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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 19 2008, 11:17pm
Post #1 of 69
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The Riders of Rohan -- 7. “things that had been dropped or cast away”
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I hope my irregular posting and randomly-ordered questions this week were not too annoying. This post is a more systematic look at the chapter, in chronological order, with a fair number of leftover questions to wrap up – I don’t recommend trying to answer all of them. (In fact, I feel confident that no one will do so.)
“The Riders of Rohan” is divided into twenty sections of unequal length. Each is described briefly below. The numbers indicate the words in that section, and the size of the section as a percentage of the whole chapter.
I. “All night the companions scrambled…” (286 = 3%)
The hills that border the river are arranged in two ridges that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli must cross. They surmount the first ridge, descend into the trough between them, and lose the trail briefly on the hard ground there in the dark. Aragorn decides to turn north, guessing the orcs mean to cross Rohan to Isengard in that direction.
1. Why are the climbs gentle and the descents steep?
2. Is the phrase “unless there is much amiss in Rohan” meant to portend later troubles?
3. In this section, Aragorn is stymied, and makes a decision blindly. Why?
4. As I recall, Robin Reid has argued that Tolkien makes natural elements the agents of his sentences and phrases to a great degree, and I believe she cites this section as an example. It depends somewhat on how you diagram the sentences, but as I see it, the following words, in the following order, are the agents in this section: “dusk”, “mist”, “sky”, “stars”, “moon”, “shadows”, “they” (Hunters), “pace”, “trail”, “highlands”, “side of each ridge”, “slopes”, “companions”, “they” (companions), “moon”, “stars”, “light”, “Aragorn”, “orc-trail”, “it” (orc-trail), “they” (orcs), “Legolas”, “that” (orcs’ aim), “you” (Aragorn), “way… northward”, “way… southward”, “they” (orcs), “they”, “Aragorn”, “much”, “power of Saruman”, “they” (orcs), “they” (orcs), and “us”.
Do you think Reid is correct about this section? About this chapter? About Tolkien’s work generally? If so, what effect does that have on the reader?
II. “Here is another riddle!” (315 = 3%)
Traveling north along the trough, the Hunters find five orc bodies. Legolas supposes this may mean that the trio has allies in the hills, but Aragorn believes the dead orcs, apparently from the northern mountains, were killed by their comrades from Isengard, probably in a dispute about the direction of travel. Gimli worries about the fate of the hobbits.
5. This section seems to presage the journey of Sam and Frodo, in “The Land of Shadow”, along the valley between the Mountains of Shadow and the Morgai (the inner fence of Mordor). That is also a journey north, and also includes a dead orc. Is this a real connection, and if so, why?
6. Is there significance in the image of seeming boulders being revealed as bodies?
III. “Not yet does my road lie southward…” (372 = 3%)
As the night ends, the trio find the trail again. It leads up the second ridge, and they climb to the top. They feel oddly refreshed. As they crest the hill, there is a breeze, and dawn breaks behind them. Ahead in Rohan, “shadows… melted” and “colours… returned”. To their left, many miles away, they see the White Mountains. Aragorn wistfully recites a poem about Gondor, then turns back to their course.
7. Why are they refreshed?
8. Does a “chill wind” normally accompany daybreak in the real world? (And which way is this wind blowing?)
9. Aragorn had already decided that his path lay neither east with Frodo nor south to Minas Tirith – why does Tolkien have him express his desire for Gondor here?
10. Does the poem bear on any further action in this chapter?
IV. “It swelled like a green sea…” (513 = 5%)
From the ridge-top, Legolas sees an high-flying eagle speeding north. Then our heroes see the orcs far out on the plains of Rohan. They follow the orcs’ trail of detritus down a cutting in the cliffside. Finding spring has reached the fields, feel refreshed as they continue their pursuit.
11. Why is the cliff called a “Wall”? Why the “strange suddenness” of separation between hills in winter and fields in spring?
12. Why show us the eagle again?
13. Who makes the hard, grey bread the orcs eat? Who makes their heavy shoes?
14. What is the connection between these “softer and warmer” fields and the groves of Ithilien? Between these “scented” lands and the stink of the Marshes on the other side of the Emyn Muil?
V. “And he had the use of his wits…” (308 = 3%)
As they run from the cliff, Aragorn sees “unshod” footprints running north-east away from the orc-path, and finds Pippin’s brooch. He deduces that Pippin dropped it as a sign. It brings hope to the Hunters, but also fear for the hobbits’ safety.
15. How is it the orcs have “blackened” the grass? Does that mean simply that they have trod it heavily into the earth, or have the stained the grass in some other way?
16. Is “Not idly do the leaves of Lórien fall” a known proverb in Middle-earth, or has Aragorn just made it up?
17. Legolas laments the hobbits being “driven like cattle”. How does he feel about cattle treated that way?
VI. “We have come at last to a hard choice” (712 = 6%)
When evening comes, the companions have traveled 36 miles northwest from the hills. They debate whether to continue on or stop for the night. Gimli wants to rest, arguing that first the orcs must rest at some point; second, the trail might turn and be lost; and third, that signs of escape would be missed. In favor of going on, Legolas responds that first; if orcs were to rest it would be by day and these have not, second, the trail runs in a straight line as far as he can see; and third, the orcs will be all the more vigilant since Pippin’s broke loose. After deliberating, Aragorn chooses to stop, fearing to miss a sign in the dark. Gimli wishes Galadriel had given them a light like Frodo’s, but Aragorn says it will be more needed on the “true Quest” than on this “small matter”.
18. Aragorn says, “You give the choice to an ill chooser… Since we passed through the Argonath my choices have gone amiss.” What have his choices been, and how have they gone wrong?
19. Does he make the right choice here?
20. Legolas says he has no idea how three pursuers will free the hobbits from so many orcs. Should the companions be looking for assistance in defeating the orcs, rather than racing to catch them, which if achieved might prove disastrous?
21. Why remind us of Frodo’s light here?
VII. “I wonder what is happening in this land!” (332 = 3%)
They rest, rising before dawn. Legolas is glum. Aragorn puts his ear to the ground, and reports that the orcs are far away, but the sound of hoofs are nearer, and that he realizes he heard them even while he slept. The three seekers then set off again.
22. Legolas is described as “thoughtful and silent as a young tree in a windless night”. An odd simile?
23. Why does Aragorn look “pale and drawn” after listening to the earth?
VIII. “They seldom spoke.” (290 = 3%)
The land slowly rises as they approach “humpbacked” downs, on their second day on the plains. They are sustained by lembas and masked by their elven-cloaks. Aragorn finds it strange that the fields are empty, where normally there would be herds and herdsmen (though most of the Rohirrim actually live far to the south).
24. Why the description of the Hunters blending into the landscape?
25. What is the “silence that did not seem to be the quiet of peace”?
IX. “But he shall not turn us back!” (315 = 3%)
A mist blocks the stars and dims the moon as the Hunters stop for the night, still shy of the downs but twice as far from the hills behind them. Legolas thinks the orcs are have reached the forest, more than 70 miles ahead; Gimli calls this a “bitter end to our hope and to all our toil”. Aragorn observes that their efforts are not ended, but also that he feels strangely tired, as if a power is dispiriting them. Legolas identifies that will as Saruman’s.
26. Aragorn suspects “even the pale Moon” – has Saruman brought clouds to the sky, or is it an illusion?
27. How does Saruman tire the trio? Is his power meant for them specifically, or is there a general spell on northern Rohan?
28. Legolas first noticed Saruman’s will 36 hours earlier – why didn’t he mention it before?
29. Is Aragorn’s reference to their “road between down and fen” merely descriptive?
X. “My legs must forget the miles.” (317 = 3%)
Legolas wakes the others at a “red dawn”; he feels they are “called”. Several hours later, they reach the southern end of the downs. Aragorn says the orcs rested there, 36 hours earlier, and explains how far they have to go to reach the forest, following the trail that now turns north along the downs.
30. This is the morning that Merry and Pippin escape, and Éomer’s men destroy the orcs. What about those events should move Legolas to interpret the red sky as tiding “strange” events at the forest?
31. Why does Aragorn say “thrice twelve hours” rather than “thirty-six hours”?
32. Aragorn guesses that 45 miles lie between the other end of these downs and the forest, but the next morning we will be told that it is 30 miles. Is this a mistake by Tolkien, or is the difference meant to show Aragorn’s fallibility? (Or did the imagined text have two different editors?)
XI. “Rede oft is found at the rising of the Sun.” (324 = 3%)
Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli travel another 24 miles by day’s end. Only Legolas is not tired, and he leads them to the crest of the last hill, but the sun sets, and they can only dimly glimpse Fangorn Forest and the Misty Mountains, still some 30 miles away. A cold north wind blows, “from the snows”, Aragorn says. Legolas counsels against losing hope.
33. Why does this last down stand apart from the rest?
34. Comment on the sentence, “They were in a grey formless world without mark or measure.”
35. Is the change in wind direction meant to signify anything but variety?
36. What are some occasions in LotR when Legolas’ aphorism, quoted above, proves true?
XII. “Aragorn saw a shadow on the distant green…” (753 = 7%)
The sky clears and the wind changes to the East as Aragorn and Gimli try to sleep, and Legolas sings. They are near to Rohan’s “Wold” highlands, away to their right, and far ahead they can see the forest and the peak of Methedras behind it. Their path now turns to follow the Entwash upstream to the forest. Looking that way, Aragorn and Legolas glimpse riders. They are still fifteen miles away, but Legolas is able to count them and even discern their hair color. Since the riders are returning along the orcs’ trail, Aragorn decides to wait for their approach, and ask for news. They descend the hill and sit down in the grass. Aragorn describes the Rohirrim: their friendship with Gondor, kinship with the Beornings and Bardings, and their primitive and illiterate, but decent nature.
37. Why does Tolkien describe this night and dawn with these words and phrases: “colder”, “hard black vault”, “bare”, “pale and clear”, “bleak”, “bitter light”?
38. What does the word “Wold” come from? Why use it?
39. The Hunters, as they recognize, have backtracked a great distance: they had seen the Wold from the River many days earlier. Tolkien didn’t have to write the story or design his map that way: why have the characters circle around like this?
40. To Legolas viewing the riders, “the glint of morning on the tips of their spears was like the twinkle of minute stars beyond the edge of mortal sight” – what kind of metaphor is that? Does Tolkien mean us to understand that elves can distinguish double stars that cannot be resolved by ordinary human eyes?
41. Why “Yellow is their hair, and bright are their spears” rather than “Their hair is yellow, and their spears are bright”?
42. Legolas says that Éomer is “very tall”. As tall as Aragorn? Who’s the tallest human character in LotR?
43. When Legolas reports no sign of hobbits among the riders, Aragorn says, “I did not say that we should hear good news”. This is rather like his comment during the debate about resting or walking by night: “I said that it was a hard choice”. How would you characterize these comments?
44. “The three companions now left the hill-top, where they might be an easy mark against the pale sky” – is Aragorn remembering the trouble at Weathertop?
45. Gimli wonders if they are “waiting for sudden death” – do you find that phrase odd?
46. Aragorn likens the riders to “the children of Men before the Dark Years”. Would the Rohirrim like being compared to children?
XIII. “They were riding like the wind.” (249 = 2%)
The Riders pass close by, singing as they go, but do not see the trio. They have blond hair and ride grey horses. At last Aragorn stands and asks for news.
47. Please comment on “a long line of mail-clad men, swift, shining, fell and fair to look upon”.
48. These horses with “grey coats” – are they grey or white?
49. Why are the spears made of ash?
XIV. “The green earth, say you?” (1579 = 14%)
Aragorn’s cry brings the horsemen quickly; they ring the trio with spears and bows. To their leader’s demands for names and purposes, Aragorn identifies himself as “Strider”, hunting orcs. The rider, dismounting with one other, says that he almost took the Hunters for orcs, and then demands to know if they are elvish. When Aragorn mentions their sojourn in Lórien, the rider describes Galadriel as a sorceress. Gimli takes offense, and they nearly come to blows before Aragorn intercedes. In the exchange we learn the rider is named “Éomer”.
He tells Aragorn that Rohan is not at war with Sauron. Aragorn, formally identifying himself, says that the time has come to choose sides. Éomer is abashed. Aragorn also explains their chase after the orcs, and asks for news, but Éomer can say only that the orcs were destroyed, and no prisoners were found. Gimli explains that their captive friends were Halflings. This earns derision from Éothain, who is Éomer’s second (aide? esquire?), but Éomer wants to know more, and while his men gather to await his orders, speaks to the Hunters alone.
50. Where else in the book does someone mistake characters first for orcs and then for elves?
51. What is the vision of a crown that Legolas sees?
52. Éomer says the Rohirrim “desire only to be free, and to live as we have lived, keeping our own, and serving no foreign lord, good or evil”. How are they thus like or unlike the Ents in their present neutrality?
53. Why didn’t Faramir, Boromir and Denethor keep the words of the dream secret? Éomer knows it, and in Unfinished Tales (I think), Tolkien wrote that Sauron had the news also.
54. Compare Sam’s comments about being part of a story to Aragorn’s remark here that “not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time”.
XV. “Your news is all of woe!” (2134 = 19%)
Speaking alone with our heroes, Éomer says he believes their strange story, because as a truth-teller himself, he is “not easily deceived”. Aragorn tells him of the falls of Gandalf and Boromir. Gandalf would be unwelcome, having taken the king’s horse, only lately returned, though Éomer himself is dismayed at his death. He takes Boromir’s loss as especially bad news. But he is amazed at the Hunters’ fortitude.
Éomer expects Rohan to war with Sauron –they do not pay the Dark Lord tribute, but their black horses have been stolen by him– and accordingly he has cleared his people from this area, the “East-mark”. But they are immediately beset from the west by Saruman, a “dwimmer-crafty” foe. He asks for Aragorn’s aid in their battles, noting that he rode without permission to destroy this orc band, which he notes was joined by more orcs coming from the Anduin and from Fangorn. They were all destroyed, and Éomer is sure both that the hobbits were not among the slain, and that no orc escaped his vigilance. Aragorn reminds him that the hobbits might have gone overlooked as the Hunters themselves were.
Thus reminded of the marvels he has seen today, Éomer wonders, “How shall a man judge what to do in such times?” Aragorn replies that the nature of good and evil are unchanging, and asks Éomer to decide what to do. Théoden’s law requires him to bring strangers to Edoras, but Aragorn notes that first, he is not technically a stranger, and second, that tradition calls for Éomer to allow Aragorn to fulfill his quest. Éomer risks his life by letting them go, and he also gives them horses.
55. Éomer says that since Gandalf’s visit last fall, “all things have gone amiss” (emphasis added). Remember Aragorn’s words from the chapter’s first section? Did he make the right choice for the wrong reason?
56. Shadowfax is described as Théoden’s “most precious” horse – are readers meant to take that word ominously, or does Tolkien use it for ordinary treasures?
57. Had Théoden ever ridden Shadowfax, before Gandalf took him?
58. Shouldn’t the news that Éomer avenged Boromir’s death win him thanks from Théoden?
59. “That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise.” Were you surprised, when you first read this of Boromir?
60. Éomer also says that Boromir was more “like to the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor”. Does that speak well or ill of Boromir? Of the Rohirrim?
61. The Hunters’ journey of 135 miles in four days astonishes Éomer. However, though it’s a significant effort, it’s easily within the abilities of real-world hikers, especially over the relatively flat terrain of Rohan. Is Éomer’s esteem an indication that Tolkien himself wasn’t much for long-distance walking, famously failing to keep pace with the Lewis brothers? Or is it meant to convey a horseman’s poor sense of foot-travel? And why isn’t Éomer more impressed by the faster pace set by the orcs, who managed thirty more miles in thirty-six fewer hours?
62. Is the name “Wingfoot”, which I don’t believe recurs in LotR, an allusion to anything? Does it connect to anything else in this chapter?
63. If “there are some, close to the king’s ear, that speak craven counsels”, does that mean just Gríma, or others too?
64. Éomer says that Edoras is left with “little guard” in his absence. But this “eored” included only 120 men, yet when Théoden rides west to war at Gandalf’s urging, he has 1,000 men ready in the space of a few hours. Is this an error?
65. “Fifteen of my men I lost, and twelve horses alas!” Do the Rohirrim value horses above men?
66. What finally convinces Éomer to aid Aragorn?
XVI. “I have yet to teach you gentle speech.” (347 = 3%)
Both Gimli and Éothain think it ridiculous that a dwarf should ride a horse of Rohan, but Legolas, who rides bareback and without gear, persuades Gimli to share his horse. Aragorn rides “Hasufel”, formerly ridden by one “Gárulf”, and Legolas and Gimli ride “Arod”. The Hunters promise to return after their quest is complete; Gimli in particular has unsettled business with Éomer.
67. Insert your own question.
XVII. “There is little to discover…” (234 = 2%)
Not long after they leave the Rohirrim, they find the side trail where the orcs were joined by a party from the east, but it reveals nothing of importance, though Aragorn watches the ground closely for traces of any attempt to sneak the hobbits away before the orcs were surrounded.
68. Why even bother to introduce this second company of orcs?
XVIII. “It will be hard news for Frodo…” (384 = 3%)
They reach the forest edge in late afternoon, as clouds come in from the East. They see dead orcs along the trail, and not far inside the woods is a glade where the orcs’ bodies were burned, apart from one head on a stake, above the orcs’ piled weapons. At the wood’s edge is the mound where the dead Rohirrim are buried, but there is no sign, in the failing light, of the hobbits. Gimli despairs and remembers Elrond’s disquiet concerning Merry and Pippin, and to Legolas’ comment that Gandalf supported their joining the company, Gimli notes the wizard’s own death: “His foresight failed him.” Aragorn wishes to examine the ground more closely in the morning.
69. Why do the Rohirrim use “grey-feathered” arrows?
70. Since Elrond, as Aragorn will soon note, likens Fangorn to the Old Forest, what are we to make of the connection between the bonfire glades in the two woods?
71. The orc-head belongs to one of Saruman’s company, i.e. a large orc (in fact it is Uglúk, leader of the uruk-hai, but we don’t know that name yet), but is described as a “goblin” – are the words wholly interchangeable for Tolkien?
72. Are the spears by the mound pointed up or down?
73. Why does Gimli sound like Celeborn when the elf-lord learned of Gandalf’s death?
74. Responding to Gimli, Aragorn says, “There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark.” How can one tell those things from tasks that should be refused?
XIX. “They had brought only one blanket apiece.” (1030 = 9%)
It is cold, so Gimli lights a fire at their campsite “under a spreading tree: it looked like a chestnut” with leaves that resemble “long splayed fingers”. He uses only downed wood, at Aragorn’s urging: unlike the Rohirrim, who cut many trees to burn the orcs, the Hunters may have to travel into this perilous wood. However, Legolas feels that “the tree is glad of the fire”. Neither Aragorn nor Legolas knows why the forest has a fearsome reputation, though Legolas remembers songs about the “Onodrim” or “Ents”, and Aragorn agrees that the forest is very old.
Gimli has the first watch, and sees an old man, who might be Saruman. The dwarf's startled movements wake the others, and Aragorn calls to the man courteously, but the man vanishes when Aragorn approaches. Then Legolas sees that the horses are gone, and the trio hears them whinnying in the distance. “Then all was quiet again, except for the cold rustle of the wind.”
75. Is the “spreading … chestnut” a reference to Longfellow? Tolkien had read at least “Hiawatha”.
76. Is it only the warnings about Fangorn that cause Aragorn to have a different attitude toward fire here than he held at Weathertop?
77. Why would a tree like fire? Why is this tree given human characteristics? And why is its apparent joy followed by this sentence: “There was a silence, for suddenly the dark and unknown forest, so near at hand, made itself felt as a great brooding presence, full of secret purpose”?
78. What are Aragorn’s and Tolkien’s beliefs about “fables that Men have made as true knowledge fades”?
79. If Fangorn and the Old Forest are “the last strongholds of the mighty woods of the Elder Days”, does that mean that Mirkood is younger? Or different in some other way?
80. Is this the first time we read of the company drawing lots?
81. This section emphasizes the coldness of the night – why?
XX. “There is more trouble coming to us, mark my words!” (269 = 2%)
Aragorn reminds them that they have gone without horses until that morning. Legolas needles Gimli for missing the horses, when before he was unwilling to ride. Gimli argues that the old man was Saruman, and Aragorn is inclined to agree. They rest and watch through the night. “But nothing happened.”
82. Apart from the comments between elf and dwarf here, is this chapter wanting for humor?
83. Aragorn has “more need of thought than of sleep” and takes what remains of Gimli’s watch. Gandalf does the same with Pippin in the well-room in Moria. And Aragorn again does this after Frodo sees Gollum along the River. Are we meant to connect these scenes, and if so, why?
84. This chapter reads like a detective story. How successful is the mystery for first-time readers? What compensations does it offer for returning readers who know how the questions will be resolved?
There's just one more post to go for this chapter (some of you will already have guessed its contents).
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Apr. 14-20 for "The Riders of Rohan".
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 20 2008, 12:09pm
Post #2 of 69
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1. Why are the climbs gentle and the descents steep?
Why not? It seems natural enough to me.
2. Is the phrase “unless there is much amiss in Rohan” meant to portend later troubles?
Yes.
3. In this section, Aragorn is stymied, and makes a decision blindly. Why?
Is it a blind decision? I would call it an educated guess. And his decisiveness now contrasts with his indecisiveness before the breaking of the Fellowship. I think we see a new, more decisive and focused Aragorn. His commitment to following Merry and Pippin has given him a reason to focus, even though he still has difficult decisions to make along the way.
4. As I recall, Robin Reid has argued that Tolkien makes natural elements the agents of his sentences and phrases to a great degree ... Do you think Reid is correct about this section? About this chapter? About Tolkien’s work generally? If so, what effect does that have on the reader?
I would guess that Reid is correct. It is a more subtle version of what we saw Tolkien's characters do with the winds, personifying them in song. It may see like mere metaphor, i.e. a "cliff frowned upon their right," but remember the effect of Caradhras' temper? And remember that Goldberry is a River daughter. Maybe the cliff really did frown at them!
5. This section seems to presage the journey of Sam and Frodo, in “The Land of Shadow”, along the valley between the Mountains of Shadow and the Morgai (the inner fence of Mordor). That is also a journey north, and also includes a dead orc. Is this a real connection, and if so, why?
The connection never occurred to me. Orcs killing each other is a theme that runs throughout the book. Tolkien also has a habit of treating mountain ridges like fences which limit the options for travel. However the two ridges of mountains between which Sam and Frodo turn north in Mordor seem to me much larger and steeper than the ridges encountered by the three hunters. And although it takes some effort, the hunters do cross their ridges. I don't think Tolkien intended a connection, but I do think there are comparisons that can be made, as is so often true of different scenes within LotR. On the other hand, there are plenty of contrasts as well.
6. Is there significance in the image of seeming boulders being revealed as bodies?
I think it reminds us of the landscape, which is apparently filled with body-sized boulders. The imagery also gives me a bit of a start, as it presumably did the hunters, when boulders turn out to be bodies. I'm not sure there is more to it than that, but if so it probably has to do with Tolkien blurring the lines between people and natural elements, so that boulders start to look like bodies and bodies like bolders.
7. Why are they refreshed?
They are hot on the trail of the orcs. And they are also sturdy heroes who can shrug off one night's lost sleep. I'm not sure they are refreshed. The narrator (Tolkien? Frodo? Some Gondorian scribe?) says they sprang from rock to rock as if fresh from a night's sleep, but I don't think anyone said they had been tired up to this point.
8. Does a “chill wind” normally accompany daybreak in the real world? (And which way is this wind blowing?)
I think it just means that at dawn the wind is chill, not that the dawn caused the wind -- although in Tolkien's fantasy, anything is possible. A directionless wind leaves me wondering if it is a good sign or bad, and indeed it could be both or neither, for the hunters have found the tracks of the orcs, but also fall well behind in the hunt.
9. Aragorn had already decided that his path lay neither east with Frodo nor south to Minas Tirith – why does Tolkien have him express his desire for Gondor here?
Aragorn did make his choice, but not without effort. Note the rare reference to purple, the traditional color of royalty and of the sacred Mount Mindolluin, as Aragorn looks towards the White Mountains and Gondor.
10. Does the poem bear on any further action in this chapter?
Well, not yet does Aragorn's path lie southward.
11. Why is the cliff called a “Wall”? Why the “strange suddenness” of separation between hills in winter and fields in spring?
Why not? I don't find it unusual to find a cliff wall, especially near to a high waterfall like Rauros, which presumably falls over a cliff wall.
12. Why show us the eagle again?
More foreshadowing of Gandalf.
13. Who makes the hard, grey bread the orcs eat? Who makes their heavy shoes?
Presumably the orcs do. Or purhaps their slaves.
14. What is the connection between these “softer and warmer” fields and the groves of Ithilien? Between these “scented” lands and the stink of the Marshes on the other side of the Emyn Muil?
Rohan is a blessed land, the Marshes are a cursed land, and Ithilien is a formerly blessed land still benefitting from that blessing but occupied by cursed enemies.
15. How is it the orcs have “blackened” the grass? Does that mean simply that they have trod it heavily into the earth, or have the stained the grass in some other way?
I would not be surprised if they poison the land by walking on it, although Tolkien leaves it ambiguous.
16. Is “Not idly do the leaves of Lórien fall” a known proverb in Middle-earth, or has Aragorn just made it up?
He just made it up. Most people know nothing of Lorien or its leaves.
17. Legolas laments the hobbits being “driven like cattle”. How does he feel about cattle treated that way?
Presumably not too bad, although who exactly drives cattle in Middle-earth, and how would Legolas know of them? The Rohirrim are the likely suspects, but do we ever hear about their cattle or their cattle-drives? And Legolas is a stranger to Rohan anyway, so where did he see cattle driven? I suppose it's possible that he would say such a thing, but it seems a bit off to me. Maybe Legolas remembers tales of the Kine of Araw, i.e. the cattle of Orome.
18. Aragorn says, “You give the choice to an ill chooser… Since we passed through the Argonath my choices have gone amiss.” What have his choices been, and how have they gone wrong?
Aragorn chose to make camp on Amon Hen, set no day watch despite hot pursuit by the orcs, allowed Frodo to wander off, allowed Boromir to wander after him, chose to run to the High Seat rather than listening to Sam about Frodo's likely whereabouts, and most of all allowed Frodo to dictate what would happen next rather than making his own choice whether to go to Minas Tirith or join Frodo. I think Aragorn knew that his destiny lay in Minas Tirith, and that accounts for his indecisiveness. He just couldn't bring himself to voluntarily leave Frodo to his own devices, despite excellent reasons to do so. So Providence stepped in, even though it looked like a disaster.
19. Does he make the right choice here?
Well, it all works out in the end. And he had good reasons for his choice. But if he had made a different choice I think Providence would have made sure the results were similar.
20. Legolas says he has no idea how three pursuers will free the hobbits from so many orcs. Should the companions be looking for assistance in defeating the orcs, rather than racing to catch them, which if achieved might prove disastrous?
No. By the time they found assistance it would be too late, and they wouldn't know where to find the orcs.
21. Why remind us of Frodo’s light here?
Tolkien from time to time reminds us that Frodo's quest is more important than the exciting events to the west of the Anduin. This is another place where I have a hard time imagining Frodo as narrator, reminding the reader that he was more important than Merry or Pippin or Aragorn. I suppose we can imagine an anonymous Gondorian scribe taking over the narration, or annotating heavily.
22. Legolas is described as “thoughtful and silent as a young tree in a windless night”. An odd simile?
Again Tolkien animates natural elements, here implying that young trees in windless nights are not just straight and silent, but "thoughtful."
23. Why does Aragorn look “pale and drawn” after listening to the earth?
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 20 2008, 12:44pm
Post #3 of 69
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23. Why does Aragorn look “pale and drawn” after listening to the earth?
Mostly, I think, because he no longer hears the orcs. As Legolas guessed, they did not stop, and are now far away. The rumble of horses does not offer comfort, because Aragorn does not know who they are, and the horses are moving away from them, far to the north. So again, whoever is riding the horses, the orcs and their prisoners are now far away.
24. Why the description of the Hunters blending into the landscape?
It sets up the scene in which the Rohirrim misses them entirely. And it reminds us that no elvish gift is ordinary.
25. What is the “silence that did not seem to be the quiet of peace”?
It is similar to the silence of Hollin, except here Aragorn would expect to see herds and herdsmen as opposed to wild animals.
26. Aragorn suspects “even the pale Moon” – has Saruman brought clouds to the sky, or is it an illusion?
It's ambiguous, but I think Saruman has cast a haze over Rohan that foreshadows Sauron's Great Darkness.
27. How does Saruman tire the trio? Is his power meant for them specifically, or is there a general spell on northern Rohan?
I believe there is a general spell, brought on the wind. This is a rare instance where the north wind is bad, because Isengard is to the north.
28. Legolas first noticed Saruman’s will 36 hours earlier – why didn’t he mention it before?
Because he isn't in charge? Because it wouldn't change anything? Because he senses many things his comrades miss, like someone who can see colors in the land of the colorblind?
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 20 2008, 2:38pm
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“The Riders of Rohan” is divided into twenty sections of unequal length. Each is described briefly below. The numbers indicate the words in that section, and the size of the section as a percentage of the whole chapter.
I. “All night the companions scrambled…” (286 = 3%)
The hills that border the river are arranged in two ridges that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli must cross. They surmount the first ridge, descend into the trough between them, and lose the trail briefly on the hard ground there in the dark. Aragorn decides to turn north, guessing the orcs mean to cross Rohan to Isengard in that direction.
1. Why are the climbs gentle and the descents steep?
I think that sounds about right geologically: it’s called tilting blocks, or something. As the bedrock pulls apart, the sections crack and then tilt. The gentle climb is the top of the bed, and the steep descent is the newly exposed side face of the cracked-apart bed. The “Basin and Range” area of Nevada has similar formations, although on a much larger and rawer scale.
What’s odd is that the hills on the west side are fairly straightforward parallel ridges, while the east side is more jumbled up – and the steep descents face the opposite direction, east. Still, it makes for a nice parallel: Aragorn and the orcs have to descend to Rohan down a sheer cliff face, and Frodo and Sam do the same to get down to the marshes in Book IV.
2. Is the phrase “unless there is much amiss in Rohan” meant to portend later troubles?
Yes, and no. After all, although Eomer has to defy Grima’s edict to do his duty, in fact the orcs do get spotted, chased and destroyed just as they would have had nothing been “amiss”. As we will see next chapter, the orcs’ haste over the plains is partly inspired by the fact that the Rohirrim scout spotted them the minute they crossed the border, and they know the horsemen will be appearing any moment.
3. In this section, Aragorn is stymied, and makes a decision blindly. Why?
Wait. The trail vanishes, and Aragorn reasons out the most likely way to go. Soon he is proved correct. That’s called tracking, and he is the greatest tracker in Middle-earth. What’s the question?
4. As I recall, Robin Reid has argued that Tolkien makes natural elements the agents of his sentences and phrases to a great degree, and I believe she cites this section as an example. It depends somewhat on how you diagram the sentences, but as I see it, the following words, in the following order, are the agents in this section: “dusk”, “mist”, “sky”, “stars”, “moon”, “shadows”, “they” (Hunters), “pace”, “trail”, “highlands”, “side of each ridge”, “slopes”, “companions”, “they” (companions), “moon”, “stars”, “light”, “Aragorn”, “orc-trail”, “it” (orc-trail), “they” (orcs), “Legolas”, “that” (orcs’ aim), “you” (Aragorn), “way… northward”, “way… southward”, “they” (orcs), “they”, “Aragorn”, “much”, “power of Saruman”, “they” (orcs), “they” (orcs), and “us”.
Do you think Reid is correct about this section? About this chapter? About Tolkien’s work generally? If so, what effect does that have on the reader?
It is true, I see, that Tolkien uses active verbs to personify nature when describing a scene. That is, he could be writing:
It grew darker. There was a mist behind them among the trees below, and they could see it brooding on the pale margins of the Anduin. In the clear sky they saw the first stars.
So Reid has a good point, but your analysis also highlights Tolkien’s way of telling a story: he first sets the scene, then describes the characters’ action or journey. Notice that the natural elements predominate in the first half of your list; the characters predominate in the second half.
II. “Here is another riddle!” (315 = 3%)
Traveling north along the trough, the Hunters find five orc bodies. Legolas supposes this may mean that the trio has allies in the hills, but Aragorn believes the dead orcs, apparently from the northern mountains, were killed by their comrades from Isengard, probably in a dispute about the direction of travel. Gimli worries about the fate of the hobbits.
5. This section seems to presage the journey of Sam and Frodo, in “The Land of Shadow”, along the valley between the Mountains of Shadow and the Morgai (the inner fence of Mordor). That is also a journey north, and also includes a dead orc. Is this a real connection, and if so, why?
Nice catch. It doesn’t seem very meaningful, because the two sequences come at quite different places in the books, and we see the Mordor orc get killed.
6. Is there significance in the image of seeming boulders being revealed as bodies?
Good horror image. “Think I’ll take a break and sit down on this bould…. Oh my god!” But it’s trolls, not orcs, that come from stone. And DON’T think of the Druedain from Unfinished Tales—have some decency.
III. “Not yet does my road lie southward…” (372 = 3%)
As the night ends, the trio find the trail again. It leads up the second ridge, and they climb to the top. They feel oddly refreshed. As they crest the hill, there is a breeze, and dawn breaks behind them. Ahead in Rohan, “shadows… melted” and “colours… returned”. To their left, many miles away, they see the White Mountains. Aragorn wistfully recites a poem about Gondor, then turns back to their course.
7. Why are they refreshed?
It is the effect of restored hope, now that they have a clear trail again.
8. Does a “chill wind” normally accompany daybreak in the real world? (And which way is this wind blowing?)
I wouldn’t be surprised if it does – I’m not usually on a hilltop at dawn. I believe the wind is from the East, but it doesn’t actually say that.
9. Aragorn had already decided that his path lay neither east with Frodo nor south to Minas Tirith – why does Tolkien have him express his desire for Gondor here?
It’s a natural reaction to the fact that we can see Gondor for the first time from this hilltop. Aragorn has to say something! Two, the imagery in the poem reintroduces some of the Gondor themes that up to now have been pretty underplayed. If nothing else, note that it calls for the West Wind to return, while he stands in the East Wind.
10. Does the poem bear on any further action in this chapter?
Yes, it reminds us that Aragorn is the King in exile that the song yearns for. He pulls this rank on Eomer in just a few more pages.
IV. “It swelled like a green sea…” (513 = 5%)
From the ridge-top, Legolas sees an high-flying eagle speeding north. Then our heroes see the orcs far out on the plains of Rohan. They follow the orcs’ trail of detritus down a cutting in the cliffside. Finding spring has reached the fields, feel refreshed as they continue their pursuit.
11. Why is the cliff called a “Wall”? Why the “strange suddenness” of separation between hills in winter and fields in spring?
Because it forms a wall at the edge of the plain of Rohan. The suddenness is properly dramatic, something Tolkien loves in a landscape. What makes it strange is that there is no debris slope at the foot of the cliff, from natural weathering and erosion. The transition to spring from winter is similarly heightened for effect, but they have after all descended a thousand feet in very little time.
12. Why show us the eagle again?
It’s a sign that they should go north.
13. Who makes the hard, grey bread the orcs eat? Who makes their heavy shoes?
Girl orcs, or worker orcs, or (if you are still going by The Hobbit for goblin-lore) slave prisoners.
14. What is the connection between these “softer and warmer” fields and the groves of Ithilien? Between these “scented” lands and the stink of the Marshes on the other side of the Emyn Muil?
Yes. And yes. In my Ithilien discussion a while back I missed this parallel mention of an early spring in Rohan.
V. “And he had the use of his wits…” (308 = 3%)
As they run from the cliff, Aragorn sees “unshod” footprints running north-east away from the orc-path, and finds Pippin’s brooch. He deduces that Pippin dropped it as a sign. It brings hope to the Hunters, but also fear for the hobbits’ safety.
15. How is it the orcs have “blackened” the grass? Does that mean simply that they have trod it heavily into the earth, or have the stained the grass in some other way?
I think it means that the soil is black and damp, and the herd of running orcs has muddied and dirtied the grass. But of course Tolkien is writing emotionally as well. One gathers that the Three Hunters or the Riders on horseback somehow do not make the same mess.
16. Is “Not idly do the leaves of Lórien fall” a known proverb in Middle-earth, or has Aragorn just made it up?
I have always thought that Aragorn has a good gentleman’s education and so is able to spontaneously compose poetry and literary expressions.
17. Legolas laments the hobbits being “driven like cattle”. How does he feel about cattle treated that way?
Good catch, and good question. Too bad Tolkien never portrays cattle or sheep in detail in his story, for us to gather what people’s attitudes are towards them, compared to everybody’s obvious affection for horses.
VI. “We have come at last to a hard choice” (712 = 6%)
When evening comes, the companions have traveled 36 miles northwest from the hills. They debate whether to continue on or stop for the night. Gimli wants to rest, arguing that first the orcs must rest at some point; second, the trail might turn and be lost; and third, that signs of escape would be missed. In favor of going on, Legolas responds that first; if orcs were to rest it would be by day and these have not, second, the trail runs in a straight line as far as he can see; and third, the orcs will be all the more vigilant since Pippin’s broke loose. After deliberating, Aragorn chooses to stop, fearing to miss a sign in the dark. Gimli wishes Galadriel had given them a light like Frodo’s, but Aragorn says it will be more needed on the “true Quest” than on this “small matter”.
18. Aragorn says, “You give the choice to an ill chooser… Since we passed through the Argonath my choices have gone amiss.” What have his choices been, and how have they gone wrong?
1. He chose to let Frodo leave the company at Parth Galen. 2. He chose not to direct the breakup of the Fellowship. 3. He chose to try the Seat of Amon Hen when he had better things to do. 4. He chose to give Boromir a proper funeral, so giving the orcs three or four more hours of lead time.
19. Does he make the right choice here?
Yes.
20. Legolas says he has no idea how three pursuers will free the hobbits from so many orcs. Should the companions be looking for assistance in defeating the orcs, rather than racing to catch them, which if achieved might prove disastrous?
Assistance from whom? As to the rescue, obviously none of that matters if they never even catch up with the orcs. But Tolkien’s legends are known for prisoner escapes and desperate ventures that succeed against the odds, so Aragorn is probably not very worried about the next phase of the rescue just now.
21. Why remind us of Frodo’s light here?
I don’t know. It is too isolated a mention to help us remember it for Book IV. It does perhaps suggest that Gimli has been spending his time thinking of nothing but Galadriel.
VII. “I wonder what is happening in this land!” (332 = 3%)
They rest, rising before dawn. Legolas is glum. Aragorn puts his ear to the ground, and reports that the orcs are far away, but the sound of hoofs are nearer, and that he realizes he heard them even while he slept. The three seekers then set off again.
22. Legolas is described as “thoughtful and silent as a young tree in a windless night”. An odd simile?
Not if you know and like trees.
23. Why does Aragorn look “pale and drawn” after listening to the earth?
It suggests to me that he has expended quite a bit of his spiritual energy in communing with the earth.
VIII. “They seldom spoke.” (290 = 3%)
The land slowly rises as they approach “humpbacked” downs, on their second day on the plains. They are sustained by lembas and masked by their elven-cloaks. Aragorn finds it strange that the fields are empty, where normally there would be herds and herdsmen (though most of the Rohirrim actually live far to the south).
24. Why the description of the Hunters blending into the landscape?
The whole chapter is about the relationship between the Hunters and the landscape.
25. What is the “silence that did not seem to be the quiet of peace”?
It has the effect of creating suspense. It is Tolkien-talk for “It’s quiet. Too quiet.” from an old Hollywood western.
IX. “But he shall not turn us back!” (315 = 3%)
A mist blocks the stars and dims the moon as the Hunters stop for the night, still shy of the downs but twice as far from the hills behind them. Legolas thinks the orcs are have reached the forest, more than 70 miles ahead; Gimli calls this a “bitter end to our hope and to all our toil”. Aragorn observes that their efforts are not ended, but also that he feels strangely tired, as if a power is dispiriting them. Legolas identifies that will as Saruman’s.
26. Aragorn suspects “even the pale Moon” – has Saruman brought clouds to the sky, or is it an illusion?
Saruman cannot draw the clouds into the sky, but Tolkien can. A moon seen through a misty sky is a very creepy image.
27. How does Saruman tire the trio? Is his power meant for them specifically, or is there a general spell on northern Rohan?
My guess is he’s protecting his orcs rather than targeting the Hunters in any specific way. It would have been good if Eomer had mentioned it too.
28. Legolas first noticed Saruman’s will 36 hours earlier – why didn’t he mention it before?
Typical Elvish sense of superiority. Like his remark about “you children”.
29. Is Aragorn’s reference to their “road between down and fen” merely descriptive?
Yes.
X. “My legs must forget the miles.” (317 = 3%)
Legolas wakes the others at a “red dawn”; he feels they are “called”. Several hours later, they reach the southern end of the downs. Aragorn says the orcs rested there, 36 hours earlier, and explains how far they have to go to reach the forest, following the trail that now turns north along the downs.
30. This is the morning that Merry and Pippin escape, and Éomer’s men destroy the orcs. What about those events should move Legolas to interpret the red sky as tiding “strange” events at the forest?
Red sky in the morning, hunters take warning.
31. Why does Aragorn say “thrice twelve hours” rather than “thirty-six hours”?
More archaic expression sounds good, relates better to medieval non-arithmetic approach to time. I do wonder what “hour” means in Middle-earth.
32. Aragorn guesses that 45 miles lie between the other end of these downs and the forest, but the next morning we will be told that it is 30 miles. Is this a mistake by Tolkien, or is the difference meant to show Aragorn’s fallibility? (Or did the imagined text have two different editors?)
Aragorn guesses 15 leagues at their lunch break. They continue to walk all afternoon. The next morning the forest is 10 leagues away. What’s the question?
XI. “Rede oft is found at the rising of the Sun.” (324 = 3%)
Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli travel another 24 miles by day’s end. Only Legolas is not tired, and he leads them to the crest of the last hill, but the sun sets, and they can only dimly glimpse Fangorn Forest and the Misty Mountains, still some 30 miles away. A cold north wind blows, “from the snows”, Aragorn says. Legolas counsels against losing hope.
33. Why does this last down stand apart from the rest?
It punctuates the series dramatically. Other examples are Methedras at the end of the Misty Mountains, and Weathertop at the end of the Weather Hills.
34. Comment on the sentence, “They were in a grey formless world without mark or measure.”
It’s a pretty way of saying the world has neither color (grey), shape (formless), detail (mark), or size (measure). They are alone in a void, in other words: pretty lonely. Also: nice alliteration at the end; and if you add back the “alone” in the sentence it scans well as blank verse.
35. Is the change in wind direction meant to signify anything but variety?
I would venture to guess that it means that Saruman’s influence has waned and Sauron is back in charge of thinks on the Evil side. As we later find out, Saruman’s force was wiped out this morning.
36. What are some occasions in LotR when Legolas’ aphorism, quoted above, proves true?
First I had to go look it up. Rede in “Rede oft is found at the rising of the Sun” means help, advice, decision, or a plan. Moments of rede being found at sunrise in LotR are: When Tom arrives to rescue the hobbits from the barrow; the end of the storm on Caradhras; the climax of the Helm’s Deep battle; the climax of the Pelennor Fields battle. There are probably others; the key distinction is to find scenes that feature the sunrise dispersing the darkness, not just the beginning of a new day.
XII. “Aragorn saw a shadow on the distant green…” (753 = 7%)
The sky clears and the wind changes to the East as Aragorn and Gimli try to sleep, and Legolas sings. They are near to Rohan’s “Wold” highlands, away to their right, and far ahead they can see the forest and the peak of Methedras behind it. Their path now turns to follow the Entwash upstream to the forest. Looking that way, Aragorn and Legolas glimpse riders. They are still fifteen miles away, but Legolas is able to count them and even discern their hair color. Since the riders are returning along the orcs’ trail, Aragorn decides to wait for their approach, and ask for news. They descend the hill and sit down in the grass. Aragorn describes the Rohirrim: their friendship with Gondor, kinship with the Beornings and Bardings, and their primitive and illiterate, but decent nature.
37. Why does Tolkien describe this night and dawn with these words and phrases: “colder”, “hard black vault”, “bare”, “pale and clear”, “bleak”, “bitter light”?
Again, the imagery is harsh and stripped of energy and form. It conveys the hopelessness of the Hunters’ quest at this point.
38. What does the word “Wold” come from? Why use it?
Having looked it up for the first time, I find it is a Middle English word meaning moor or upland or unforested plain. (It derives as a transformed opposite from Old English weald for wood or forest.) It occurs in numerous English placenames, e.g. the Cotswolds. Two reasons to use it: Middle English is the Rohan language. It conveys (to those that can read Middle English) that they have left the rich grasslands of Rohan’s river bottoms and moved upstream to scraggy moorlands.
39. The Hunters, as they recognize, have backtracked a great distance: they had seen the Wold from the River many days earlier. Tolkien didn’t have to write the story or design his map that way: why have the characters circle around like this?
Fortuity. When Tolkien began his characters’ journey downriver from Lothlorien, he did not foresee this sidetrip anymore than his characters did: they were headed for Mordor and Minas Tirith respectively. So the emotion generated is very authentic. The result is also very realistic: sometimes you do find that you’ve gone three quarters round to get where you end up.
40. To Legolas viewing the riders, “the glint of morning on the tips of their spears was like the twinkle of minute stars beyond the edge of mortal sight” – what kind of metaphor is that? Does Tolkien mean us to understand that elves can distinguish double stars that cannot be resolved by ordinary human eyes?
I think he means that Elves can distinguish some single stars that are too dim to be seen by unaided human eyes. It’s a very modern concept if you think about it: only with the invention of the telescope did mankind realize there are stars out there that we can’t see. In fact all of Legolas’ powers of sight refer to the modern concept of telescopy; in medieval times good vision mean better resolution at normal ranges, not perception to the horizon
41. Why “Yellow is their hair, and bright are their spears” rather than “Their hair is yellow, and their spears are bright”?
One of the benefits of word order that is independent of syntax (common to Latin and Old English, among other languages) is that you can choose which word to emphasize by putting it first. The sentence has impact at the same time as it recalls more archaic speech patterns. This is definitely one of the points in the story where wroth waxed what’s-her-name the critic about Tolkien’s fondness for inverted word order.
42. Legolas says that Éomer is “very tall”. As tall as Aragorn? Who’s the tallest human character in LotR?
Aragorn is the tallest, but Legolas can’t be far behind. I think Legolas is taking average human stature into account: The Riders are taller than the Men of Laketown or the Beornings (Legolas’ most probable points of comparison), for instance, and of the company, Eomer is the tallest.
43. When Legolas reports no sign of hobbits among the riders, Aragorn says, “I did not say that we should hear good news”. This is rather like his comment during the debate about resting or walking by night: “I said that it was a hard choice”. How would you characterize these comments?
It is characteristic of Aragorn’s grim fatalism. Dour is another good word for Aragorn when he’s in this mood.
44. “The three companions now left the hill-top, where they might be an easy mark against the pale sky” – is Aragorn remembering the trouble at Weathertop?
Maybe, but it’s basic infantry stuff. Also throughout the story is the paradox of having to expose oneself in order to see further. See the conflicting feelings of security and menace the hobbits have when they enter, then leave, the concealing oak grove on their journey across the Marish in Book I.
45. Gimli wonders if they are “waiting for sudden death” – do you find that phrase odd?
More than one rider has likened warfare to hours of boredom interspersed with moments of terror.
46. Aragorn likens the riders to “the children of Men before the Dark Years”. Would the Rohirrim like being compared to children?
They’re probably used to it, given Faramir’s later speech to Frodo; and Eowyn zings him with it when he’s courting her. I don’t suppose they like it, but they do acknowledge Gondor’s cultural advances.
XIII. “They were riding like the wind.” (249 = 2%)
The Riders pass close by, singing as they go, but do not see the trio. They have blond hair and ride grey horses. At last Aragorn stands and asks for news.
47. Please comment on “a long line of mail-clad men, swift, shining, fell and fair to look upon”.
Four internal alliterative couplets in a row, and it scans, too. Given that the Riders are singing, ride in pairs, and their culture has its roots in Old English linguistics, the line doesn’t just describe the Rohirrim, it is the Rohirrim.
48. These horses with “grey coats” – are they grey or white?
Grey. Like Shadowfax. The black ones are all gone.
49. Why are the spears made of ash?
Ash as a type of tree goes back to Old English æsc. Since ash wood is a “tough and very strong but elastic” hardwood, it was always used for tool handles, bows, and particularly spears. In fact, in Old English æsc is also the word for spear. (Thank you, Wikipedia)
XIV. “The green earth, say you?” (1579 = 14%)
Aragorn’s cry brings the horsemen quickly; they ring the trio with spears and bows. To their leader’s demands for names and purposes, Aragorn identifies himself as “Strider”, hunting orcs. The rider, dismounting with one other, says that he almost took the Hunters for orcs, and then demands to know if they are elvish. When Aragorn mentions their sojourn in Lórien, the rider describes Galadriel as a sorceress. Gimli takes offense, and they nearly come to blows before Aragorn intercedes. In the exchange we learn the rider is named “Éomer”.
He tells Aragorn that Rohan is not at war with Sauron. Aragorn, formally identifying himself, says that the time has come to choose sides. Éomer is abashed. Aragorn also explains their chase after the orcs, and asks for news, but Éomer can say only that the orcs were destroyed, and no prisoners were found. Gimli explains that their captive friends were Halflings. This earns derision from Éothain, who is Éomer’s second (aide? esquire?), but Éomer wants to know more, and while his men gather to await his orders, speaks to the Hunters alone.
50. Where else in the book does someone mistake characters first for orcs and then for elves?
`We have not found what we sought,' said one. `But what have we found? '
'Not Orcs,' said another, releasing the hilt of his sword, which he had seized when he saw the glitter of Sting in Frodo's hand.
`Elves? ' said a third, doubtfully.
`Nay! Not Elves,' said the fourth, the tallest, and as it appeared the chief among them. `Elves do not walk in Ithilien in these days.
Book IV, in one of the many “parallels” to this sequence.
51. What is the vision of a crown that Legolas sees?
It’s that old spirit-world thing. Aragorn’s inner Dunedain nobility. Only Elves, Gandalf, and Sam can see it. But Eomer can feel it, all right.
52. Éomer says the Rohirrim “desire only to be free, and to live as we have lived, keeping our own, and serving no foreign lord, good or evil”. How are they thus like or unlike the Ents in their present neutrality?
With the Ents there’s no question of serving any one.
53. Why didn’t Faramir, Boromir and Denethor keep the words of the dream secret? Éomer knows it, and in Unfinished Tales (I think), Tolkien wrote that Sauron had the news also.
Clearly Boromir told Theoden, hoping to get some help in figuring its meaning out. Eomer is of the kind of rank that Theoden would keep him in the loop, even for state secrets. Out here he’s a captain on patrol but back in Edoras he is Third Marshal and the King’s nephew. What’s scarier is how Sauron knew. Possibly Grima>Saruman>Sauron. Or else there was a spy in Minas Tirith that we never hear about otherwise.
54. Compare Sam’s comments about being part of a story to Aragorn’s remark here that “not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time”.
Aragorn thinks in terms of legends, Sam in terms of “stories”. High vs. Low, a recurring theme at the core of the book.
XV. “Your news is all of woe!” (2134 = 19%)
Speaking alone with our heroes, Éomer says he believes their strange story, because as a truth-teller himself, he is “not easily deceived”. Aragorn tells him of the falls of Gandalf and Boromir. Gandalf would be unwelcome, having taken the king’s horse, only lately returned, though Éomer himself is dismayed at his death. He takes Boromir’s loss as especially bad news. But he is amazed at the Hunters’ fortitude.
Éomer expects Rohan to war with Sauron –they do not pay the Dark Lord tribute, but their black horses have been stolen by him– and accordingly he has cleared his people from this area, the “East-mark”. But they are immediately beset from the west by Saruman, a “dwimmer-crafty” foe. He asks for Aragorn’s aid in their battles, noting that he rode without permission to destroy this orc band, which he notes was joined by more orcs coming from the Anduin and from Fangorn. They were all destroyed, and Éomer is sure both that the hobbits were not among the slain, and that no orc escaped his vigilance. Aragorn reminds him that the hobbits might have gone overlooked as the Hunters themselves were.
Thus reminded of the marvels he has seen today, Éomer wonders, “How shall a man judge what to do in such times?” Aragorn replies that the nature of good and evil are unchanging, and asks Éomer to decide what to do. Théoden’s law requires him to bring strangers to Edoras, but Aragorn notes that first, he is not technically a stranger, and second, that tradition calls for Éomer to allow Aragorn to fulfill his quest. Éomer risks his life by letting them go, and he also gives them horses.
55. Éomer says that since Gandalf’s visit last fall, “all things have gone amiss” (emphasis added). Remember Aragorn’s words from the chapter’s first section? Did he make the right choice for the wrong reason?
I’m still not sure what you’re driving at with Aragorn’s choice back in the Emyn Muil. Good catch on the rehearsal of the idea of things being “amiss” in Rohan, of course.
56. Shadowfax is described as Théoden’s “most precious” horse – are readers meant to take that word ominously, or does Tolkien use it for ordinary treasures?
Theoden may have been conceived as being an angry old greedhead before Tolkien had really started writing the kindly old man up. (Like the Elf King in The Hobbit, who starts out as a grasping miser and turns out to be a really nice guy.)
57. Had Théoden ever ridden Shadowfax, before Gandalf took him?
I think not. Just as Smaug never had any idea of spending any of his hoard.
58. Shouldn’t the news that Éomer avenged Boromir’s death win him thanks from Théoden?
Yes, but… well, I suspect the conversation turned on other matters.
59. “That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise.” Were you surprised, when you first read this of Boromir?
No. See next question.
60. Éomer also says that Boromir was more “like to the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor”. Does that speak well or ill of Boromir? Of the Rohirrim?
This moment is another good characterization of Boromir as a fighter, not a thinker or a leader. The Rohirrim are considered inferior by the Dunedain of Gondor for not rising above the idea of prowess in battle as the mark of a real man. It is indicative of Aragorn’s force of personality that Eomer, ready to fight him, bows to his Gondorian royalty as soon as it is revealed. Up to now, one suspects that Eomer has been raised only to respect foreign warriors like Boromir; Theoden has presumably been too sick to clue him in. Meeting Aragorn is the beginning of Eomer’s kingly education.
61. The Hunters’ journey of 135 miles in four days astonishes Éomer. However, though it’s a significant effort, it’s easily within the abilities of real-world hikers, especially over the relatively flat terrain of Rohan. Is Éomer’s esteem an indication that Tolkien himself wasn’t much for long-distance walking, famously failing to keep pace with the Lewis brothers? Or is it meant to convey a horseman’s poor sense of foot-travel? And why isn’t Éomer more impressed by the faster pace set by the orcs, who managed thirty more miles in thirty-six fewer hours?
Very good question. Once I calculate it out, you are right that it doesn’t seem so impossible, not that I’d want to do it myself. Remember that it’s really 135 miles in about three days, or three and a half. They started out after dark on the first day, and now it’s the morning of the fourth day. No one ever seems to comment on the orcs’ hardihood and speed, but it always amazes me.
62. Is the name “Wingfoot”, which I don’t believe recurs in LotR, an allusion to anything? Does it connect to anything else in this chapter?
You obviously have something in mind, but it doesn’t come to me and I’m running out of time here.
63. If “there are some, close to the king’s ear, that speak craven counsels”, does that mean just Gríma, or others too?
Eomer is being politic, since he obviously means Grima. But one of the things the movie handles well is pointing out the obvious: Grima must have had his own “party” at court.
64. Éomer says that Edoras is left with “little guard” in his absence. But this “eored” included only 120 men, yet when Théoden rides west to war at Gandalf’s urging, he has 1,000 men ready in the space of a few hours. Is this an error?
I think the men Theoden takes with him are more of militia quality: older reservists. Eomer’s men are crack troops and would be counted on to lead the defense of Edoras by the reserves.
65. “Fifteen of my men I lost, and twelve horses alas!” Do the Rohirrim value horses above men?
No, but they recognize that horses are simple beasts that do not choose whether or how to fight for their men, and so their deaths are sadder in some sense.
66. What finally convinces Éomer to aid Aragorn?
Aragorn says let us go or kill us, but we’ll take some of you with us. This, combined with his wise words concerning friendship, duty, right and wrong, and some judicious name-dropping about friends he has back in Edoras, all convince Eomer to do the right thing.
XVI. “I have yet to teach you gentle speech.” (347 = 3%)
Both Gimli and Éothain think it ridiculous that a dwarf should ride a horse of Rohan, but Legolas, who rides bareback and without gear, persuades Gimli to share his horse. Aragorn rides “Hasufel”, formerly ridden by one “Gárulf”, and Legolas and Gimli ride “Arod”. The Hunters promise to return after their quest is complete; Gimli in particular has unsettled business with Éomer.
67. Insert your own question.
Why do you choose to do this just here?
XVII. “There is little to discover…” (234 = 2%)
Not long after they leave the Rohirrim, they find the side trail where the orcs were joined by a party from the east, but it reveals nothing of importance, though Aragorn watches the ground closely for traces of any attempt to sneak the hobbits away before the orcs were surrounded.
68. Why even bother to introduce this second company of orcs?
It’s not clear to me. I suspect that Tolkien was working out his rather complex scenario for how and why the Company has been followed by Sauron and Saruman since they left Rivendell, or at least Lothlorien. The back and forth of the orcs, which I’ve never completely followed, becomes at least a little clearer once we get to the next chapter.
XVIII. “It will be hard news for Frodo…” (384 = 3%)
They reach the forest edge in late afternoon, as clouds come in from the East. They see dead orcs along the trail, and not far inside the woods is a glade where the orcs’ bodies were burned, apart from one head on a stake, above the orcs’ piled weapons. At the wood’s edge is the mound where the dead Rohirrim are buried, but there is no sign, in the failing light, of the hobbits. Gimli despairs and remembers Elrond’s disquiet concerning Merry and Pippin, and to Legolas’ comment that Gandalf supported their joining the company, Gimli notes the wizard’s own death: “His foresight failed him.” Aragorn wishes to examine the ground more closely in the morning.
69. Why do the Rohirrim use “grey-feathered” arrows?
Grey birds in Rohan.
70. Since Elrond, as Aragorn will soon note, likens Fangorn to the Old Forest, what are we to make of the connection between the bonfire glades in the two woods?
Nice catch. But the glade in Fangorn existed before the Rohirrim burned the orcs, whereas the hobbits cleared the bonfire glade during the war with the Old Forest. This does highlight once again the scenic weakness of this sequence in the movie, with its absurd “wall” of lush and impenetrable foliage at the edge of an open moorland.
71. The orc-head belongs to one of Saruman’s company, i.e. a large orc (in fact it is Uglúk, leader of the uruk-hai, but we don’t know that name yet), but is described as a “goblin” – are the words wholly interchangeable for Tolkien?
More or less. I think “goblin” is an informal term in LotR.
72. Are the spears by the mound pointed up or down?
Up. Why do you ask? They are guarding their dead, like a picket fence.
73. Why does Gimli sound like Celeborn when the elf-lord learned of Gandalf’s death?
Gimli and Celeborn are both depressive types.
74. Responding to Gimli, Aragorn says, “There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark.” How can one tell those things from tasks that should be refused?
Honor v. Pride. Honor: do it. Pride: think twice.
XIX. “They had brought only one blanket apiece.” (1030 = 9%)
It is cold, so Gimli lights a fire at their campsite “under a spreading tree: it looked like a chestnut” with leaves that resemble “long splayed fingers”. He uses only downed wood, at Aragorn’s urging: unlike the Rohirrim, who cut many trees to burn the orcs, the Hunters may have to travel into this perilous wood. However, Legolas feels that “the tree is glad of the fire”. Neither Aragorn nor Legolas knows why the forest has a fearsome reputation, though Legolas remembers songs about the “Onodrim” or “Ents”, and Aragorn agrees that the forest is very old.
Gimli has the first watch, and sees an old man, who might be Saruman. The dwarf's startled movements wake the others, and Aragorn calls to the man courteously, but the man vanishes when Aragorn approaches. Then Legolas sees that the horses are gone, and the trio hears them whinnying in the distance. “Then all was quiet again, except for the cold rustle of the wind.”
75. Is the “spreading … chestnut” a reference to Longfellow? Tolkien had read at least “Hiawatha”.
Probably not, but it’s worth looking into. You go first.
76. Is it only the warnings about Fangorn that cause Aragorn to have a different attitude toward fire here than he held at Weathertop?
I’m not sure.
77. Why would a tree like fire? Why is this tree given human characteristics? And why is its apparent joy followed by this sentence: “There was a silence, for suddenly the dark and unknown forest, so near at hand, made itself felt as a great brooding presence, full of secret purpose”?
Animation of the woods is the theme of Fangorn. We are just getting into that mode here.
78. What are Aragorn’s and Tolkien’s beliefs about “fables that Men have made as true knowledge fades”?
They’re truer than we know or want to believe.
79. If Fangorn and the Old Forest are “the last strongholds of the mighty woods of the Elder Days”, does that mean that Mirkood is younger? Or different in some other way?
Mirkwood is an evil forest, not just an inhuman one, in Tolkien’s head. The former is a creation of Morgoth etc. The latter are the original dwellings of the Elves.
80. Is this the first time we read of the company drawing lots?
Again, no time for me to think this one through. You seem to have something in mind.
81. This section emphasizes the coldness of the night – why?
Loss of Hope.
XX. “There is more trouble coming to us, mark my words!” (269 = 2%)
Aragorn reminds them that they have gone without horses until that morning. Legolas needles Gimli for missing the horses, when before he was unwilling to ride. Gimli argues that the old man was Saruman, and Aragorn is inclined to agree. They rest and watch through the night. “But nothing happened.”
82. Apart from the comments between elf and dwarf here, is this chapter wanting for humor?
Yes.
83. Aragorn has “more need of thought than of sleep” and takes what remains of Gimli’s watch. Gandalf does the same with Pippin in the well-room in Moria. And Aragorn again does this after Frodo sees Gollum along the River. Are we meant to connect these scenes, and if so, why?
Aragorn as the good leader. They stay up and think ahead while their troops sleep.
84. This chapter reads like a detective story. How successful is the mystery for first-time readers? What compensations does it offer for returning readers who know how the questions will be resolved?
This chapter is meant to be read as a pair with the following one. There is a riddling theme throughout this sequence of chapters, too, all the way to the climax with the White Rider. The sequence is ABBA: Hunters; Hobbits; Hobbits; Hunters.
There's just one more post to go for this chapter (some of you will already have guessed its contents). Yeah, and just see if I’m still with you. *collapses with exhaustion*
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 20 2008, 3:42pm
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32. Aragorn guesses that 45 miles lie between the other end of these downs and the forest, but the next morning we will be told that it is 30 miles. Is this a mistake by Tolkien, or is the difference meant to show Aragorn’s fallibility? (Or did the imagined text have two different editors?)
Aragorn guesses 15 leagues at their lunch break. They continue to walk all afternoon. The next morning the forest is 10 leagues away. What’s the question?
At the south end of the downs, Aragorn estimates that it is 24 miles from where they stand to the north end of the downs, and then another 45 miles to the forest. But when they reach the north end of the downs, the narrator says that they are not 45 but 30 miles from the forest. And so the question was: did Tolkien forget? Did he make Aragorn misremember? Or did he intentionally put two different measurements in to suggest two different Red Book editors?
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 20 2008, 3:50pm
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34. Comment on the sentence, “They were in a grey formless world without mark or measure.”
It’s a pretty way of saying the world has neither color (grey), shape (formless), detail (mark), or size (measure). They are alone in a void, in other words: pretty lonely. Also: nice alliteration at the end; and if you add back the “alone” in the sentence it scans well as blank verse.
Oops! Yes, I dropped a word. Sorry. The sentence should read:
"They were alone in a grey formless world without mark or measure."
Does it contrast at all with Frodo's heigtened awareness of shape and color at Cerin Amroth?
(In "Shelob's Lair", there's a more obvious contrast with those perceptions in Lórien.)
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 20 2008, 8:27pm
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Ah! I see I jumped the gun. You're right, of course. At their noon break they had yet to walk 24 more miles just to get to the end of the hills, and from there Aragorn guesses it will be 15 more leagues - contrary to the narrator's information given the next morning that it is only 10 leagues. I missed the 24 miles remark in my hasty scan of the text. Sorry to jump down your throat like that!
My best guess is that Tolkien wrote the 15, then made it 10 later on, to fit his map better. My sense is that his geography was rolling out like a carpet, right in front of the three Hunters, being made up as it went along. If Tolkien had spotted the discrepancy I suspect he would have changed it. If we need an in-story explanation, I'd suggest that Aragorn's words of estimated distance
'...north-west to the issuing of the Entwash there lies still a wide land. Another fifteen leagues it may be.' (squire's bold text)
are enough to cover the narrator's contradiction of his guess. At least Aragorn commits here more than he does to Frodo's question about the "miles" to Rivendell from Bree.
I certainly don't think Tolkien wrote differences of fact to suggest multiple narrators or editors or transmitters of the story. That's not actually his style with LotR - if it was, there'd be a lot of it right out in the open for us to ponder and enjoy.
squire online:
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squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 21 2008, 1:07am
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Only two comments at this time:
1) Any change of temperature can cause a breeze. Hot air rises, cold air sinks, and whenever either one happens other air rushes in where it used to be, hence breezes. Dawn causes a change in temperature, so yes, it is often breezy. So is nightfall. In this case the hot rising air would be sucking below and pushing above to cause the snowy mountain air to rush down on our heroes.
2) Orc bread, shoes, hairy britches, and other paraphernalia of the Lugburz War Effort are made by orkesses in sweatshops. That's why you never see orc females. They're all busy baking, cobbling, sewing, and otherwise supporting the Dark Lord's war on the home front. Or at least that seems to me like the most logical explanation.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 21 2008, 4:37am
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29. Is Aragorn’s reference to their “road between down and fen” merely descriptive?
As far as I can tell it is. What did you have in mind?
30. This is the morning that Merry and Pippin escape, and Éomer’s men destroy the orcs. What about those events should move Legolas to interpret the red sky as tiding “strange” events at the forest?
Legolas does not say that strange events await them because of the red dawn. I assumed that in the red of dawn his keen vision saw some movement in the distance, a cloud of dust perhaps, or sun glinting off spears. Then again, he might also have a flash of foresight. Or maybe the red dawn is a sign of some kind. But Tolkien leaves it all ambiguous.
31. Why does Aragorn say “thrice twelve hours” rather than “thirty-six hours”?
The same reason Lincoln said four score and seven years ago at Gettysburg? Twelve hours is half a day, and seems like a nice unit of time. I don't think Aragorn would have said thrice eleven hours, or thrice nine hours. But thrice twelve hours is like saying a day and a half.
I'm wondering how the orcs got 36 hours ahead, even if the three hunters did take a couple of nights off. And how about those Mordor orcs, who crossed the Anduin well after the other orcs took off and yet managed to catch up with them even though Aragorn could not? How is that possible? Boromir's funeral? Saruman's spells? Aragorn's search for hobbit prints? Clumsy narrative device? Fortunately, most people do not keep close track of all this movement, so most people don't notice a discrepancy.
32. Aragorn guesses that 45 miles lie between the other end of these downs and the forest, but the next morning we will be told that it is 30 miles. Is this a mistake by Tolkien, or is the difference meant to show Aragorn’s fallibility? (Or did the imagined text have two different editors?)
I'm not at all sure that you have analyzed what Aragorn says correctly, but then what he says is rather confusing. I thought squire's analysis was correct, even though he has now backed off of it. I didn't think Aragorn was saying it was eight plus fifteen leagues, but rather eight leagues to one point, and fifteen total.
But even if there is a discrepancy, Tolkien left himself plenty of wriggle room, since Aragorn is making an estimate. I don't think this is meant to show Aragorn's fallibility, since most people won't notice any discrepancy at all. I still think there is some way to analyze what Aragorn says that will resolve the discrepancy, just because Tolkien's discrepancies are so rare, but if it is a mistake it's not the kind most people would notice.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 21 2008, 8:04pm
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How did the orcs gain 36 hours ahead of Aragorn?
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I'm wondering how the orcs got 36 hours ahead, even if the three hunters did take a couple of nights off. And how about those Mordor orcs, who crossed the Anduin well after the other orcs took off and yet managed to catch up with them even though Aragorn could not? It's a good question. I Once we get to Grishnákh's reappearance northwest of the downs, someone should refer to The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, where Tolkien's notes on the orcs' movements are listed.
I didn't think Aragorn was saying it was eight plus fifteen leagues, but rather eight leagues to one point, and fifteen total. I hadn't thought about it that way. Here is the passage:
‘I can see nothing away north or west but grass dwindling into mist,’ said Gimli. ‘Could we see the forest, if we climbed the hills?’
‘It is still far away,’ said Aragorn. ‘If I remember rightly, these downs run eight leagues or more to the north, and then north-west to the issuing of the Entwash there lies still a wide land, another fifteen leagues it may be.’ Does "another fifteen leagues" refer to the total distance from where they stand to the forest? Or only to the distance across the "wide land" between the downs and forest? If the latter, as you surmise, then Aragorn is still wrong: because he says there are eight leagues to the north end of the downs, while the narrator says there are ten leagues from that north end to the forest, and that totals eighteen, not fifteen.
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 21 2008, 8:50pm
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18 seems closer to 15 than 23. Also, do the hunters follow the exact path described by Aragorn when visualizing the map in his head, due north and then due northwest to the "issuing of the Entwash"? Or do they cut off a corner somewhere, or stop short of the issuing of the Entwash? I don't remember them arriving at the "issuing of the Entwash," and I would guess their path would have been longer if they had reached that spot.
As for the orcs, none of them had to look for hobbit tracks along the way. But still, Tolkien has to work a little to put the orcs that far ahead of the hunters.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 21 2008, 9:08pm
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Well, they do follow the downs all the way to their northernmost end, where one down stands apart from the rest, before turning northwest. And they do travel all the way to the "issuing of the Entwash":
Further away, not far from the river, where it came streaming out from the edge of the wood, there was a mound. But I think you're right: it's just an estimate.
Hmm. I've just been reading the Tolkien and Shakespeare collection of last year, edited by Janet Croft. You know where the Hitchcock film's title came from, I expect.
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 21 2008, 9:19pm
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when I did, the wikipedia article shed some doubt on Hitchcock's claim that it came from Hamlet. Still, I suppose Tolkien could have been inspired by Hamlet, althought it is a pretty obscure allusion.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 21 2008, 9:40pm
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I didn't know that; it's interesting that Hitchcock was connecting his title to Hamlet within four years of the film's release.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 21 2008, 9:47pm
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It's ambiguous, but I think Saruman has cast a haze over Rohan that foreshadows Sauron's Great Darkness. Is Saruman's haze a further refutation of Bombadil's claim that nothing that walks on two legs can control the weather?
I believe there is a general spell, brought on the wind. This is a rare instance where the north wind is bad, because Isengard is to the north. Does Saruman cause this North wind, or just use it to his advantage? For that matter, did Sauron make the East wind that brought the volcanic cloud of Mount Doom over Gondor and Rohan, or is he merely a good prognosticator? Might Sauron, rushed into his assault by Aragorn, have been forced to rely on an East wind that blew for less time than he hoped?
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paleostone
Bree
Apr 21 2008, 10:09pm
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I always thought the Eagle was the one that Galadriel was sending out on erands relevant to Gandalf. I haven't read that section in years and my books are at home. I'll have to revisist.
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 22 2008, 1:56am
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I'm sure Sauron and Saruman think
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they control the weather, at least to some extent. But they don't, at least when it matters.
Bombadil's statement seems strange, considering the apparent control not just Saruman and Sauron but also Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf seem to exert over the weather. But I take it as another hint that there is a Higher Power in charge, a Power which assists Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf, and allows Saruman and Sauron just enough rope to hang themselves. The ambiguity is essential, though.
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 22 2008, 9:30am
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33. Why does this last down stand apart from the rest?
Tolkien has a thing for lone hills, mountains, volcanoes, and carrocks. In contrast, his ranges of hills and mountains often blur together into a geographical wall or fence.
34. Comment on the sentence, “They were in a grey formless world without mark or measure.”
It expresses their frustration at being unable to track the hobbits at night.
35. Is the change in wind direction meant to signify anything but variety?
Yes. As I have discussed, in this instance the north wind is a bad sign, since it comes from Isengard.
36. What are some occasions in LotR when Legolas’ aphorism, quoted above, proves true?
The next morning, Helm's Deep, the Siege of Minas Tirith. Morning often brings new counsel and new hope in LotR.
37. Why does Tolkien describe this night and dawn with these words and phrases: “colder”, “hard black vault”, “bare”, “pale and clear”, “bleak”, “bitter light”?
It's the effect of the wind from Isengard, I judge.
38. What does the word “Wold” come from? Why use it?
It's a name for high treeless hill country. It has roots back in Old English. Although the dialogue is more archaic when the hobbits are not about (hence Legolas uses the word "rede," meaning counsel), as narrator Tolkien also tosses in words like this in every chapter, I judge. I generally pick up their meaning from the context.
39. The Hunters, as they recognize, have backtracked a great distance: they had seen the Wold from the River many days earlier. Tolkien didn’t have to write the story or design his map that way: why have the characters circle around like this?
Two reasons come to mind. It emphasizes the way Aragorn turns his back on both Minas Tirith and Mordor in a leap of faith. And it also gives Gandalf a plausible chance to catch up by going directly from Lothlorien to Fangorn.
40. To Legolas viewing the riders, “the glint of morning on the tips of their spears was like the twinkle of minute stars beyond the edge of mortal sight” – what kind of metaphor is that? Does Tolkien mean us to understand that elves can distinguish double stars that cannot be resolved by ordinary human eyes?
I'm not sure about double stars, but Tolkien does imply that elves see many more stars than humans. I don't understand the significance of your link.
41. Why “Yellow is their hair, and bright are their spears” rather than “Their hair is yellow, and their spears are bright”?
It adds variety to a series of declarative sentences, and emphasizes the imagery.
42. Legolas says that Éomer is “very tall”. As tall as Aragorn? Who’s the tallest human character in LotR?
Aragorn, who's a throwback to the giant sea-kings of old. But most of Tolkien's non-hobbit heroes are tall.
43. When Legolas reports no sign of hobbits among the riders, Aragorn says, “I did not say that we should hear good news”. This is rather like his comment during the debate about resting or walking by night: “I said that it was a hard choice”. How would you characterize these comments?
He's not giving his companions any false hopes.
44. “The three companions now left the hill-top, where they might be an easy mark against the pale sky” – is Aragorn remembering the trouble at Weathertop?
I would hope Aragorn learned this lesson long before Weathertop. The question is not why he remembered it here, but why he forgot it back then.
45. Gimli wonders if they are “waiting for sudden death” – do you find that phrase odd?
Grimly humorous, perhaps. They wait patiently for what may turn into something sudden and lethal.
46. Aragorn likens the riders to “the children of Men before the Dark Years”. Would the Rohirrim like being compared to children?
I'm not sure he compares the riders to children. "Children of Men" may be a way of describing the human race. However Aragorn is calling them illiterate, or mostly illiterate. But I judge that he does so in a way that gives them dignity. Calling anyone a throwback to an earlier time seems like a compliment in Tolkien's world.
47. Please comment on “a long line of mail-clad men, swift, shining, fell and fair to look upon”.
It reminds me of the army of singing elves that impresses and scares Smith of Wootton Major. It takes courage to stand up and hail such an army when they are about to ride past without noticing you.
48. These horses with “grey coats” – are they grey or white?
Grey. I think we've established that Shadowfax is grey, not white, while Snowmane has a white mane, not a grey mane.
49. Why are the spears made of ash?
It's a hardwood that is good for such uses. It's still used for bats and axe handles and the like.
50. Where else in the book does someone mistake characters first for orcs and then for elves?
I'm not good at quizzes.
51. What is the vision of a crown that Legolas sees?
It's a glimpse of what Aragorn looks like on the "other side," and I like to think the Nazgul saw it on Weathertop and at the ford where they ran from Aragorn.
52. Éomer says the Rohirrim “desire only to be free, and to live as we have lived, keeping our own, and serving no foreign lord, good or evil”. How are they thus like or unlike the Ents in their present neutrality?
They're like lots of people in Middle-earth, including the hobbits, elves, and dwarves. However the Rohirrim do have close political and economic ties with Gondor. They also have a history of interaction with the Dunlendings and Woses. Thus they don't really keep to themselves, or aren't able to do so, as well as the ents.
53. Why didn’t Faramir, Boromir and Denethor keep the words of the dream secret? Éomer knows it, and in Unfinished Tales (I think), Tolkien wrote that Sauron had the news also.
They might have kept it secret from all but a few but still had reasons to reveal it to their close allies, the royal family of Rohan. Sauron might have discovered it through his spies. Boromir did not know where he was going, so at the very least he had to ask lots of people for directions.
54. Compare Sam’s comments about being part of a story to Aragorn’s remark here that “not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time”.
Sam is less sure that he will become part of future legends. He's wondering about it; Aragorn, as befits his more traditional heroic status, seems confident of it.
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 22 2008, 11:16am
Post #19 of 69
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55. Éomer says that since Gandalf’s visit last fall, “all things have gone amiss” (emphasis added). Remember Aragorn’s words from the chapter’s first section? Did he make the right choice for the wrong reason?
Which choice do you mean? Aragorn didn't choose to break up the Fellowship, but it worked out in the end. So it isn't that he made the right choice for the wrong reason, it's more that he failed to make the right choice, or any choice, so Providence intervened and made the choice for him. However Aragorn's next choice, to follow Merry and Pippin, was the right choice for the right reason, at least in Tolkien's fantasy, where moral choices are likely to be rewarded and immoral choices penalized.
Similarly, Rohan has experienced hard times in large part because Theoden is presently incapable of making choices, and Wormtongue is making choices for him. After Theoden is cured they no longer see themselves as victims, i.e. all going amiss, but rather as valiant fighters in dark times.
56. Shadowfax is described as Théoden’s “most precious” horse – are readers meant to take that word ominously, or does Tolkien use it for ordinary treasures?
I haven't done a word search, but Shadowfax certainly is not evil. However Theoden, at the moment, might be possessive and resentful of Gandalf for winning Shadowfax's affections. So perhaps the idea that Shadowfax is precious to Theoden is ominous, because it says something about Theoden.
57. Had Théoden ever ridden Shadowfax, before Gandalf took him?
I thought not, but I'm open to correction.
58. Shouldn’t the news that Éomer avenged Boromir’s death win him thanks from Théoden?
One would think so, but in Theoden's present mood, he might focus on the bad news first. And it is never pleasant to be the bearer of bad news.
59. “That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise.” Were you surprised, when you first read this of Boromir?
I don't know if I was surprised, but I think I was aware that Boromir won praise, or would have won praise, in a different context, absent the Ring.
60. Éomer also says that Boromir was more “like to the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor”. Does that speak well or ill of Boromir? Of the Rohirrim?
Eomer seems to think it is a compliment. And certainly Denethor fares worse than Theoden in the end, so having the air of Numenor does not necessarily lead to wisdom. But we will learn through Faramir and Aragorn that the descendants of Numenor are capable, at their best, of heights the Rohirrim are unlikely to reach.
61. The Hunters’ journey of 135 miles in four days astonishes Éomer. However, though it’s a significant effort, it’s easily within the abilities of real-world hikers, especially over the relatively flat terrain of Rohan. Is Éomer’s esteem an indication that Tolkien himself wasn’t much for long-distance walking, famously failing to keep pace with the Lewis brothers? Or is it meant to convey a horseman’s poor sense of foot-travel? And why isn’t Éomer more impressed by the faster pace set by the orcs, who managed thirty more miles in thirty-six fewer hours?
Good questions! I don't have answers.
62. Is the name “Wingfoot”, which I don’t believe recurs in LotR, an allusion to anything? Does it connect to anything else in this chapter?
It's yet another name for Aragorn to wear, along with all those names he gave to Eomer. And it's a variation on Strider.
63. If “there are some, close to the king’s ear, that speak craven counsels”, does that mean just Gríma, or others too?
No, it means Grima. Although I suppose that someone obeyed Grima's commands. But if they did so willingly, we don't meet them.
64. Éomer says that Edoras is left with “little guard” in his absence. But this “eored” included only 120 men, yet when Théoden rides west to war at Gandalf’s urging, he has 1,000 men ready in the space of a few hours. Is this an error?
I think Eomer leads the king's guard, who are the best of the best, and also are used to guarding the king. That doesn't mean Edoras is bereft of warriors.
65. “Fifteen of my men I lost, and twelve horses alas!” Do the Rohirrim value horses above men?
No, but almost equal to men.
66. What finally convinces Éomer to aid Aragorn?
Eomer is convinced that he can tell Aragorn is a truthful man, and therefore believes his claims, and his promise to come to Edoras. Fortunately for Eomer, he is right.
(This post was edited by Curious on Apr 22 2008, 11:18am)
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 22 2008, 11:35am
Post #20 of 69
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In no. 23, are you suggesting that Aragorn performs magic?
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23. Why does Aragorn look “pale and drawn” after listening to the earth?
It suggests to me that he has expended quite a bit of his spiritual energy in communing with the earth.
I like your suggestion, if I understand it correctly. At least there may be an ambiguous hint of magic, or something that ordinary men cannot do, and which costs Aragorn a good deal of energy, much like when he looked into the palantir. I thought he was just worried about what he had discovered, or failed to discover, i.e. that the orcs seem to be far away, and the only thing he could hear were distant horsemen growing more distant. But I like your suggestion too.
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 22 2008, 1:07pm
Post #21 of 69
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"Hey Gimli, watch me pull a rabbit out of this hat!" "Aw, that trick never works!"
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Aragorn's process in listening to the earth for signs of their quarry is pretty intense. He seems to be more than just listening - he takes a long time and doesn't move, so that his companions think he's passed out. That, plus the "pale and drawn" description, suggests to me that he is doing something "special".
Later in the book we will see Aragorn bring the victims of the Black Breath back to life with something like the same procedure: Aragorn becomes "distant" to those watching him, as he seeks the sick ones in some other place.
Your post shows that you got my point, and you restate it very well; but your subject line, about Aragorn "performing magic" had me worried. As Galadriel and Gandalf both try to warn us, "magic" in Middle-earth is not something one "performs" like parlor tricks. We should not think of Aragorn as having drawn a spiritual energy card good for two passes of earth-listening or one of orc-hearing!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 22 2008, 1:56pm
Post #22 of 69
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"Grim was his face, grey-hued and weary."
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That's what this part reminded me of.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Apr. 21-27 for "The Uruk-hai".
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 23 2008, 11:42am
Post #23 of 69
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Both Gimli and Éothain think it ridiculous that a dwarf should ride a horse of Rohan, but Legolas, who rides bareback and without gear, persuades Gimli to share his horse. Aragorn rides “Hasufel”, formerly ridden by one “Gárulf”, and Legolas and Gimli ride “Arod”. The Hunters promise to return after their quest is complete; Gimli in particular has unsettled business with Éomer.
67. Insert your own question.
In Old English Éothain means horse-warrior, Hasufel means grey-coat, Garulf means spear-wolf, Arod means swift, and Éomer probably means horse-famous. Clearly Rohirric is Old English, although Tolkien warns us in the appendices that the Rohirrim are not Anglo-Saxons. Still, they have much in common with the Anglo-Saxons, even if there are also significant differences.
As usual, Tolkien's names are descriptive. This is more obvious when Bombadil names the hobbits' ponies Sharp-ears, Wise-nose, Swish-tail and White-socks, and less obvious when the names are written in Old English or invented languages. In the Primary World names like Bill the Pony are more common. Of course William does have a meaning. It comes from Wilhelm, which means will-helmet. But no one thinks of that meaning when we call someone Bill.
Furthermore Tolkien's names are almost always appropriate to the character, even if they were given at birth. In the Primary World names are not nearly so prophetic.
I would argue that from this point forward, the story follows the Rohirrim more than it does the remainder of the Fellowship. Thus we hear in detail about Helm's Deep, and only in retrospect about the Storming of Isengard. Then we follow the Rohirrim to Minas Tirith, and only hear about Aragorn's trip in retrospect. Theoden, Eomer, and Eowyn become central characters, while the hobbits and Aragorn sometimes get shoved into the background. Well, maybe the starting point comes a little later, when we come to Meduseld. But this first introduction to the Rohirrim is more important than first-time readers are likely to realize. So the hunters' promise to return the horses, which seems incidental, is actually the beginning of something big.
68. Why even bother to introduce this second company of orcs?
These are the Mordor orcs who figure prominently in Merry and Pippin's escape. They are so important that Tolkien risks plausibility by having them catch up to the others, even though they got a later start than the three hunters.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 23 2008, 3:48pm
Post #24 of 69
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Tolkien: Jack of All Trades, Master of Storytelling
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I don’t recommend trying to answer all of them.
I love a challenge. That's why I've got so many scars. (Common sense was never my long suit.)
(In fact, I feel confident that no one will do so.)
Ha! I'll show you! (As I post it looks like Curious is determined to as well.)
1.Why are the climbs gentle and the descents steep?
They’re going uphill hydrologically: From the Anduin to the mountains. Any arroyos caused by rain or snow melt would be steep. Of course, they could go up one of the arroyos and guarantee themselves a continuously gradual climb, but they want to go a straight line, so they cut across the steep descents.
2. Is the phrase “unless there is much amiss in Rohan” meant to portend later troubles?
Ya think? Tolkien does a lot of portending in this chapter!
3. In this section, Aragorn is stymied, and makes a decision blindly. Why?
An old military maxim: “Make a decision. NOW!” You have a fifty-fifty chance of being right, and even if you’re wrong you might could still go back and make the right decision. But if you don’t do anything, then you’re just standing there with your pistol in your hand. And I think Aragorn has finally realized he’s more an intuitive guy than a rational guy. When he goes with his heart, things go well. But when he goes with his head, things tend to fall apart. Makes one wonder about the Elessar administration.
4. As I recall, Robin Reid has argued that Tolkien makes natural elements the agents of his sentences and phrases to a great degree, and I believe she cites this section as an example. It depends somewhat on how you diagram the sentences, but as I see it, the following words, in the following order, are the agents in this section: “dusk”, “mist”, “sky”, “stars”, “moon”, “shadows”, “they” (Hunters), “pace”, “trail”, “highlands”, “side of each ridge”, “slopes”, “companions”, “they” (companions), “moon”, “stars”, “light”, “Aragorn”, “orc-trail”, “it” (orc-trail), “they” (orcs), “Legolas”, “that” (orcs’ aim), “you” (Aragorn), “way… northward”, “way… southward”, “they” (orcs), “they”, “Aragorn”, “much”, “power of Saruman”, “they” (orcs), “they” (orcs), and “us”.
Do you think Reid is correct about this section?
The Three Hunters are at the mercy of the weather and the terrain. They can only do their best and hope to overcome the obstacles in their path. Which is all we can do if you think about it.
About this chapter?
They’re following the orcs. It’s the orcs who are at the mercy of the weather and terrain. So the natural elements determine the orcs’ path, and the orcs determine the Three Hunters’ path. There’s a degree of regression in there.
About Tolkien’s work generally?
The nature of the geography of Middle-earth does seem to shape its history. One wonders if the story LOTR was inspired by language, but shaped by geography. I seem to remember a letter where he said that the language came first, then the geography, then the story and characters last, but apparently Tolkien tended to “dissemble” so who knows?.
If so, what effect does that have on the reader?
If subtle it increases the tension for the reader. If blatant (Like, say, Jack London’s “The White Silence”) it says the world is not a very nice place. (And I think Tolkien wants to show Middle-earth is mostly a pretty nice place.)
5. This section seems to presage the journey of Sam and Frodo, in “The Land of Shadow”, along the valley between the Mountains of Shadow and the Morgai (the inner fence of Mordor). That is also a journey north, and also includes a dead orc. Is this a real connection, and if so, why?
The Three Hunters of the West are questing in a doubtful hope to save two Hobbits. The Three Hunters of the East are questing in a foolish hope to save all Hobbits. (And Men, and Elves, and Ents, and everything.)
6. Is there significance in the image of seeming boulders being revealed as bodies?
Well, there’s Tolkien’s general theme of works of Evil being mockeries of the real deal, usually made out of rock or stone or slime or mud. Plus there’s also the reversal of the first sighting of Bilbo’s trolls, with bodies being revealed as boulders.
7. Why are they refreshed?
Second wind. Or in hiking jargon, they’ve “topped the hill”. Literally. (Nice bit of hiking humor here!) You can tell Tolkien was an experienced hiker.
8. Does a “chill wind” normally accompany daybreak in the real world?
Depends on the geography. Some morning winds like the European Bora are cold, others like the African Bergwind are hot.
(And which way is this wind blowing?)
If it’s a “katabatic” wind, it’s coming down from the snows of the Misty Mountains. If it’s meant to be the Bora Winds, it signals they’ve entered what will become Southern Europe. This is a subtle indication of the crossing of a boundary. Again, Tolkien is paying attention to his geography. (Ironically, in Tolkien’s land of birth, the South African katabatic wind, the Bergwind, tends to be hot.)
9. Aragorn had already decided that his path lay neither east with Frodo nor south to Minas Tirith – why does Tolkien have him express his desire for Gondor here?
As I said, the morning wind signals that they have crossed into the realms of the south, including Gondor. So he’s making a standard invocation at crossing a boundary, so they enter with good luck. So they hope.
10. Does the poem bear on any further action in this chapter?
“Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!
West Wind blew there; the light upon the Silver Tree
Fell like bright rain in gardens of the Kings of old.
O proud walls! White towers! O wingéd crown and throne of gold!
O Gondor, Gondor! Shall Men behold the Silver Tree,
Or West Wind blow again between the Mountains and the Sea?”
Seems clear enough. The West Wind comes from the direction of Rohan. And Rohan’s King Theoden will rise to become as one of the Rohirrim Kings of old. And the High King Elessar will indeed come to Gondor out of the mountains (through the Dwimorberg) and the sea (from Pelagir). Elessar will come into Gondor driven by the West Wind, wear the Winged Crown, and will bring the seedling of the White Tree down from the mountains. So says Elessar the Prophet, currently indeed without honor in his own land.
11. Why is the cliff called a “Wall”?
Because it is. It forms a geological wall between the Emyn Muil and Rohan.
Why the “strange suddenness” of separation between hills in winter and fields in spring?
The green of the fields are of course the result of all the soil and nutrients being washed off the Emyn Muil. Again, Tolkien knows his geography. Like he could take a single word and work how it changed within a language, so he could take a single geographic feature and work out how it changed the surrounding terrain.
Like William Blake:
"To see a world in a grain of sand
And heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
And eternity in an hour."
So Tolkien can see a whole world in a single geographic feature, or an entire culture in a single idomatic phrase.
12. Why show us the eagle again?
It’s Tolkien using the theatrical principle of “Chekhov’s gun”: If you have a gun as a prop early in a play, it has to be used by the last act. Similarly, the eagles at the end of ROTK are presaged by their appearances in TTT. They’re really not as much a deus machina as everyone says.
13. Who makes the hard, grey bread the orcs eat?
The hard, grey Isengard bakers of Rainbow Bread, “The Bread of Many Colors”!
Who makes their heavy shoes?
"Uglúk had a little shoe
Its sole was full of air
And anyone that Uglúk raced
Didn't have a prayer"
-Nike: “Just do it for manflesh.”
14. What is the connection between these “softer and warmer” fields and the groves of Ithilien?
They’re both fertile lowlands, recipients of nutrient rich runoff from surrounding mountains. Tolkien knows his geography.
Between these “scented” lands and the stink of the Marshes on the other side of the Emyn Muil?
The fertile Marshes are a case of too much water runoff. One wonders if King Elessar would assign Legolas to preserve the habitat of the Marshes’ flora and fauna, or else contract with Gimli to start a large-scale dam and drainage project. A common dilemma for national leaders: the environment or the economy.
15. How is it the orcs have “blackened” the grass?
Their heavy weight has compacted the grass.
Does that mean simply that they have trod it heavily into the earth, or have the stained the grass in some other way?
It’s a typical phenomenon caused by improper use of rollers during lawn maintenance. One uses a lawn roller to flatten the turf to provide good seed-soil contact after seeding, or to provide good sod-soil contact after sodding. Some places, such as golf courses, use rollers to uniformly flatten the underlying surface, such as golf course greens. The use of rollers on wet grass will typically cause “bruised and blackened grass”, exactly as Tolkien describes. Tolkien knows his gardening! BTW, if one uses a lawn roller to flatten the unevenness of soil, one should then go over the soil again with a spike roller to reaerate the soil.
16. Is “Not idly do the leaves of Lórien fall” a known proverb in Middle-earth, or has Aragorn just made it up?
One would assume when autumn came to Lórien it would be at Galadriel’s behest.
17. Legolas laments the hobbits being “driven like cattle”. How does he feel about cattle treated that way?
Mirkwood Elves probably prefer free-range venison.
18. Aragorn says, “You give the choice to an ill chooser… Since we passed through the Argonath my choices have gone amiss.” What have his choices been, and how have they gone wrong?
He’s chosen to stand around and dither rather than act. If he’d gone with his heart instead of trying to use his head they’d be a lot closer to overtaking the Uruks.
19. Does he make the right choice here?
As he says, his choice is already made: By the natural element of the moon’s light. Or rather the lack of it.
20. Legolas says he has no idea how three pursuers will free the hobbits from so many orcs. Should the companions be looking for assistance in defeating the orcs, rather than racing to catch them, which if achieved might prove disastrous?
One thing at a time. Besides, they may find friends along the way as they’re tracking the Uruks. (“You may find friends along your way when you least look for it”.)
21. Why remind us of Frodo’s light here?
Tolkien has split his tale into two storylines. Normally when a writer does this the technique of “parallelism” is used in order to keep the reader’s interest. However, master storyteller Tolkien uses subtle techniques to lead the reader himself into invoking parallelism within their own mind. (As you read you’re going “Yeah, that’s right! I wonder what Frodo and Sam are doing now?”) By contrast Jackson embraces standard paralleism. His films intercut the multiple storylines with frequent breakaways from one set of characters to another. Again, to keep the movie-goer’s interest during a three hour movie. I remember this change by Jackson was irksome to you.
22. Legolas is described as “thoughtful and silent as a young tree in a windless night”. An odd simile?
Tolkien is foreshadowing the Ents. Possibly even Bregalad specifically.
23. Why does Aragorn look “pale and drawn” after listening to the earth?
First, as he admits he had troubled dreams, so what sleep he’s got hasn’t helped much. Second, waiting is never easy. Third, he was staking everything on being able to better track the orcs at dawn and his gamble doesn’t look like it’s turning out well.
The land slowly rises as they approach “humpbacked” downs, on their second day on the plains. They are sustained by lembas and masked by their elven-cloaks. Aragorn finds it strange that the fields are empty, where normally there would be herds and herdsmen (though most of the Rohirrim actually live far to the south).
Yes. Raiding the herds would be the opening actions of their enemies during a war, so the Rohirrim have wisely withdrawn their exposed livestock to safety. Of course they’re going to have to slaughter a lot of them since presumably the stored forage won’t be enough for all the livestock, but with all the refugees to feed they’d have to do that anyway.
24. Why the description of the Hunters blending into the landscape?
To foreshadow the cloaks’ ability when Gollum cannot detect Frodo and Sam. Plus it excuses the fact that the highly skilled eagle-eyed Rohirrim cannot spot them so the failure doesn’t diminish Eomer as much. And it perfectly sets up the Three Hunters dramatic entrance of seemingly popping up out of the grass.
25. What is the “silence that did not seem to be the quiet of peace”?
That typical “oppressive silence” that just about every writer refers to. It’s interesting that in German the phrase for “oppressive silence” (“bedrückende stille”) has a slight demonic connotation.
26. Aragorn suspects “even the pale Moon” – has Saruman brought clouds to the sky, or is it an illusion?
I’d suppose this is a figure of speech. I interpret it that Aragorn suspects the trail that the light of the pale moon reveals, not the moon itself.
27. How does Saruman tire the trio?
His voice. To reject its pleas and commands required an effort of mind and will, which if constant would over time indeed tire the Three Hunters. And Saruman desperately wants the ring so I assume his attention is constant. Look at how quickly he comes when he loses mental contact with the orcs.
Is his power meant for them specifically, or is there a general spell on northern Rohan?
As it’s explained in the chapter The Voice of Saruman, his voice can act over vast distances. And of those who had heard it, “None were unmoved, and none rejected its pleas and commands without an effort of mind and will”. The voice might not be specifically directed at the Three Hunters. However, it is undoubtedly directed at the Isengard orcs: “when they were far away, and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them”. In any case, at least half of Aragorn’s speculation seems very likely (“some will that lends speed to our foes”) so why not a bit of VOS “power bleed” that gives credence to the other?
28. Legolas first noticed Saruman’s will 36 hours earlier – why didn’t he mention it before?
Legolas apparently knows group psychology. He’ll make a good leader some day. It’s like near the end of a party when one person yawns and then everyone starts yawning. Or like when one person in a group says they’re tired, or hungry, or need to use the bathroom and suddenly everyone needs to rest, or eat, or use the restroom. So Legolas has kept his negative feelings to himself to avoid “infecting” the others. Good man! (Er, that is, Elf!)
29. Is Aragorn’s reference to their “road between down and fen” merely descriptive?
“Between the Mountains and the Marsh” might have been a bit too cutesy alliterative at this point
Legolas wakes the others at a “red dawn”; he feels they are “called”.
Many are called but few are chosen.
30. This is the morning that Merry and Pippin escape, and Éomer’s men destroy the orcs. What about those events should move Legolas to interpret the red sky as tiding “strange” events at the forest?
Hobbits are unknown to Ents and Fangorn. When old fuddy duddy Ents meet young whipper snapper Hobbits things are going to get pretty strange. (Or “hilarity ensues” as a network shill would put it.)
31. Why does Aragorn say “thrice twelve hours” rather than “thirty-six hours”?
There are three twelve-hour shifts of running and sleeping. It’s kind of like how a sailor would say “eight bells” instead of “four hours”, or “four watches” rather than “sixteen hours”.
32. Aragorn guesses that 45 miles lie between the other end of these downs and the forest, but the next morning we will be told that it is 30 miles. Is this a mistake by Tolkien, or is the difference meant to show Aragorn’s fallibility? (Or did the imagined text have two different editors?)
Lessee. Starting from point A, 8 leagues north to point B, then 15 leagues northwest to point C. And the distance from point A to point C is 10 leagues. Well, we don’t know if the triangle made by the three points is a right triangle, so we have to use the general formula. Hmmmm. …. Now just get out my CRC book of trig tables. …. Got it! (I’m sure you guys will check my math.) So at daybreak the Three Hunters set off at an angle of 38 degrees to the northwest. That makes sense to me. Tolkien knows his trigonometry!
Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli travel another 24 miles by day’s end. Only Legolas is not tired, and he leads them to the crest of the last hill…
Again, Legolas shows good leadership. He makes sure the Three Hunters end the day with an accomplishment (“Let’s go up on to this green hill”) rather than let them stop at the foot of the hill with an unfinished task literally looming over them all night. Tolkien knows his leadership.
33. Why does this last down stand apart from the rest?
It’s a border, a boundary. The Three Hunters are passing from the chase to the hunt.
34. Comment on the sentence, “They were in a grey formless world without mark or measure.”
That does nicely describe being on top of a little hill on a dark night. It also recalls the Hobbits on the Barrow Downs. You think the Three Hunters will be captured by a Wight?
35. Is the change in wind direction meant to signify anything but variety?
Gondor is now to the East of them. The East Wind is now not from Mordor, but from Gondor. The spirit of Gondor is now literally behind Aragorn. And this is the first of the winds that will propel King Elessar home.
36. What are some occasions in LotR when Legolas’ aphorism, quoted above, proves true?
I note that aphorisms about advice ("rede”) seem to be pretty common with Elves. Their tendency for navel gazing and thinking in circles is typified by their always dispensing advice about advice. That seems to give a big clue as to the cause of the Elves’ decline.
37. Why does Tolkien describe this night and dawn with these words and phrases: “colder”, “hard black vault”, “bare”, “pale and clear”, “bleak”, “bitter light”?
That’s pretty much how it feels camping on top of a hill. I camp out on a private bit of land out near Benjamin Texas. Our site is up on a hill and boy does it get cold. And on a moonless night you can’t see a thing. But when a new moon is out everything looks so pale you could swear the ground below is covered in snow. Tolkien knows his camping!
38. What does the word “Wold” come from?
It’s a nice Anglo-Saxon word.
Why use it?
So Tolkien can imagine it being shortened over time to “The Old of Rohan”.
39. The Hunters, as they recognize, have backtracked a great distance: they had seen the Wold from the River many days earlier. Tolkien didn’t have to write the story or design his map that way: why have the characters circle around like this?
“Sometimes the way forward is the way back.”
-Jim Henson, T.S. Eliot, and Heraclitus of Ephesus
40. To Legolas viewing the riders, “the glint of morning on the tips of their spears was like the twinkle of minute stars beyond the edge of mortal sight” – what kind of metaphor is that?
A nice Anglo-Saxon one.
Does Tolkien mean us to understand that elves can distinguish double stars that cannot be resolved by ordinary human eyes?
Historically the test of good eyesight was how many of the Seven Sisters one could see. A really good eagle eye could see eight or nine. Of course the Pleiades is actually a star cluster with over a thousand catalogued stars. Curiously enough, it is also known as the Maia Nebula. Coincidence? I think not!! Tolkien knows his astonomy!
41. Why “Yellow is their hair, and bright are their spears” rather than “Their hair is yellow, and their spears are bright”?
Because the important things are the color and the brightness.
42. Legolas says that Éomer is “very tall”. As tall as Aragorn?
Well, he’s a horseman so a lot of that height is negated by the bowed legs.
Who’s the tallest human character in LotR?
“Tall Paul” Randall, who was Ian McKellen’s scale double.
43. When Legolas reports no sign of hobbits among the riders, Aragorn says, “I did not say that we should hear good news”. This is rather like his comment during the debate about resting or walking by night: “I said that it was a hard choice”. How would you characterize these comments?
It’s like Legolas’ earlier omission about feeling Saruman’s will. He’s trying not to spread negativity.
44. “The three companions now left the hill-top, where they might be an easy mark against the pale sky” – is Aragorn remembering the trouble at Weathertop?
He’s remembering a very basic military tenet: Don’t provide your enemy with an easy target. Don’t silhouette yourself!!
45. Gimli wonders if they are “waiting for sudden death” – do you find that phrase odd?
Well, obviously he’s a bit more vocal in his pessimism than Aragorn or Legolas. But as Mr. Gibbs said in POTC, “Everyone's thinking it, I'm just saying it!”
46. Aragorn likens the riders to “the children of Men before the Dark Years”. Would the Rohirrim like being compared to children?
This is said in reference to the Rohirrim not writing any books. Well, young children are usually illiterate. Maybe after the Rohirrim publish a bit Aragorn will feel they’re a bit more bit more mature. Until then he’s not going to give any of them tenure.
47. Please comment on “a long line of mail-clad men, swift, shining, fell and fair to look upon”.
Ever see the changing of the guard in London? Especially on nice days when they include the horsemen in their shining armor? Wonderful!!
48. These horses with “grey coats” – are they grey or white?
Yes. “Grey horses” are usually black skinned with white hair.
49. Why are the spears made of ash?
Ash produces tools and weapons that are both strong and resilient. (Like hobbits!) Heroes like Achilles use ash spears. And in Beowulf an army of soldiers carrying spears is likened to a forest of ash. In a bit of Anglo-Saxon humor Hrothgar’s most trusted right hand advisor is named “Aeschere”, or “ash army”. Indeed, I bet Theodore Roosevelt’s “big stick” was made of ash.
50. Where else in the book does someone mistake characters first for orcs and then for elves?
The arrival of the Elves at Helm’s Deep: “That is no orc horn!”
Then there’s Treebeard with the Hobbits.
(With all the mistaken identities this is sounding like a combination of Shakespeare and French farce! And supposedly Tolkien disliked both?)
51. What is the vision of a crown that Legolas sees?
The Star of Elendil. It was the glow of the Elendilmir on his forehead that allowed the orcs to target Isildur in the dark. Result: A king full of orc arrows. (So Boromir did get to die like a king!) A neon sign saying “Here I am!” is not always a good idea for a crown.
52. Éomer says the Rohirrim “desire only to be free, and to live as we have lived, keeping our own, and serving no foreign lord, good or evil”. How are they thus like or unlike the Ents in their present neutrality?
They both sound like they took to heart George Washington’s Farewell Address.
53. Why didn’t Faramir, Boromir and Denethor keep the words of the dream secret?
Speaking of Founding Fathers, as Ben Franklin said, “Three may keep a secret if two of them are dead.” They probably went around asking all the Wise in Gondor what the dream meant and the next thing everyone knows about it. Sounds like Washington D.C. Leaks like a sieve. Obviously Denethor needs to call in G. Gordon Liddy.
Éomer knows it, and in Unfinished Tales (I think), Tolkien wrote that Sauron had the news also.
“His gaze pierces cloud, shadow, earth, flesh, underwear.” Who knew that those X-Ray glasses on the back of all those comic books actually worked?
54. Compare Sam’s comments about being part of a story to Aragorn’s remark here that “not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time”.
Legends, like history, are written by the victors. Usually nobody knows it’s history (or legend) when it’s happening. (BTW, another point for the “memoir” conceit.)
55. Éomer says that since Gandalf’s visit last fall, “all things have gone amiss” (emphasis added). Remember Aragorn’s words from the chapter’s first section? Did he make the right choice for the wrong reason?
I don’t think so. Trust is never a wrong reason for Tolkien.
56. Shadowfax is described as Théoden’s “most precious” horse – are readers meant to take that word ominously, or does Tolkien use it for ordinary treasures?
Nice catch.
57. Had Théoden ever ridden Shadowfax, before Gandalf took him?
You mean like the relationship between Alferd Packer and Liane in “Cannibal! The Musical” (1996)? Yeah, that did sort of set Packer off when the trapper Loutzenheiser rode his horse.
But I think no. That’s why Theoden was so angry. It was unthinkable that a proud unridable horse of Rohan could be ridden by a mere Wizard! Horrors! (A bit of Rohirrim jingoism there, no?)
58. Shouldn’t the news that Éomer avenged Boromir’s death win him thanks from Théoden?
Yeah, but definitely not from the Saruman part of his personality.
59. “That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise.” Were you surprised, when you first read this of Boromir?
Not really. Boromir always seemed like a good warrior to me. Big, bold, strong, dumb as nails.
60. Éomer also says that Boromir was more “like to the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor”. Does that speak well or ill of Boromir?
Nice pun!! I’m thinking of Shakespeare again, specifically Mercutio during his death scene in Romeo and Juliet: “Ask for me tomorrow and you shall find me a grave man.”
“Pippin gazed in growing wonder at the great stone city, vaster and more splendid than anything that he had dreamed of; greater and stronger than Isengard, and far more beautiful. Yet it was in truth falling year by year into decay; and already it lacked half the men that could have dwelt at ease there. In every street they passed some great house or court over whose door and arched gates were carved many fair letters of strange and ancient shapes: names Pippin guessed of great men and kindreds that had once dwelt there; and yet now they were silent, and no footsteps rang on their wide pavements, nor voice was heard in their halls, nor any face looked out from door or empty window.”
Yep, Gondor: The Land of the Free and the Home of the Grave.
Of the Rohirrim?
The Rohirrim may be the Men of Twilight, but they’re also the Men of the Future. It’s significant that it was Boromir who wondered how many years a Steward might rule before he became a King. Boromir was a forward looking man, not one that, like the “grave Men of Gondor”, lived in the past.
61. The Hunters’ journey of 135 miles in four days astonishes Éomer. However, though it’s a significant effort, it’s easily within the abilities of real-world hikers, especially over the relatively flat terrain of Rohan. Is Éomer’s esteem an indication that Tolkien himself wasn’t much for long-distance walking, famously failing to keep pace with the Lewis brothers?
Hey! No fair! I doubt I could do a twenty mile hike anymore either! But one can well imagine young Lieutenant Tolkien and his men making similar time in forced marches back and forth from the rear to the trenches and back again. Tolkien knows his marching!
Or is it meant to convey a horseman’s poor sense of foot-travel?
One can well imagine Eomer to be typical of the Rohirrim in being bow-legged. And wearing healed boots. With apologies to Nancy Sinatra, riding boots are not made for walking.
And why isn’t Éomer more impressed by the faster pace set by the orcs, who managed thirty more miles in thirty-six fewer hours?
Orcs are beasts. Of course beasts would go faster. That’s why the Rohirrim ride horses.
62. Is the name “Wingfoot”, which I don’t believe recurs in LotR, an allusion to anything?
An allusion to Mercury. Or Thomas Mann.
Does it connect to anything else in this chapter?
The wings of eagles. And maybe Balrogs.
63. If “there are some, close to the king’s ear, that speak craven counsels”, does that mean just Gríma, or others too?
I’ve always assumed just Grima. The phrase would seem to be an ironic figure of speech. Like, say, a teacher fixing a distracted student with a stern eye and going “There are some of us who don’t seem to be paying attention.” (Specifically Mrs. MacFadden in the second grade, but I’m not saying if it was me that she was glaring at.)
64. Éomer says that Edoras is left with “little guard” in his absence. But this “eored” included only 120 men, yet when Théoden rides west to war at Gandalf’s urging, he has 1,000 men ready in the space of a few hours. Is this an error?
It’s accurate. If guards are a few hours away then they’re not much use.
65. “Fifteen of my men I lost, and twelve horses alas!” Do the Rohirrim value horses above men?
No, but they feel more responsibility towards horses. It’s one thing to lead men who have freely and willingly made oaths of fealty into battle and death. It’s quite another to take loyal and trusting animals into harm’s way. The Rohirrim have a sense of stewardship for their horses.
66. What finally convinces Éomer to aid Aragorn?
“You I have not seen before, for you are young, but I have spoken with to Éomund your father, and with Théoden son of Thengel. Never in former days would any high lord of this land have constrained a man to abandon such a quest as mine. My duty at least is clear, to go on. Come now, son of Éomund….”
Down here in Texas “I knew your father” would be something that would definitely tip the scales in someone’s favor.
67. Insert your own question.
Is it coincidence that later Eomer will be caught in the nets of the Lady of Rivendell?
Also: Compare the Anglo-Saxon concept of woman as a “Peace-weaver” with Eomer’s accusation of female as “net-weaver”. What does this say about the Rohirrim attitude towards women? Is this why Men are really suspicious of Elves? Does this explain the waning of the Shieldmaiden tradition?
68. Why even bother to introduce this second company of orcs?
To foreshadow the dissention within the group. And actually there are three companies of orcs: The Isengarders (Uruks), the Northerners (Moria Goblins), and the Mordor orcs.
69. Why do the Rohirrim use “grey-feathered” arrows?
Most birds have grey feathers. It helps them hide. Wing feathers especially tend to be grey. Tolkien knows his birds!
70. Since Elrond, as Aragorn will soon note, likens Fangorn to the Old Forest, what are we to make of the connection between the bonfire glades in the two woods?
It ominously foreshadows another sentient tree. Only instead of a dangerous Old Man Willow we’re surprised by a kindly Treebeard. (At least in this version of the tale.)
71. The orc-head belongs to one of Saruman’s company, i.e. a large orc (in fact it is Uglúk, leader of the uruk-hai, but we don’t know that name yet), but is described as a “goblin” – are the words wholly interchangeable for Tolkien?
At least to the presumed writer of the tale. But I’m sure Tolkien knew the difference, and Uglúk would definitely take offense to being taken for one of the “Northerners”.
72. Are the spears by the mound pointed up or down?
Up of course! The Rohirrim died with their spears up, not down!! Plus I’m thinking the number of spears represents the dead warriors’ kills.
73. Why does Gimli sound like Celeborn when the elf-lord learned of Gandalf’s death?
Because he much desired to speak with him.
74. Responding to Gimli, Aragorn says, “There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark.” How can one tell those things from tasks that should be refused?
“Eru grant me the serenity to accept the tasks I must begin, the courage to refuse the tasks I must not, and the wisdom to tell the difference. And the sense not to bother the Elves for advice.”
You cannot refuse your Wyrd, even if the end may be dark.
75. Is the “spreading … chestnut” a reference to Longfellow? Tolkien had read at least “Hiawatha”.
I’m thinking it’s the chestnut skin of Treebeard. The tree is an Ent gone tree-ish!
76. Is it only the warnings about Fangorn that cause Aragorn to have a different attitude toward fire here than he held at Weathertop?
There’s also the Old Forest.
77. Why would a tree like fire?
It’s suicidal.
Why is this tree given human characteristics?
Because it’s an Ent. And it’s foreshadowing. Later we’ll meet a whole mess (or moot) of trees with human characteristics!
And why is its apparent joy followed by this sentence: “There was a silence, for suddenly the dark and unknown forest, so near at hand, made itself felt as a great brooding presence, full of secret purpose”?
It’s one with the Heart of the Forest. And the Heart of the Forest is now here. And boy is it upset!!
78. What are Aragorn’s and Tolkien’s beliefs about “fables that Men have made as true knowledge fades”?
"That [Prince Imrahil] is a fair lord and a great captain of men," said Legolas. "If Gondor has such men still in these days of fading, great must have been its glory in the days of its rising."
And doubtless the good stone-work is the older and was wrought in the first building," said Gimli. "It is ever so with the things that Men begin: there is a frost in Spring, or a blight in Summer, and they fail of their promise."
Yet seldom do they fail of their seed," said Legolas. "And that will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-for. The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimli."
"And yet come to naught in the end but might-have-beens, I guess," said the Dwarf.
"To that the Elves know not the answer," said Legolas.
79. If Fangorn and the Old Forest are “the last strongholds of the mighty woods of the Elder Days”, does that mean that Mirkood is younger? Or different in some other way?
Unlike Fangorn and the Old Forest, Mirkwood is infested with Elves.
80. Is this the first time we read of the company drawing lots?
There was the time on Caradhras where they decided to eat Pippin. Wait, that was in “Barely Started Tales”. Never mind.
Actually I’m curious about they used for lots. Pebbles? Straws? Pieces of papert? Playing cards? Or maybe Aragorn had a bag of runes? Maybe the Loremaster was also a Runemaster?
81. This section emphasizes the coldness of the night – why?
Night is cold.
82. Apart from the comments between elf and dwarf here, is this chapter wanting for humor?
I’m still chuckling over “the grave Men of Gondor”.
83. Aragorn has “more need of thought than of sleep” and takes what remains of Gimli’s watch. Gandalf does the same with Pippin in the well-room in Moria. And Aragorn again does this after Frodo sees Gollum along the River. Are we meant to connect these scenes, and if so, why?
Character development. They’re being protective. Leaders. Father figures.
84. This chapter reads like a detective story.
Harumph!! Right in the middle of an adventure!! It’s like The Caine Mutiny. They lure you in with the promise you’re going to see an action packed war picture and the next thing you know you’re watching a court room drama!! (True, a very good courtroom drama, but it’s still false advertising!!)
How successful is the mystery for first-time readers?
Not very successful if they’re wondering “What the heck happened with Frodo and Sam?????” It’s like when I first saw Disney’s “Alice in Wonderland” I spent the whole movie wondering what happened to Alice’s cat!
What compensations does it offer for returning readers who know how the questions will be resolved?
It’s like how Sherlock Holmes fanatics (like me) go over and over “The Canon” with a fine-toothed comb. It’s a pleasure working through it again and again and noticing little things. (Even if they’re not there!) It’s not an exercise for everyone. There’s always people saying “What’s the point?” (And even within the community there's people who will stridently regard certain lines of inquiry as a waste of time.)
Hey! That all the questions!! Whoo hoo!!!
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 24 2008, 4:53am
Post #25 of 69
(2286 views)
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Yes, it's Gwaihir working for Gandalf and Galadriel.
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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What I meant was: does he appear in the story at this point for a reason other than being referred to later by Galadriel.
Another question: is Gandalf just staying in one place, waiting for Gwaihir to return with news? If not, how does Gwaihir find Gandalf, who is apparently in Fangorn Forest, and thus not easy to see?
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Apr. 21-27 for "The Uruk-hai".
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