mean, with regard to Frodo's journey to Mordor in a land that was formerly part of Gondor (good) but is now occupied by Mordor (bad).
One connection that you didn't mention (yet) is that the two sons of Elendil are the original founders of the two Gondorian provinces on the banks of Anduin: Anarion settled Anorien and built Minas Anor (Tower of the Sun, later renamed Minas Tirith), and Isildur settled Ithilien and built Minas Ithil (Tower of the Moon, now Minas Morgul). Both heavenly bodies travel from East to West across the sky, rising and setting as they do, so it's hard to say why Ithilien is the eastern bank (rising Moon out of the East, birthplace of the Children of Eru and now dominated by the spirit of Morgoth) and Anorien is in the west (setting Sun - over Elvenhome and Valinor across the Sea). The Moon is a darker force, being a light in an otherwise dark sky - but its light is Silver, and replicates the light of the White Tree, which was the first and stronger light in the Elder Days - because the Elves were born in the Night and are not afraid of it. Thus to say Ithilien is East because the Moon is darker and more adept to the spirit of Sauron and his Nazgul, is to state an identity, but not a cause. As we know, Tolkien makes a point of refusing to reduce everything to allegorical symbolism: some of his good things are black and take place at night, and some of his bad things are white and take place under the sun.
The reason, I think, that this puzzle is so complicated is two-fold. One, Tolkien never develops the nature of Anorien in anything like the detail that he devotes to Ithilien in Book IV. The equivalent place in the book is Rohan, Book III's setting, which balances Gondor as a whole. Two, as I have developed elsewhere, I think Tolkien did intend to make Ithilien a wholly creepy, haunted landscape in keeping with the dark aspects of the Moon and the Tower of Sorcery that had replaced Isildur's creation. This was to pick up on the symbolism that it was Isildur who had first seized, and misused the Ring. But as he was writing Book IV, Tolkien began to develop the history of Gondor and to create the character of Faramir. The entire chapter began to incorporate images of ancientry, decayed classicism, post-pastoral nature, and the idea that only from the East can one have a clear view of the West. So the imagery of the Moon as an 'evil' theme in Book IV kind of dissolved into something far more complex, leading to the kind of confusion your post and mine are wrestling with!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 8 2016, 1:39pm
Post #9 of 18
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...of passages that are free of Fellowship members! I did forget a few, didn't I 
I suppose that the Faramir & Eowyn scene stands out for me because it isn't very much at all to do with the other plots - it's not part of a battle or some other event in which the Fellowship are engaged (even if they are down the other end of the field). Tolkien has these two non-Fellowship characters & decides to give us a close-up view of how they each provide the other with a happy ending. It's a fairly stand-alone piece of action.
The raid on Crickhollow is perhaps the most stand-alone of the other examples. But it is something to do with Frodo because it shows how he only just got away in time. And it was once more to do with the action, as in earlier drafts I believe Gandalf disrupts the raid, & carries Mr Bolger off to Weathertop and then Rivendell.
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started! All Book IV chapters now taken, but volunteers are needed for ROTK http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe
17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j
24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee http://goo.gl/QIEN7C 2; http://goo.gl/FwZoyQ 3:http://goo.gl/134LDY
31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/wYvYDE
07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Hamfast Gamgee
14-Feb-16 # VII # Journey to the Cross-roads # Mironiel
21-Feb-16 # VIII # The Stairs of Cirith Ungol # squire
28-Feb-16 # IX # Shelob's Lair # enanito
06-Mar-16 # X # The Choices of Master Samwise # Surprise Chapter Leader "End G.I. Bran"
(Easter 2016 is March 27)
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 8 2016, 3:55pm
Post #10 of 18
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"I marvel at the creature: so secret and so sly as he is, to come sporting in the pool before our very window. Does he think that men sleep without watch all night? Why does he so?"
Frodo is awoken by Faramir who requests Frodo's advice. This in itself is a it bit suspicious, why should Faramir seek Frodo's advice Lin the middle,of the night?
Typical interrogation technique of “stress and distress” where a prisoner is woken in the middle of the night for interrogation. According to most legal opinions it's technically not torture. ("Most".) Even as we speak it’s being used today (or rather tonight) around the world from Chicago to Bagdad: Police/military break into a house in the middle of the night, wake everyone up, and interrogate them. The theory is that it’s harder to lie when mentally fatigued. However there is also evidence sleep deprivation can induce false memories, and thus this technique can produce false confessions.
Interestingly, Signals Officer Tolkien might well have performed some prisoner interrogations. Once captured German prisoners would be under the custody of the Signals Officer. Normally he would see to transporting the prisoners to the rear for formal interrogation as soon as possible. However, under some circumstances that might not be possible. (Say, the prisoners are brought in just before dawn, and any movement in the trenches during daylight hours would bring down an artillery barrage, so they’d have to wait the whole day for cover of darkness.) Interrogation of prisoners is most effective during the first couple of hours of capture as that’s when men are the most cooperative, what with being scared, disoriented, and fearful of being killed out of hand. So in such circumstances it would have been up to 2nd Lieutenant Tolkien to strike when the iron was hot.
Anyway, he with Sam go along with Faramir with shining moon and the mountains of Gondor as a backdrop. Just a little point about the book in general is that the mountains of Gondor do serve as a backdrop during much of it. Though this is the closest view.
In today’s culture the sun is seen as masculine while the moon is seen as feminine. However, in older cultures (such as Anglo-Saxon) it’s the opposite. So we might see Frodo and Sam leaving the nurturing feminine force behind with Lothlorien, and entering the more savage masculine influence with the entry into Ithilien.
Through there they see a cold view and the forbidden pool. Sam is present as well but unsummouned. How many times does this happen in this story?
He is the stealth hobbit.
In fact does Frodo go anywhere without Sam?
Yes, and usually to his disadvantage.
Anyway a glass of wine amends it, which is nice, but is this the wisest brew if it is early in the morning?
Without any food in the stomach alcohol goes directly into the bloodstream. Up to 20% will go directly to the brain within a minute. A person can then become confused and pliable to questioning. And when Gollum is later is brought forth and sees Frodo and Sam comfortably sitting and drinking wine with his captors the cozy tableaux short circuits any “prisoner’s dilemma” possibility of Gollum lying to cover for the hobbits. Faramir thus drives a far more formidable and destructive wedge of distrust between the hobbits and Gollum than Sam’s little “sneaking” comment ever could.
Faramir is not the nice person everyone thinks him to be.
Or, doesn't Sam long for a simple beer at some stage, but I suppose this is the next best thing. They see Gollum, surprise, surprise and the sentinels ask to fire. But Gollum here does go against his advice own advice and is a little careless. Can anyone think of what this could be?
I’d say he wants to be captured.
I mean, Gollum has tracked the Ring, then the Fellowship, and then Frodo across Middle-earth and back. It seems totally unlikely that he would have somehow lost the scent in Ithilien.
Gollum wants to be found, to be taken where Frodo is, and, most importantly, find out who now has the Ring. The Ring is why he left The Misty Mountains, entered Mordor, braved Shelob’s cave, entered Moria, swam the Anduin, and attacked Frodo and Sam at Emyn Muil. So a ragtag band of Rangers is not going to give him the slightest pause. Besides, he’s been to Ithilien before so I’d wager he’d thoroughly scouted out the Rangers and Henneth Annun back then and without being detected.
And judging by the amount of ssss in his talking, the mention of fish and of we and us, this is back to Very Gollum, yes?
I really don’t think he ever left.
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Fimbrethil, Warrior Entwife
Sez: "Why don't we terraform Earth? It's closer."
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Feb 8 2016, 7:14pm
Post #11 of 18
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Faramir is not the nice person everyone thinks him to be. Given that Tolkien wrote that Faramir was the character most like himself, are we to understand Faramir, in your interpretation, as self-criticism?
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 8 2016, 7:32pm
Post #12 of 18
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What I meant, and thought Chris meant, and am almost sure you meant, was that the TCBS had been granted some spark of fire –certainly as a body if not singly – that was destined to kindle a new light, or, what is the same thing, rekindle an old light in the world; that the TCBS was destined to testify for God and Truth in a more direct way even than by laying down its several lives in this war (which is for all the evil of our own side with large view good against evil)..
-Letter #5
An ultimately evil job. For we are attempting to conquer Sauron with the Ring. And we shall (it seems) succeed. But the penalty is, as you will know, to breed new Saurons, and slowly turn Men and Elves into Orcs.
-Letter #66
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Fimbrethil, Warrior Entwife
Sez: "Why don't we terraform Earth? It's closer."
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Feb 9 2016, 3:44am
Post #13 of 18
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(as Bilbo once observed)
Faramir definitely knows what he's about. He has good reason to wake Frodo in the middle of the night, true, but notice that he is quick to take full advantage of the situation. He is brusque and demanding with the weary Frodo. He has no compunction about pressuring his "guest" into capturing Gollum. And it works. I also think it was no accident that (last chapter) he lured Sam into revealing more than Sam should have. And I have no doubt that the wine was used deliberately to help put the Hobbits off their guard.
Still, I have no problem with his methods, and I love the keen edge of this character that Tolkien shows us. Nice? No, not nice, but Faramir simply doesn't have time for being nice. Nor does he have the luxury of being lax. There is far too much at stake. He needs answers. Now. And Tolkien shows us that this man knows how to get them. The great thing about Faramir is that he has the integrity to use his personal power without abusing it. He does what is necessary to find all the answers he seeks (and not only seeks but is duty bound to find), and then he lets the three companions go on their way.
He doesn't like letting them go, either. He warns Frodo that he thinks it "very unwise" to be guided by Gollum. And I think he must know that his father, the Steward, would not approve of letting the three go. But, just as we are shown that Frodo is not simply blind in his decision to show trust to Gollum, we are shown that Faramir is not simply soft-hearted in his judgment here.
"Good Morning!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 9 2016, 12:28pm
Post #14 of 18
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Gollum wants to be captured - interesting reading!
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I’d say he wants to be captured.
I mean, Gollum has tracked the Ring, then the Fellowship, and then Frodo across Middle-earth and back. It seems totally unlikely that he would have somehow lost the scent in Ithilien.
Gollum wants to be found, to be taken where Frodo is, and, most importantly, find out who now has the Ring. The Ring is why he left The Misty Mountains, entered Mordor, braved Shelob’s cave, entered Moria, swam the Anduin, and attacked Frodo and Sam at Emyn Muil. So a ragtag band of Rangers is not going to give him the slightest pause. Besides, he’s been to Ithilien before so I’d wager he’d thoroughly scouted out the Rangers and Henneth Annun back then and without being detected.
I think that's entirely reasonable as a reading. It has an interesting effect. Frodo seems to think that Gollum is unwittingly in danger of death and that he (Frodo) must rescue him, at the risk of appearing to play Gollum false. This gives Frodo a moral dilemma, and previously I'd read the chapter such that this dilemma is an important point. Frodo could allow Gollum to be killed, and rationalize that there wasn't anything he could do about it, or that it was all for the best. It is reminiscent of Frodo's brief temptation into the Barrow to escape using the Ring, abandoning the other hobbits to their fate. I'll have fun thinking about how this changes if Gollum has deliberately put himself up for capture!
As one preliminary thought, the Movie scriptwriting theme use Gollum's capture as a means by which the Stinker/Gollum personality can regain the upper hand from the Slinker/Smeagol personality, arguing that Frodo has been a betrayer and can be paid back in kind. I'm not sure it's that explicit in the book (must re-read to see!) But if so, one starts wondering about whether Stinker/Gollum might have engineered this whole process.
Anyway, he's lucky not just to get shot through with a bunch of broad-head arrows!
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started! All Book IV chapters now taken, but volunteers are needed for ROTK http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe
17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j
24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee http://goo.gl/QIEN7C 2; http://goo.gl/FwZoyQ 3:http://goo.gl/134LDY
31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/wYvYDE
07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Hamfast Gamgee
14-Feb-16 # VII # Journey to the Cross-roads # Mironiel
21-Feb-16 # VIII # The Stairs of Cirith Ungol # squire
28-Feb-16 # IX # Shelob's Lair # enanito
06-Mar-16 # X # The Choices of Master Samwise # Surprise Chapter Leader "End G.I. Bran"
(Easter 2016 is March 27)
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Feb 11 2016, 2:11am
Post #15 of 18
(2249 views)
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It is an interesting reading (Gollum letting himself be caught), and the thought occurred to me also as I read, but I have my doubts. He is still trying to track the Precious, of course, but I think the Rangers have truly given Gollum the slip here. Frodo and Sam had arrived at Henneth Annun by sunset, and Anborn had Gollum stuck up in a tree until after dusk. I imagine it would have been difficult for Gollum to track one wary ranger after dark, and there is also other evidence. When we first hear Gollum soliloquizing at the pool, he seems genuinely at a loss to me - speaking of throttling them all, if he ever gets the chance, that is. I don't think he realizes how close he is just then to either Man or Hobbit.
And as far as knowing about Henneth Annun from his earlier foray into Ithilien, I have to trust in Faramir's mind-reading skills. With one glance into Gollum's eyes, Faramir is aware of a great deal that is going on in Gollum's head. If Faramir believes Gollum when he says that he has never been to Henneth Annun before, I guess I will too.
He may have tracked Anborn in the dark, but I don't think so. His words make me think that he has lost the trail. And also, he certainly doesn't submit to capture easily when it comes to that. I think Gollum's fear of a band of Men is too great to allow himself to be captured by them. I get the feeling that what brought Gollum to Henneth Annun was simply and coincidentally the river.
"Good Morning!"
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Feb 12 2016, 9:48pm
Post #16 of 18
(2214 views)
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I'm of the same mind. I think Gollum only finds Frodo's lair by accident and/or fate. He certainly *does* want to rejoin Frodo, but I think in this situation, he's genuinely on his own and just pursuing food, figuring he can track the hobbits later when he's eaten and they are at large without a lot of Men around to interfere with their scent. Gollum seems too plain surprised at his capture to really have wanted it to happen, though maybe subconsciously he did.
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Apr 12 2017, 5:32am
Post #17 of 18
(1512 views)
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I'm going to have to read through this a few more times to absorb into my old grey matter... but when you reached the area of how the story of Ithilien changed from, essentially, falling into darkness until Faramir was created and came into the story touched on that which I've always loved or noticed about him. Just as how Faramir remains himself (scholar, student, intellectual, nurturer) even when overtaken by a warrior father and matched with a warrior brother... Ithilien, born of the beauty and purity of a green country of waterfalls and soft beauty is unchanged by the evil that surrounds it and tries to overtake it. For Faramir to defend the lands in Ithilien is so fitting, imho. I see those lands and that man to be compatible. Born out when he's given charge of it in the end.
Just some fleeting thoughts inspired by your moon walk. I've often thought of the moon as being more enlightening than the sun as it must overcome the dark to shine.
We have been there and back again.
TIME Google Calendar
6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observations List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observations List - May 15, 2014
5th draft of TH:BotFA Geeky Observations List - January 30, 2015
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit
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elentari3018
Rohan
Oct 6 2023, 12:54am
Post #18 of 18
(425 views)
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can't say it better.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK
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